Companionship on the Path (was Beyond Enlightenment)

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Originally Posted by wstein

I want to encourage both (all) of you. I definitely took my own path, in my own time, and unfortunately on my own. I desperately wanted a companion or two along the way.
I (and others here) try to offer assistance to others on the same quest, hoping that their journey be less of a struggle than my own. Don't get me wrong, its still a struggle, your struggle, but friends can make it easier.
After struggling alone, I don't always remember to ask for assistance on those occasions where it might be available.

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I can definitely relate to this. This has been a huge dilemma on my own path, and I think I'm finally getting close to making peace with it. For years anything like help, assistance, guidance or commpanionship were foreign concepts ("having people around" is not the same thing as I'm sure anyone in this situation would agree)... and then one day I hit on some sort of magic combination, and it gradually started showing up. Now I'm trying to reverse-engineer exactly what happened so I can offer others something they can hopefully use to reduce the pain and struggle this issue can present, even retroactively.

Just yesterday I was a bit irritated by a popular "self help" type I have friended on Facebook, who posted the statement "If you're having trouble with a certain problem, perhaps your challenge is to stop thinking like a loner and learn to recruit help."

Granted I'm no longer "thinking like a loner" much these days but when I was actually IN that situation, you may as well have said "stop doing the only thing you have any frame of reference for, within OR without, and recruit something that isn't there and never has been." So, the part of me that is STILL there, resented hearing what came off as a smug proclamation from someone who has either never truly been that cut off from help and companionship, or has repressed the part of himself who is.

Then the same guy said "To go from independence to interdependence, set some goals that are too big to achieve solo." At one time that sounded like a great idea; call the universe's bluff, and make a leap of faith. So I tried it -- promptly splatted on the concrete where the safety net was supposed to be -- and spiraled even further into loner-hood while having to focus even more on myself to heal those injuries.

The other "easy answer" I explored was this concept of changing your beliefs to change your experience. So I held different beliefs, got super-optimistic, told myself that help and companionship was there, I just couldn't see it, etc etc... and not much changed. I didn't know it at the time, but the problem ran much deeper.

To cut to the point, things have gotten increasingly better on this front over the past two years as I've explored the theme of love, what it is, how to access it and what to do with it, figured out how my energy body and chakras are actually supposed to work, and removed everything not consistent with that.

But as I've discovered even more recently (as in, yesterday), even those distortions were symptoms of an even deeper, fundamental core issue -- the conditioned need for approval. Thing is, this got even more tricky... because I recognized early on that needing approval wasn't in my best interest, and thus thought I was "over" it.

The wrench was that a need for approval is actually a masked desire for love -- which is freely and unconditionally available since we're basically swimming in a field of it that underlies and permeates all. Ideally, you detach from the addiction to approval and "plug in" to the field of love, through your heart chakra. If at that time your heart chakra is as FUBAR as mine was, then good luck with that.

So while I thought I was detaching from seeking approval as a core motivation, and took love for granted... what actually happened was that I rejected all forms of approval, i.e. shoved the desire for it into my subconscious where it continued playing out in a variety of ways I was unaware of. It usually played out in a dysfunctional love-hate sort of way, where I'd create situations unconsciously hoping for approval to show up, and approval never got the memo; meanwhile I was unknowingly cut off from the ability to process love as well.

Ironically I'm pretty sure it was my ego that kept me going long enough to get to this point -- and that's part of why I'm defensive of the idea that the ego is not the problem; the wacky ideas it tends to absorb, are. At one point after the latest and most harsh approval-related let-down I'd experienced until that point, I said "this is it; something needs to change, drastically, now, or I'm DONE, because this whole human thing is NOT working." I let out a sort of internal primal scream that sent my energy blasting out in all directions. This was of course a completely selfish, egoic, manipulative, controlling, "brute force" way to frame and approach the situation. But... it worked. Gehenna got in contact for the first time within three days, and that was the beginning of a complete change in direction that ended up resolving this whole issue for both of us.

In any case my current perceptions on this are:

Approval is not "bad" anymore than the ego is, but we create conflict by trying to substitute one thing for another; in this case, approval for love.

Love and approval are both tools, but the natural order of things is for approval to be one of the physical manifestations of love given and received. To seek approval for its own sake is just another attempt to control the behavior of others. Rejecting approval, or love, only masks the need under layers of self-deception; it doesn't alleviate it.

