Re: Surface Mind Problems
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Originally Posted by silverton64
I've been studying this since 2003 when I was a sophmore in highschool. I studied for hours after school at the library researching information and reading books until it closed every night for nearly a year until we got internet. I know a lot about this stuff and have had many OBE's...but I have never had an actual conscious exit OBE...I always either wake up with vibrations able to leave...or come from a Lucid dream back to my body....these are exciting, but I've never actually been able to leave my body from a fully awake state.
Hi Daniel- I'll see if I can help you.
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I'll do the relaxation exercises, and start raising energy to my chakra's one at a time after entering a trance.
First of all, are you building up to primary chakras? (legs and arms and then primaries)? I ask because he always recommends you do this so that your projected double is fully developed.
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..I then focus on quieting my surface mind which is SO HARD for me to do...after years and years of sleeping with music playing...always having music on while on the computer...everything has always been able to occupy my surface mind...I tried using music when I try to have an OBE but it hasn't worked and I usually don't have music because Robert says it doesn't provide you with a full effect and I want to train my mind to be the best it can be without using artificial props or tools...
Ok, here's where I have to disagree- the optimal state of mind for a projection is from an 'empty mind', but you work up to it. So I would recommend you do 'empty mind' meditation at some other predetermined time, and when you're trying for an OBE, first use guided visualizations (trance techniques, energy breathing, energy raising, energy body loosening, and then allocate yourself some time to have verbal thoughts, and then when you believe your trance is deep enough you go for the empty mind.
Now, also realize that using color visualizations is ok, and other type of visualizations are acceptable as long as they don't lead to chatter. If chatter is inevitable, then observe it and let it go, instead of trying to suppress it. This puts the focus on the wrong thing and frustrates you, something which is obviously happening here.
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so I'm sitting/lying there...and I've been getting better at keeping it quiet, but usually it will be just chattering away...I'll keep my focus (yet staying relaxed and mentally relaxed so not to disturb my physical relaxation) on my breathing and sometimes it'll just start talking, saying things that are totally stupid and aggravating...not the normal things that usually it does...it'll do things that will be like trying to PREVENT me from getting an OBE(it'll say mean things to me like stop or random meaningless words, gives me a feeling like it hates me or something)...I know it takes practice but I've tried all the techniques in both roberts old astral dynamics and new astral dynamics (which is SO MUCH BETTER, he is way more indepth in the new book and I learned so much more from it). But I just seem to be at a standstill here..
Have you considered that this chatter is coming from your subconscious and that you are actually having auditory hypnagogics? When I start to notice my 'monkey chatter', instead of fighting it, I become curious at the fact that most of the time we are having a conversation (the collective unconscious?) with 'somebody', and that this is something interesting, and when you try to 'tune it in', you actually fall deeper into the trance, and it actually helps to get you there quicker.
If your subconscious aspects are being mean to you (after all, we all have a shadow self) you can divert your attention to the earhiss in your head, and concentrate on that- it'll bring you closer to the trance and at the same time will move your focus away from your body sensations.
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.last week I did get the heart chakra sensation where my heart was beating super fast I tried to stay relaxed and my hands and body got all sweaty after I calmed down so I wasn't able to leave....I want to have this so bad I just don't know what to do...what am I doing wrong? I am practicing and taking it slow..not rushing things, it's been 6 years...the rope techniques haven't worked yet for me..
A question I have is- are you doing energy body loosening in between trance, focusing and exit techniques? If you are having trouble exiting with rope there are a few possible reasons, but it's possible that you need to wait for something to happen before starting on the rope- many people start too soon tugging on the rope, so I always recommend energy body loosening before going for the exit, and waiting for some sort of shift before starting on it.
Also, I recommend rope when you are having vibrations, heart sensations, or hypnagogic hallucinations.
Where I don't recommend rope is when you are feeling floaty, or 'swaying' from point to point. Then I recommend a different type of exit.
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.what am I supposed to focus on...I focus on my breathing, but am I supposed to look through my closed eyes at my eyelids? Does it matter if I move my eyes any? I get REM sensations and ignore those, I get the cobweb feelings...I don't know what to do from here and I want to do this so badly....it's all I think about and I love it so much..
YOu should ignore all body sensations and pay attention to your mind state. You can focus on any point in front of you, and if it's not keeping your attention, try to control the colors that you see- the color of your eyelids are the background. Try to summon colors, and play with that. Don't make it a source of frustration- just keep your attention focused on the color(s) and the sounds, and try to do both at the same time. If that doesn't work, try some sort of visualization.
