Re: What do you gain from enlightment
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Originally Posted by
Terry
I am not sure if any of that made sense but was curious about your view on this and I do understand the balance you are going for and maybe this isn't something that is applicable to you at least right now.
My view on what? I'm not sure if you mean the stuff about narrow-thinking religionists (they come in all shapes and flavours, by the way; it's not limited to Christianity, and some people turn politics or other cultural things into what amounts to a cultish religion, too). Or my view on the middle ground? :)
I think the only thing for the middle ground and getting there and staying there is going to be the only thing that I know for sure works: intention plus surrender. Set the intention and then completely let go of it and surrender to whatever process or events come up. It always works, though it can be a strange ride at times. I don't know how, can't figure out how, am unlikely to work it out, so I'll just have to intend it and release it and see how it unfolds. And it will. That much I definitely have experienced all my life.
Oh, and something else I've experienced pretty much all my life is disappointment and dismay in humanity. I still carry that with me. I don't suppose I will ever think highly of humanity. I may love, like, respect, and otherwise think well of individual persons, but humanity as a whole is a pretty unpleasant sort of thing. I've been chastised for this attitude plenty of times (on these forums, as well), but that's how this material mind interprets the stuff it has experienced. Maybe if I could change that, I might experience humanity in a different way. I probably would, in fact. To be entirely honest, I'm not sure I want to change it. I'll have to meditate on this and see why that might be the case (thank you for your post, it helped me to focus on that :)).
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
I've read a quote somewhere by a Zen master that said, in essence, that there is is no enlightened individual, just enlightened being and living. Just like with the Guru--some people focus on the Guru and don't realize that they should be focusing on his samadhi. The state of samadhi is much bigger and more pervasive than the individual personality can ever be. In my own efforts at ego-control, I am wary to ever make any sort of personal claim of enlightenment. I am far from a perfect being, and have a long way to go on this path.
I have, however, had experiences that seem to be genuine glimpses of enlightened consciousness, and while it is truly extraordinary, it is also the most ordinary thing imaginable. (Being filled with ecstasy staring at a cloud, looking at a tree, or in the seemingly banal process of walking somewhere--if I told people about my state of absorption at that time they would likely think I'm nuts). It's a lot like falling in love--but with everything and nothing at the same time. Based from my experience trying to function in the modern world, I would argue that periodic states of enlightened being present their own challenges. (Sitting and being content with the beauty of existence kind of goes against essentially all of our Western sources of motivation). I've gained little other than genuine peace of mind and increased fortitude. I still face incredible challenges and difficulties; I still have personality aspects that are less than spiritually ideal. But these are punctuated by these incredible states of being and a more prevailing sense of "wholeness" in my heart.
Starting off on the spiritual path as a teenager, I was looking for power and "special" abilities. What I've ended up with is the opposite, and I'm quite okay with that.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheFifth
I've read a quote somewhere by a Zen master that said, in essence, that there is is no enlightened individual, just enlightened being and living.
Indeed. Consciousness becomes aware of Itself. It's always all about Consciousness, and never about the individual (even if ego-self does jump in and claim it, just because that's what ego-self does).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheFifth
Being filled with ecstasy staring at a cloud, looking at a tree, or in the seemingly banal process of walking somewhere--if I told people about my state of absorption at that time they would likely think I'm nuts
Yes, I know what you mean. :) I had a most extraordinary bliss experience drinking a glass of cold water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheFifth
I was looking for power and "special" abilities. What I've ended up with is the opposite, and I'm quite okay with that.
A lot of people start out that way. I probably had some notion of it, myself, when, during puberty, I read a book on various occult things (palm reading, card reading, how to use a pendulum, dream interpretation, and on and on). The book had a final chapter that touched on Eastern style mysticism, and was my first introduction to the notion of chakras. I was amazed to read that at the highest levels of yogic attainment, practitioners were said to be able to experience the instant realisation of any desire. I remember thinking how awesome that would be, and while I never took up yoga in the physical sense (I do meditate, but it was not through the Eastern style path), some seed was planted, I think.
I now have a much better understanding of what was meant by that whole instant realisation of desires thing, and it's not as straightforward (in material terms) as it sounded in that book! ;) :)
I can't say I ever got on a spiritual path, though. I've always been a mystic, it's jut my nature. There was never any conscious decision on my part. For me, the dabbling in ways to control my environment (I looked into all kinds of stuff, from magick to prayer to everything else) was kind of secondary. The mysticism was always present, and everything else was secondary (and generally ego based).
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ButterflyWoman
A lot of people start out that way. I probably had some notion of it, myself, when, during puberty, I read a book on various occult things (palm reading, card reading, how to use a pendulum, dream interpretation, and on and on). The book had a final chapter that touched on Eastern style mysticism, and was my first introduction to the notion of chakras. I was amazed to read that at the highest levels of yogic attainment, practitioners were said to be able to experience the instant realization of any desire. I remember thinking how awesome that would be, and while I never took up yoga in the physical sense (I do meditate, but it was not through the Eastern style path), some seed was planted, I think.