*wanders off to ponder s'more*

Awesome post, Palehorse. :)

:D

One of the things I've seen recently is that all of the metaphors and koans and parables and so on are things that you don't really understand until you understand them. Which makes you wonder, "Well, what's the bloody point, then?" The point is that these things are sort of signposts. You don't understand them, until you "get there" and suddenly you go, "Oh! I see! This means that..." and you can proceed with that little bit of understanding.

It's a bit like the way my mother in law gives directions. "Go down to the end of the street and turn left and go down a ways until you come to that house with the blue fence, and then get in the right lane and when you see a group of pine trees, you need to turn. Got that? Okay, then go until you go past the place with the mini-golf and just beyond that is a fish and chips shop, which is where you want to turn. Then it's about, oh, three streets in, I suppose, there's a house with a rose garden on the corner where you need to turn."

Now, does that make ANY sense to anyone who hasn't been there? Almost certainly not. Although, if you were driving and you had her description available in a way that you could access instantly, it probably would get you where you need to go. At the VERY least, as you were driving you'd say, "Oh, there's the blue fence!" and "Is that the mini-golf place?" or whatever.

Spiritual awakening seems to be pretty much the same thing. Someone who has been there can tell you what roadsigns to look for and what they see, but until you're in the driver's seat and finding your way, it won't make much sense. BUT... when you DO get to the fish and chips shop, you'll know you're on the right track, eh? ;)

Good stuff, OW. :) That's totally how I am with taking directions too, heh... I'm terrible remembering a complex set of directions, but if I actually get there and see something that was talked about, I might have half a shot. That may be how all "guidance" works -- a lot of it is lost in translation, but eventually and cumulatively enough is retained to get us there.

One value that it seems the koans, metaphors etc. have even before we "get there" is that they seem to influence the subconscious mind and thus guide the journey. That's why they use so many images and metaphors; symbolism is the language of the subconscious, so it's given something to latch onto and work with, even if the individual has no idea that they're being guided, much less where to. Seekers and masters are a tricky bunch. :P Their suggestions also have the rest of the cacophony to compete with, so it seems like a lot of trial and error goes on, and can for quite a while. Eventually something "feels right" in comarison to all the things we've experience that didn't feel right; then we're locked on, and it becomes a process of calibration.

The problems arise when we substitute one image for another, or the subconscious is otherwise given a false image of "What Is" to latch onto, so we spin our wheels and dump our energy into those images without accomplishing anything. Mine in this instance were that love = approval, and that either is something you can seek, with the added layer of "rawr, I'm fiercely independent so I reject both." This seems to me what is meant when seekers talk about being "at rest" -- most or all seeking (even for things like "awakening" or "enlightenment" or "experiences" or even "salvation" -- are masked versions of a desire for love, to hear from someone or something that we're "good enough." This is roughly the equivalent of a fish going on a mad search for the ocean, but calling it a bunch of other things and having no idea what the characteristics of his objective actually are.

This was IMO why, although I understood the concept of oneness -- I didn't find it particularly restful. Love is where the rest is found -- and note the double meaning there. In contrast, you can see that everything is interconnected with, influences and depends on everything else, without feeling any particular sense of connection. Love "flows through the pipes" and creates that feeling of connection.

Interestingly I grokked the concept of self-acceptance a lot earlier, and I thought that was the way to access love. It wasn't. I got the hang of accepting every part of myself unconditionally as it was (so it would feel free to drop everything inconsistent with itself, and thus function as it's meant to)... but then I was in the position of thinking on some level "okay, *I* approve of me... so why doesn't the rest of the world seem to reflect or even correspond with that at all?" And that put me in a position where I probably looked pretty full of myself much of the time, because I started going "I accept myself! See how self accepting I am! Agree with me dammit! Is this thing on? Hellooooo?! *taptap*" :P

The final piece of that puzzle was of course to fix my broken heart chakra, so the piece that I am could find its natural place within the rest of the puzzle, and plug into the love being exchanged by the puzzle itself. Not all of the fear, axiety, pain, struggle and searching has ceased yet, but as my system acclimates to a whole new way of being, I can at least say that "this is where it's at, yo." :P

I probably seem like I'm just babbling on, repeating and rehashing things, but this is my way of boiling the process I'm going through down to its essence for a more full understanding. That seems to be happening, so yay.

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I probably seem like I'm just babbling on, repeating and rehashing things, but this is my way of boiling the process I'm going through down to its essence for a more full understanding. That seems to be happening, so yay.