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.I get lucid dreams often, I'm so in touch with my subconscious mind and I remember my dreams really well....I have a journal where I write down my experiences and thought and theories about this..I emailed Robert years ago and he told me to get the book Franz Bardon - Initiation into Hermetics and I finally bought it a couple weeks ago...I got it and am still on the theory part but it has a lot of techniques to try....
You can incorporate 'element breathing' into your trance induction techniques, and other things that are very helpful to train the mind.
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I just don't know what to do from here, I feel like a lost puppy dog with no where to go...I want this so badly and I know a big key to getting an OBE is desire and will..and I have that...also another thing...about meditation...what exactly do you do while you're in the trance state when JUST meditating? He says he'll meditate for hours, but what exactly does he do when he meditates? Does he just sit there blankly pushing thought pressures away until they don't bother him anymore, then what happens after that?
Well, I can't speak for Robert, but when I meditate, I just simply observe what goes on, no pushing, no fighting, no nothing. Just observe, like watching tv. Eventually, stuff starts to happen.
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I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but these have been building up inside of me for years as I've become more experience with this stuff and these are obstacles I just cannot seem to pass through. I've read his first PDF on Treatise on OBE...countless times, bought the astral dynamics book twice, read that front and back, bought his new astral dynamics book he just wrote in September a few weeks ago and have been reading that...I'm doing everything I can, but I still haven't had an actual conscious OBE...and I don't really know where to go from here...I just sit/lay down and (even though I sound frustrated now) stay relaxed and I can enter the trance state...I just can't stop my mind from talking to me....then the next step after that is an exit attempt, when do I know when I can do it? How long after my mind stops talking to me do I do an exit attempt? I've seen the hypnagogic imagery before...and when I had my first OBE it was only after I had gone to sleep and woke up WITH vibrations (sleep paralysis)....it was an amazing experience and I've had many many OBE's from LD's but I can't get it from a sit/lay down session...
If you can help me I would be so grateful...people with more experience know the problems people are having...and I have no experience of being awake so I can't really diagnose it myself and fix it....I have no clue where to go from here but to keep doing what Robert says...thank you so much for taking the time to reading this and I look forward to any replies that might help me on this lifelong journey....
Well, I won't tell you to get MAP, after all the money you've already spent, but I'd say so if you were starting.
Luckily, we have the schedule for a MAP-based routine stickied here somewhere, I recommend you take some pointers from some of the stickied threads here as to
how to go about some of the things you've been doing differently.
Re: Surface Mind Problems
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Originally Posted by CFTraveler
First of all, are you building up to primary chakras? (legs and arms and then primaries)? I ask because he always recommends you do this so that your projected double is fully developed.
Yes I am, I start with the bottom of my feet and imagine a strong energy flowing from beneath the ground below me and slowly moving up my legs like a plasma up to the first primary chakra, repeat a few times, and raise it to the next one. Then I start from the bottom of my feet and move up to the first one, then the second one, and so on (repeating each one a few times) until all have been done. Granted I really don't do it too often, I know that is lack in my part of commitment.
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Ok, here's where I have to disagree- the optimal state of mind for a projection is from an 'empty mind', but you work up to it. So I would recommend you do 'empty mind' meditation at some other predetermined time, and when you're trying for an OBE, first use guided visualizations (trance techniques, energy breathing, energy raising, energy body loosening, and then allocate yourself some time to have verbal thoughts, and then when you believe your trance is deep enough you go for the empty mind.
Now, also realize that using color visualizations is ok, and other type of visualizations are acceptable as long as they don't lead to chatter. If chatter is inevitable, then observe it and let it go, instead of trying to suppress it. This puts the focus on the wrong thing and frustrates you, something which is obviously happening here.
Thank you!! That's seriously so helpful, you really cleared a lot of my thoughts up here....I was always thinking my mind had to be completely empty the entire time which I'm sure is still possibly to project but really hard for people to do....
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Have you considered that this chatter is coming from your subconscious and that you are actually having auditory hypnagogics? When I start to notice my 'monkey chatter', instead of fighting it, I become curious at the fact that most of the time we are having a conversation (the collective unconscious?) with 'somebody', and that this is something interesting, and when you try to 'tune it in', you actually fall deeper into the trance, and it actually helps to get you there quicker.