All the occult stuff just got me started; the core of my interest in a lot of it was soul searching--a deep yearning for spiritual connection and experience. You can really only conceptualize it according to your maturity at the time.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
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Originally Posted by
outofbodydude
It sounds like what you are speaking of is a temporary state of "enlightenment" or loss of ego identity, as opposed to true enlightenment, which is the end goal of the Buddhist path. True enlightenment, liberation, Nibbana, whatever you wish to call it, is said to be a state of complete detachment from the attachments, aversions, identifications, and delusions of the mind, it is liberation from all forms of suffering, it is true freedom, a completely unconditioned state of being that has the highest forms of happiness, love, compassion, and equanimity as it's attributes. This state is said to be a direct result of the skillfully directed practice of the 8 fold path laid out by the Buddha. The temporary experience you have described seems like it would be rather unsatisfactory when compared to final liberation.
There's that word, "final"
complete, done, finished etc.
One problem with that, an infinite being is never finished, it just keeps on having "experience" or growth or whatever word you prefer.
There are infinite realities, universes, dimensions and probable realities.
However expansive our view, it just keeps expanding, there is no end to it.
Your very thoughts and emotions seed universes, whether you know it or not.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ButterflyWoman
Oh, and something else I've experienced pretty much all my life is disappointment and dismay in humanity. I still carry that with me. I don't suppose I will ever think highly of humanity. I may love, like, respect, and otherwise think well of individual persons, but humanity as a whole is a pretty unpleasant sort of thing. I've been chastised for this attitude plenty of times (on these forums, as well), but that's how this material mind interprets the stuff it has experienced. Maybe if I could change that, I might experience humanity in a different way. I probably would, in fact. To be entirely honest, I'm not sure I want to change it. I'll have to meditate on this and see why that might be the case (thank you for your post, it helped me to focus on that :)).
I've often had that feeling of disappointment in humanity as a species. But inherent in that feeling is another feeling, one of knowing that we can do better. If we did not care deeply for our species we would not experience disappointment, but total apathy.
Life is growth, in this system or any other.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
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Originally Posted by
John Sorensen
There's that word, "final"
complete, done, finished etc.
One problem with that, an infinite being is never finished, it just keeps on having "experience" or growth or whatever word you prefer.
There are infinite realities, universes, dimensions and probable realities.
However expansive our view, it just keeps expanding, there is no end to it.
Your very thoughts and emotions seed universes, whether you know it or not.
My mistake for not being more clear. The "final liberation" I was speaking of is solely in reference to our current physical system of reality on this planet. If you have some knowledge of Buddhist philosophy, then you probably have somewhat of an understanding of what this final liberation entails, namely the end of rebirth in this physical reality, thus the word "final."
It is possible that we are infinite beings and that we are never finished growing and learning.
It is possible that there are infinite realities, universes, dimensions, ect.
It is possible that our mental and emotional activity "seeds" universes.
Of course, these are things that we will never truly know in an absolute sense while a part of this physical reality due to the limits of our physically-attuned consciousness, regardless of the higher-level insights that can be attained in higher states of consciousness, for it is still all filtered through our limited-capacity perceptions and conceptual frameworks. I believe it is wise to acknowledge this and avoid confusing beliefs with absolutes.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Sorensen
...an infinite being is never finished, it just keeps on having "experience" or growth or whatever word you prefer.
There are infinite realities, universes, dimensions and probable realities.
However expansive our view, it just keeps expanding, there is no end to it.
...
I like that. I'm going to steal it.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
Disappointment with human's as a species...
I think that is mainly due to most of them being asleep and don't realize their connection to everything around them. I don't really know how to go about that, most just do what they want damn nature, the planet and others.
If nature gets in the way of putting in a new school they just plow it under or dig it up. If there is an existing eco system there, they just get together and tell themselves it will be fine, the animals will just move some place else. Have to destroy wood land, it is ok, just plant some new trees and put down new grass it will be ok. It really is Human's first.. or. ME first and screw everyone else.
I have concerns about fulfilling my purpose for being here when most don't seem to care about anything outside themselves. Why should I care about them if they don't? I get that way a lot recently.
Re: What do you gain from enlightment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Terry
I have concerns about fulfilling my purpose for being here when most don't seem to care about anything outside themselves. Why should I care about them if they don't? I get that way a lot recently.
Precisely because it is YOUR purpose.
You are special, you are human, you are just like everyone else...if humans are self centered then you are allowed to be too!
Complete YOUR purpose, don't worry about other peoples. You will get your reward. Unless you are doing it for free...but you probably aren't so dont worry about it. ;)
I help people when I can, my reward is not that I expect them to do the same for me...it's that good feeling you get when you help someone in need and that's good enough for me, because I'm self centered and I like feeling good.