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It's why they call it alchemy, yo. :D

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

It's why they call it alchemy, yo. :D

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Hah, interesting you should mention... when I was doing the work to determine what my personal archetypes are (and thus what tools I have to work with) "The Alchemist" was one of mine. So, that is indeed another aspect of how I roll. 8)

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Originally Posted by OlderWiser

One of the things I've seen recently is that all of the metaphors and koans and parables and so on are things that you don't really understand until you understand them. Which makes you wonder, "Well, what's the bloody point, then?" The point is that these things are sort of signposts. You don't understand them, until you "get there" and suddenly you go, "Oh! I see! This means that..." and you can proceed with that little bit of understanding.

It's a bit like the way my mother in law gives directions. "Go down to the end of the street and turn left and go down a ways until you come to that house with the blue fence, and then get in the right lane and when you see a group of pine trees, you need to turn. Got that? Okay, then go until you go past the place with the mini-golf and just beyond that is a fish and chips shop, which is where you want to turn. Then it's about, oh, three streets in, I suppose, there's a house with a rose garden on the corner where you need to turn."

Now, does that make ANY sense to anyone who hasn't been there? Almost certainly not. Although, if you were driving and you had her description available in a way that you could access instantly, it probably would get you where you need to go. At the VERY least, as you were driving you'd say, "Oh, there's the blue fence!" and "Is that the mini-golf place?" or whatever.

Spiritual awakening seems to be pretty much the same thing. Someone who has been there can tell you what roadsigns to look for and what they see, but until you're in the driver's seat and finding your way, it won't make much sense. BUT... when you DO get to the fish and chips shop, you'll know you're on the right track, eh? ;)

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Huh?
In your example the directions do make sense, its just that one might not be familiar with the landmarks until you start to follow the directions. At that point hopefully you can match you experience with the landmarks given. I don't feel this example is a parable.

Most parables I remember are really vague and poetic and totally not understandable until you after you arrive. The parable does not provide any understanding, it just allows confirmation. The understanding was gained by the process of proceeding on the journey. A parable can act as a reminder to something half forgotten.

The parable version of this is more like: There are obstacles on your path, if you go not the right way you will be lost. Travel until the color of the sky blinds you. Focus on nature, that will keep you safe. Your journey will be nearly complete nature gives way to man's influence. Pass the offerings of nature and stop to smell the roses.

OK, I being a bit harsh but not that much. Parables are stories. Some people understand stories and some do not. Sometimes that's because they are language impaired. The real issue is that stories rely on relating. When breaking new ground or going to new kinds of places, you have no experience with which to relate with until after you get there. If that's all you got, it might be better than nothing. As such I much prefer a clear set of directions to a story.

Disclaimer, I have an hang up based on past experience. People in my life that rely on stories tell them when either they don't know the answer or have the answer but don't actually understand it. They have fed me a story in an attempt to give me the answer without actually telling me what I want to know. I have found this frustrating. I would much rather they just say they don't know and not waste my time.

:D

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Originally Posted by wstein

I don't feel this example is a parable.

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It's not. It's an analogy, to demonstrate my thoughts on koans, parables, etc. I didn't intend it to be a parable. I've never in my life told an original parable, koan, or anything along those lines, as far as I'm aware.

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Originally Posted by wstein

Most parables I remember are really vague and poetic and totally not understandable until you after you arrive. The parable does not provide any understanding, it just allows confirmation. The understanding was gained by the process of proceeding on the journey. A parable can act as a reminder to something half forgotten.

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Yes. Quite. Which was kind of what I was trying to get across with my analogy, which I just didn't specify was an analogy. :)

Palearse said;

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The final piece of that puzzle was of course to fix my broken heart chakra, so the piece that I am could find its natural place within the rest of the puzzle, and plug into the love being exchanged by the puzzle itself. Not all of the fear, axiety, pain, struggle and searching has ceased yet, but as my system acclimates to a whole new way of being, I can at least say that "this is where it's at, yo."