If your subconscious aspects are being mean to you (after all, we all have a shadow self) you can divert your attention to the earhiss in your head, and concentrate on that- it'll bring you closer to the trance and at the same time will move your focus away from your body sensations.
I never thought about it like that...I really didn't think about auditory hypnagogics...I used to get visual one's all the time, but now that you mention it it does seem likely that you are right about what I was experiencing...I'll have to dive deeper into this and see what actually may be going on and if it can bring me closer to a trance.
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A question I have is- are you doing energy body loosening in between trance, focusing and exit techniques? If you are having trouble exiting with rope there are a few possible reasons, but it's possible that you need to wait for something to happen before starting on the rope- many people start too soon tugging on the rope, so I always recommend energy body loosening before going for the exit, and waiting for some sort of shift before starting on it.
Also, I recommend rope when you are having vibrations, heart sensations, or hypnagogic hallucinations.
Where I don't recommend rope is when you are feeling floaty, or 'swaying' from point to point. Then I recommend a different type of exit.
I actually haven't really tried much with the energy body loosening; I usually didn't think much of it for some reason...and I didn't really read a lot into it in the book...but I've read several other posts you have made where you state that energy body loosening helps you, so it's clear that it's a strong way for you to have an OBE, I'm definitely going to start doing this more often, and I tried ROPE right when I got the heart sensations while at the same time I was trying to keep calm and relaxed, but what I don't get here is HOW are you supposed to keep your mind clear of everything while all these sensations are going on around you, and if you think of something will it stop or slow the exit attempt? I think the loosening part may very well be where my mishap is here...
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Well, I can't speak for Robert, but when I meditate, I just simply observe what goes on, no pushing, no fighting, no nothing. Just observe, like watching tv. Eventually, stuff starts to happen.
I see...may I ask what kinds of stuff? I'm just curious as to what you personally experience if you don't mind me asking?
I really want to thank you again for taking the time to reply to my post, and so promptly too...I really appreciate it and I'm going to put to good work the effort you put into my reply, it really means a lot.
Now that we've got the gist of my concerns covered for the most part, until I practice what you've said and possibly come up with some more, I was wondering if you could please maybe indulge me on a few questions about the Astral world, as it seems you have been astral traveling for some time now, as I have become very curious about the mind itself while out there:
Okay, so has there been any research on memory retrieval while you are out there? What I mean here is, Robert said in his new AD Book that the mind stores its memories outside of the body rather than the commonly believed inside the brain. He said you can take someone's brain and cut half of it out and the person still loses no memories, no matter which side is taken out. This sparked a great mystery to me and some questions maybe you could help me answer, or explore if you don't know yet? So my question is, is it possible to relive your memories inside an astral plane? Like create a dream world where it is ACTUALLY your memory that is being played back and you are either the spectator or yourself (as you are in a regular dream and your subconscious controls your movements and actions)? I've read about people being hypnotized and they seem to relive memories as the hypnotist walks them through it with their voice...I was just wondering if this would be possible and is something I would like to explore in the future when I can consciously OBE. Any thoughts?
Oh and one other thing, is there a place where Robert or You, or any advanced traveler writes about his experiences? Robert has a few in his book and I read the ones he placed on his site years ago, but I was wondering since you explore so much, what are some of the most exciting things that you've seen/had happen to you? Besides going to the higher Astral Planes, what about just in the regular Astral? Just a little curious, is all. Sorry if I may be imposing a few too many questions all at once...
I look forward to your response, thank you again.
Re: Surface Mind Problems
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Originally Posted by silverton64
I see...may I ask what kinds of stuff? I'm just curious as to what you personally experience if you don't mind me asking?
Well, it depends on how long. The darkness or pinkness in front of my closed eyes, and when I've been doing breathing, etc, and get deeper, I see color blobs and try to make them look like something (like the cloud thing), and sometimes I try to change the colors, if I combine this with chakra breathing.
Then I start listening to my earhiss while I observe, and that usually gets me deeper, and sometimes the hiss turns into voices, which I listen to (without interest, since it's just random crap), and eventually I start having very short rv episodes, which slow down to vision screens. At that point, if I can slow them down, I can merge into them or just observe. At this point I can get deeper (OBE or phase) or just stay there, in my space, and observe what I see. Depending on how much time I have.
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I really want to thank you again for taking the time to reply to my post, and so promptly too...I really appreciate it and I'm going to put to good work the effort you put into my reply, it really means a lot.
You're welcome.