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Parables, schmarables...sounds to me like you fell in love. :D

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Originally Posted by Tempestinateapot

Palearse said;Parables, schmarables...sounds to me like you fell in love. :D

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Well, I did that too, but the love part got a lot more functional after I got all me parts fixed. :P

Or, did your parts get fixed because you fell in love? Is it the chicken or the egg? If you fall out of love, will your parts get unfixed? Will you go back to not trusting and feeling alone? This is rhetorical, because you won't know until it happens. Love can make us feel on top of the world, feel safe, feel protected, feel a Oneness. Being a person who has fallen in and out of love many, many, many (did I say many?) times in my life, it is the acceptance (not the emotion) of Oneness that keeps my parts fixed. :D

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Originally Posted by Tempestinateapot

Or, did your parts get fixed because you fell in love? Is it the chicken or the egg? If you fall out of love, will your parts get unfixed? Will you go back to not trusting and feeling alone? This is rhetorical, because you won't know until it happens. Love can make us feel on top of the world, feel safe, feel protected, feel a Oneness. Being a person who has fallen in and out of love many, many, many (did I say many?) times in my life, it is the acceptance (not the emotion) of Oneness that keeps my parts fixed. :D

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I was going to edit my post after thinking more about it, but this actually underscores what I was thinking...

I realized I've never liked the phrase "falling in love." That makes it sounds like something that "just happens" on its own; one day you trip and find yourself "in love." Another day you might trip again and find yourself "out of love." It may happen that way for some people, but the whole passive approach has never really been my thing. That's probably a good thing, as I don't think I'd be able to maintain a relationship based solely on the feelings it evokes when things are good, for reasons I'll explain.

In this case, I saw a strong pre-existing connection, and an opportunity, and made the decision to give my love to both of those as well as the person on the other end.

My parts got fixed largely because the person on the other end happened to be proficient in scanning for and removing etheric implants and healing energy body damage (although the hunch is that this too was no accident), and as those were discovered I was getting more proficient in self-healing and enforcing healthy and selective boundaries so the problems recurred with decreasing frequency over time.

I would technically separate "not trusting" from "feeling alone" although they're often found together. I trusted Gehenna implicitly (or I wouldn't have had her do the work on my e-body), and trusted other people to varying degrees before all this happened, but the "feeling alone" was not resolved until the work was done on my heart chakra.

Whether I "feel alone" or not seems to be largely an energetic function. There are still the rare days when I go to bed feeling super loved and connected, and wake up feeling cut off completely, even though intellectually I realize all my relationships are still intact, and thus don't react to the feeling. I'll be feeling like total hell; subjectively it feels like being collectively abandoned by the world overnight, but responding mentally as "mild annoyance" rather than "utter catastrophe" because I know it's something easily resolved. Lo and behold, something pointy and etheric is usually found lodged in my heart chakra. A quick removal and some healing from either one of us, and the fuzzy feelings return.

Likewise, my ability to feel loved and connected is not dependent on any single relationship -- it's dependent on my ability to connect to Love (the energy) itself, which in turn depends on the shape my heart chakra is in at any given time (which in turn depends on how well my SP chakra is doing *its* job). Outward feedback from other people (such as healthy and fulfilling relationships) are a reflection of my ability to connect directly into the underlying field of love energy, and mutually exchange that energy with others in various forms of expression, not the other way around.

The mileage of others may vary, but this is the understanding I've come to as I've worked to reach a position on all this that I consider healthy and functional, and it seems to be working. :)

Addendum!

Was reflecting more on the subject of trust, and thought it'd be useful to explore for the sake of the discussion.

Much like love, my take on that has changed a lot since getting all my chakras back into working order.

There was a time long ago, in a galaxy far far away, when my motto was "trust no one." I simply saw no good reason to do so, and so I didn't, and that was that.

Eventually as of a few years ago, I did start seeing good reasons to do so, and so I did choose to start trusting others. At that point, my trust operated on a sort of sliding scale. Everybody started out by default in roughly the same position. If someone proved trustworthy when the opportunity came up, they moved upward. Betray my trust, and they moved downward. Betray my trust repeatedly in a way that would seriously affect my quality of life if allowed to continue, and they were bumped off the scale, and out of my life, entirely. As far as I knew at the time, this was the only way to "do the whole trust thing" -- with continuous trial-and-error. Unfortunately I was attracting an abundance of the third kind of person, and didn't yet have any idea why. But I continued with the whole trust experiment mostly out of sheer stubbornness and a desire to "get it right," meanwhile taking a lot of damage.

Since I've gotten my chakras back into working order, particularly the ones up top,and my subconscious cleared of counterproductive "protocols" both implanted and self-imposed (and deliberately put in better ones of my own choosing), I've found there hasn't been much need for that scale. Some people just "feel right," others "feel wrong," and there are glaring warning signs that are pretty clearly visible even if no overt offense has been committed. I would attribute this to my subconscious taking in info through my upper chakras that the conscious mind is not necessarily aware of, and giving me the "heads up" that I've learned it's best not to ignore or second-guess. This is my understanding of the process usually referred to as "intuition." Now it's not so much a matter of "giving someone trust" vs. not, as it's a case of knowing who is trustworthy. At this point I seem to be attracting more trustworthy people that I somehow "know" are not likely to commit deliberate or repeated breaches of trust, and issues that do come up are likely to be resolvable with communication and understanding, because we were both roughly on the same page about what constitutes "healthy boundaries" and "acceptable conduct" to begin with.

But as I've already said, I've experienced love, and trust, as technically separate but usually interrelated issues.

Hmmmm, I'm a basically trusting person, and actually don't have a lot of boundary issues. Yes, I've had many instances of people betraying me, as well as times I could have been accused of betraying others. I deal with it and move on. I don't get overly caught up in making judgements about who to trust and who not to. I suppose I assume that everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, and that things I have done, and what others have done to me, could be considered untrustworthy and may have emotionally harmed another person are all part of what we are experiencing as humans.

I guess you could say that I trust everyone and I trust no one, and so it is a moot point. They cancel each other out. I've come to a point of not judging them or myself, knowing that at this point I do not know the full measure of the damage I may have inflicted on someone else without being aware of it. So, that's what it's come down to for me...everyone is ok in my book. That doesn't mean that I hang out with the local serial killer, I'm not stupid. :D But, I don't judge him/her anymore. That level of acceptance has freed me beyond anything I ever knew possible, and there is almost nothing left that I fear in this life.

"Companionship on the Path"? Yes, that does help, but as Palearse so eloquently put it, you've got to "fix your own parts" to have a healthy relationship. :D

TIATP... what you've said touches on forgiveness, which is another important, interrelated yet distinct concept well worth exploring in depth.

It's also yet another instance where I've found that whatever lodges in the subconscious is what's creating our experience. I've forgiven and been forgiven by a lot of people -- or so I thought -- but what I've found was that there was still what I call an internal "archive" that was holding a record of all these offenses committed by myself and others, continuing to make new records, and using them to color what I'm experiencing now... even though I decided a long time ago that my approach was to let things go, get over it, not hold grudges and so forth. So I'd make every effort to get over things, and feel like I had, but some part of me wouldn't, and unfortunately that part had a lot of influence over present and future experiences.

So, naturally, I burned down the archive and instructed Subby not to rebuild it. :P Interestingly, that night, I had a dream where I suddenly and very pleasantly started rising off the ground, and in the dream I went semi-lucid and felt that the rising was related to the forgiveness work of the night before. Oddly I was half conscious of the physical and for a minute felt like I was rising out of the chair I'd fallen asleep in. If this was an AP exit, then it would be the first full one I've ever had. Sweeeeet... :D

In any case I don't want to make it sound like I spend a whole lot of time judging, putting people into categories, etc... the difference is that after doing the clear-out, putting in the boundaries and new parameters by which my intuition measures things against, I don't have to. If I encountered a serial killer for instance, I would probably just perceive them as "someone I should probably avoid permitting into my space in any capacity" and going on my merry way with no further thought in the matter.

In summary: cool stuff, man. :D

So, I don't want you to think that I'm in any way judging your journey. You seem to be reflecting and musing, and it's encouraged me to do the same. I'm merely stating my interpretation of my own journey, not so much commenting on yours.

Having said that, I would like to comment on "forgiveness". I know it's a new catchphrase that has been popularized in New Age literature, although it's origin is Biblical/New Testament. Being the expert you are, maybe you know of some further back origin. :D Being an ex Bible thumper these days, the word rather gives me the willies. Brings on too many visions of a loving/vengeful/multiple personality god. I prefer the word "acceptance", and I'll tell you why. I'm sure you knew I would. :P

"Forgiveness" implies that something "wrong" has been done. Since I cast off the notion that true right and wrong exist (I think they are just perceptions), I also threw out the notion that there is anything to be forgiven from. "Acceptance" implies that there is no right or wrong...no act so horrible that it can separate us from Source. Accepting doesn't mean forgiving, they are completely separate terms and definitions, at least in my mind. No, don't go getting a dictionary, 'cause it won't sway me one bit. :wink: Acceptance can be better defined in the old pop culture saying, "I'm ok, you're ok". Forgiveness says, "You're not ok, but I will try and believe that you are", or "You're not ok, but I'll move past that", or "You're not ok, but I'll bury my anger deep inside where it won't see the light of day". Acceptance says, "I'm ok, you're ok, period". Utlimately, isn't that what Source thinks? Or, is Source up there planning all kinds of punishments for our wrongdoings? No, don't talk to me about karma. (You were going to, weren't you?) I think karma has a limited existence, and may only exist for humans who actually believe in it. Don't get me started on that topic... :lol:

CTF- I agree there about "forgiveness". I have stuff I cannot forgive, because I will not condone the actions involved. "Acceptance" resonates more. It prolly is just semantics tho.

To comment on earlier points raised, as far as the whole love thing.. I dont think it is ever down to meeting any one person. In my experience people either have a giant chip on their shoulder about the other sex..or not. Meeting "a good one" just shoulders all the responsibility on that person and they end up as the ambassador for their sex! And hey..if the people involved split up, the person who had the giant chip reforms it twice as huge.

It's true, we need to heal before we can truly love; love in itself doesn't heal a damn thing if you are incapable of giving and receiving it. (/clumsy)

The laptop deleted my post! Damn! Starting from scratch..

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Whether I "feel alone" or not seems to be largely an energetic function. There are still the rare days when I go to bed feeling super loved and connected, and wake up feeling cut off completely, even though intellectually I realize all my relationships are still intact, and thus don't react to the feeling. I'll be feeling like total hell; subjectively it feels like being collectively abandoned by the world overnight, but responding mentally as "mild annoyance" rather than "utter catastrophe" because I know it's something easily resolved. Lo and behold, something pointy and etheric is usually found lodged in my heart chakra. A quick removal and some healing from either one of us, and the fuzzy feelings return.

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I use your symbolic method and actually beat down or throw away thboughts that get in my way like that. Its soo wierd, becuase it works. Sometimes the feeling stays other times it doesn't. I want to follow the feeling itself to the source and get some better understanding their.

Love is great, I was lucky enough to be spoiled for nearly a year from an awesome lady that was very good at astral projection. I had to fix myself after she left. I think I was the clingy one. Then some of the ladies I have run across over the years have really helped me keep my balance. Although the love thing only happened once, if that is what it was. I have trouble being sure. I had a heart chakra healing thing done to me with love energy over the period of an hour and a half. I felt like superman... Seriously, that love stuff is amazing. It was like I could do anyyything!

:D

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Originally Posted by Tempest

Having said that, I would like to comment on "forgiveness". I know it's a new catchphrase that has been popularized in New Age literature, although it's origin is Biblical/New Testament. Being the expert you are, maybe you know of some further back origin. :D Being an ex Bible thumper these days, the word rather gives me the willies. Brings on too many visions of a loving/vengeful/multiple personality god. I prefer the word "acceptance", and I'll tell you why. I'm sure you knew I would. :P

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Lol, I recently took one of those "how big of a bible geek are you" quizzes and realized I'm getting rusty. :P

Apparently forgiveness is a big deal in Hinduism, which predates the Abrahamic religions, so it couldn't have originated with them. *trivia* I would think the basic concept goes beyond religion though; it wouldn't surprise me to find that early humans had some sort of concept of "making things right." *shrug*

Anyway...

I have a harder time with the idea of "acceptance," interestingly... but as Gehenna said, it may just be semantics. I can accept people as they are (and set up or bring down the appropriate boundaries) because people will be people and there's really nothing I can do about that. I can also accept any "God-spark" that might exist in anybody, though I think it's very possible for that to be squished down so far by one's choices that it may as well not be there. But when it comes to the actions of people, my subconscious seems to hear "acceptance" and not only feel like I'm marginalizing myself, but saying "he's accepting things that cause suffering... bring on more suffering!"

I understand and agree that "feeling wronged" is a matter of perception. But that perception is one that seems to stick, in such a way that continues to sit around in the subconscious, attracting other crap to itself, until something is done with it. If someone kicked down your proverbial sand-castle when you were five, you might not care now, but back then it was a huge issue... and for some part of you, if the issue hasn't been deliberately released, it may still be. Or, this is the way it's seemed to work with me anyway. Hopefully my "burning down the archive" exercise will have changed that.

When I say that I "forgive" someone or something, I'm simply taking whatever debris I still carry from the original event, recognizing and releasing it. There may be no universal "right or wrong," but I've found that if I validate the aspect of myself, "I understand that you feel wronged, and why, but now we need to release this so it won't continue to affect the rest of my experience"... it's much more effective than telling the aspect "you're wrong to feel wronged because there is no right or wrong, so just accept it." From what I can tell, the effect of any event is about 10% from the event itself, and 90% from the "stuff" that we continue to hang on to afterward. The 10% stays in the past, but the 90% continues to affect the present until purged. I also have some evidence from the theory that hanging onto the 90% can also keep a relationship within the framework of the event -- i.e. you've got this blob of crap in you that says this person is "bad" and so they respond to that, and continue to be "that person."

So, the process I call "forgiveness" actually doesn't really have anything to do with the other person per se. Since we're all interconnected, it wouldn't surprise me if any other involved parties got some sort of positive release from it, but for me it's more a matter of cleaning out my own attic. Reconciliation is another separate concept, and not always appropriate to accompany forgiveness IMO. There are people I've forgiven, i.e. released from my system, that I still recognize it would not be healthy to have in my life in any capacity.

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No, don't talk to me about karma. (You were going to, weren't you?) I think karma has a limited existence, and may only exist for humans who actually believe in it. Don't get me started on that topic... :lol:

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Heh... you won't get any karma-shpiel from me; I'm not a fan of the concept either. To me it's just another inherently unverifiable reward / punishment scheme cooked up to enforce a given moral framework for which there is no basis in reality.

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TTP said, "That doesn't mean that I hang out with the local serial killer, I'm not stupid."

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Timo said:

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again, the most profane off topic comparison.

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Timo, would you please just get over it and stop making snide comments about what I say? This is how I talk, and I'm not breaking any rules. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it, but stop harassing me. Do you actually even have a sense of humor? :twisted: Well, I do, and it's slightly twisted. Deal with it, or read elsewhere. I'm starting to feel like you are stalking me. I would bet money that you have done a search on me to read my posts so you can stand in judgement.

So, let's see, you've accused me of "tromping all over the boundarys of others", you keep bringing up the topic I mentioned ONCE about pedophiles, bringing it into other threads, COMPLETELY misunderstanding my intention,

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i merely interpret the 'between the lines' scenery, with no disrespect, to point to the obvious for learning's sake.

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: here you've decided to become my teacher :roll: and here,

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the shallowest of folk are never the same one day to next, for at the nap of their skin they are flaked off and destined to tred in the dandor of their own stupor. Forest Gumpism - "stupid is as stupid does"

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you've called me shallow and stupid.

You don't know me, have no idea what my motives are, what my personality is like, or what I have done in my life, and yet, you've chosen to become my personal judge and jury. I know you've been talked to by CFT about this, and I told her not to worry about it. Now, I'm just plain tired of it, and would ask that you keep your personal comments about me inside your own head. Feel free to comment with an opposing viewpoint, but leave the personal attacks locked away in that judgemental head of yours.

After talking to PH, and realising we are on the same page and it is mostly semanticsm Id say forgiveness/acceptance, to ME, is the refusal to stop paying an emotional price for someone else's past actions and to take the appropriate action which is best for yourself; for example to continue the relationship with a clean slate, no snide remarks etc, or to cut ties or whatever else.

Most of the time, what we silently rage about is forgotten by the other party, or else they don't understand the problem, or plain just don't care.. so why torture yourself. Forgiveness/acceptance doesn't mean forgetting, and can be positive; a long wed-couple who joke about infidelity when they were younger is a great example.

Palearse said:

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if the issue hasn't been deliberately released, it may still be.

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This is partially what I mean by "acceptance". In hypnotherapy, we often use a technique of releasement. Sometimes it's an "entitiy" (when using spiritual hypnotherapy), sometimes it's an issue someone is hanging on to that needs releasement. The technique is similar to what I assume Gehenna uses, although I usually can't metaphysically "see" the entity or problem. During hypnosis and with guidance, many clients have been able to visualize their problem and remove it, much like Robert teaches astral hands. Healing very often occurs at this point. Actual forgiveness is not involved in the process, it's a matter of detection, releasement, and acceptance.

So, yes, the difference between forgiveness and acceptance may just be semantics, with my personal bias coming into play here. Although, I do strongly think that accepting the notion that there is no ultimate right or wrong in the universe can go a long way towards personal healing. I've seen it in my life, and I've seen it in others. My son carried around huge amounts of anger towards his dad who abandoned him as a young child. As an adult, he would not return his dad's calls, and expressed a bitterness that tore at my heart. There was no good reason for the abandonment, and, yet, I can't really fault him for it. People need to live their lives as they see fit, as they are on their own personal journey, and we can't know what that journey and it's purpose is ultimately about. After my son had a spiritual upheaval in his life, he came to the understanding that there is no ultimate right or wrong, and was able to accept his dad back into his life. The bitterness instantly left. It was kind of amazing to see.

In the same vein, those we choose as companions along our journey are usually there for a purpose. And, I mean the supposed "good" and "bad" companions. If you accept the idea of past lives, in doing past life regression hypnotherapy, I've learned that we often come back as antagonists to the protagonists in our life story. We actually choose people/souls and make agreements with them to create disharmony and pain in our lives for purposes of learning and experiencing. After death, everyone usually becomes "friends" once again, even though they may have made our life a living hell. While not having omniscience, souls usually are made aware of the reasons for the supposed good and bad occurances in their lives. Time and again, I've seen clients who were taken to the time between lives come to the understanding of why they chose certain people to create havoc in their lives, creating a healing and an acceptance of the roles we all play in each other's lives. This personal acceptance and healing has allowed them to move past the idea of right and wrong, and see, for the first time, how we work together to create experiences of all kinds...not just "good" ones.

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Originally Posted by Tempest

In the same vein, those we choose as companions along our journey are usually there for a purpose. And, I mean the supposed "good" and "bad" companions. If you accept the idea of past lives, in doing past life regression hypnotherapy, I've learned that we often come back as antagonists to the protagonists in our life story. We actually choose people/souls and make agreements with them to create disharmony and pain in our lives for purposes of learning and experiencing. After death, everyone usually becomes "friends" once again, even though they may have made our life a living hell. While not having omniscience, souls usually are made aware of the reasons for the supposed good and bad occurances in their lives. Time and again, I've seen clients who were taken to the time between lives come to the understanding of why they chose certain people to create havoc in their lives, creating a healing and an acceptance of the roles we all play in each other's live. This personal acceptance and healing has allowed them to move past the idea of right and wrong, and see, for the first time, how we work together to create experiences of all kinds...not just "good" ones.

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I'm not discounting that this probably is sometimes the case, though based on my experience, in life as well as getting feedback on various situations from my HS, I would have to say "sometimes but not always."

On one hand, I could present the example of my family. We've all been an asset to each other in some ways I think, and in others we've caused a lot of suffering for each other. This is probably the case in most families to varying degrees, but I could see where there were agreements involved here, partly because I've had an experience that seems to support the idea that I picked my parents. Although, I know others who would dispute that they picked theirs -- I've seen cases where evidence seem to indicate that the families they ended up with was more of a case of derailing on the way in, than a mutual agreement.

Likewise, there are situations in my life that my HS has indicated were an attempted derailing, rather than anything I consented to, whether at his level, mine or anywhere in between. At that point it seems that the HS has the choice of whether to accept the attempted derailing as part of the incarnation's experience because he (gender pronoun used for convenience, although mine seems to manifest more as a "he") thinks there's a high enough probability of something he hopes to gain from it, or he can intervene directly. I've seen examples of both in my own life. There are times when I personally got things back on track and learned something in the process; there were other times when I got direct intervention unasked, and there were still other times when I asked for intervention, and got it, because it was mutually agreed that the antagonist wasn't going to stop on their own, neither I nor my HS wanted to continue in the direction the antagonist had in mind, and I didn't yet have the resources "on the ground" to put a stop to it on my own.

Conversely, I've gotten indication that the HS of some people playing the antagonist role do not approve or consent to what they're doing, and in some of those cases it's whatever they're possessed by, not the HS or any sort of agreement, that is the driving force behind the course of events. In extreme cases it may be that whatever remained of the HS's influence and its connection has been squelched out, there's literally nothing left of the original person, and the identity is that of the possessing entity. In one such case in my own life, according to my HS, he has no prior or current association with the HS of the person who was playing that role in my life, but then, that person doesn't have much of a remaining association with the former HS either.

Not a fun subject necessarily, but just another alternate view to consider.