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Now that we've got the gist of my concerns covered for the most part, until I practice what you've said and possibly come up with some more, I was wondering if you could please maybe indulge me on a few questions about the Astral world, as it seems you have been astral traveling for some time now, as I have become very curious about the mind itself while out there:
Okay, so has there been any research on memory retrieval while you are out there?
There has been some, and I may have some sources you can look into, however that means looking through my 'book' books (not links to sites) that will guide you to what the studies have seemed to show. Notice I said 'seemed'. :wink: Because we really don't know that much.
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What I mean here is, Robert said in his new AD Book that the mind stores its memories outside of the body rather than the commonly believed inside the brain. He said you can take someone's brain and cut half of it out and the person still loses no memories, no matter which side is taken out.
I've read different studies that show different things, so I think it depends in who did the study and what they were trying to prove.
What I can tell you is that what most of the studies seem to indicate is that the brain (whether it's in or not) seems to handle memories holographically, and they can be accessed from different parts of them. For example, if I use neuron A to store a memory, and neuron A is disabled, I can retrieve the memory from neuron C. This doesn't really prove anything one way or another, but it shows that there's probably no one single 'memory' location in the brain, that however it's stored, many parts act at the same time when it happens.
Does that make sense?
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This sparked a great mystery to me and some questions maybe you could help me answer, or explore if you don't know yet? So my question is, is it possible to relive your memories inside an astral plane?
Yes, it's what I consider happens every time we experience the astral. Memories of what we've seen, and memories of what our astral 'parts' have experienced. So in an AP you can go back into your memories, but you can also go back to 'alternate' memories, or what I like to call the land of 'what if'. Which makes AP so much more interesting, IMO.
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Like create a dream world where it is ACTUALLY your memory that is being played back and you are either the spectator or yourself (as you are in a regular dream and your subconscious controls your movements and actions)? I've read about people being hypnotized and they seem to relive memories as the hypnotist walks them through it with their voice...I was just wondering if this would be possible and is something I would like to explore in the future when I can consciously OBE. Any thoughts?
I've never experienced my memories from a third person perspective, but some report having done it. So IDK. I have gone back and relived it as it happened, from my own perspective. And also the 'alternate past', and 'alternate present'.
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Oh and one other thing, is there a place where Robert or You, or any advanced traveler writes about his experiences? Robert has a few in his book and I read the ones he placed on his site years ago, but I was wondering since you explore so much, what are some of the most exciting things that you've seen/had happen to you? Besides going to the higher Astral Planes, what about just in the regular Astral? Just a little curious, is all. Sorry if I may be imposing a few too many questions all at once...
I look forward to your response, thank you again.
Yes, I have my journal in the OBE forum, stickied. Many in the forum have them. Good luck reading mine, it's pretty long. :)
Re: Surface Mind Problems
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Originally Posted by CFTraveler
Well, it depends on how long. The darkness or pinkness in front of my closed eyes, and when I've been doing breathing, etc, and get deeper, I see color blobs and try to make them look like something (like the cloud thing), and sometimes I try to change the colors, if I combine this with chakra breathing.
Then I start listening to my earhiss while I observe, and that usually gets me deeper, and sometimes the hiss turns into voices, which I listen to (without interest, since it's just random crap), and eventually I start having very short rv episodes, which slow down to vision screens. At that point, if I can slow them down, I can merge into them or just observe. At this point I can get deeper (OBE or phase) or just stay there, in my space, and observe what I see. Depending on how much time I have.
I was meditating today, and I usually stop going down (with my brainwaves) once I reach the light trance where the body feels warm and comfortable, but tonight I tried going further...it was really cool, I was trying to bring on the hypnagogic state because I usually forget about trying to see them and I was able to bring some visuals but they weren't very strong...I laid there and thought it was because I wasn't in a deep enough trance, so I brought on the feeling that deepens my trance and at some point I saw this big room with a person in it...although it wasn't clear at all, it was mostly black and everything was a very light blue, those were the only two colors I saw. It was really neat and gave me a good feeling, like I was getting somewhere. My mom came in the house a little bit after that and it ended..
One thing I felt was this type of pressure on my left leg from my kneecap down, I didn't do any relaxation exercises because I didn't have plans to OBE so I thought this part of my leg may be generating its etheric double (maybe that part was relaxed enough)? It didn't feel like the vibrations I feel normally before I exit but it felt like it could become them. I tried to deepen it and relax it but I never got any floating sensations from that part so I just focused on my eyelids and breathing. I also felt a lot of pressure, when I went from my feet and through each chakra using tactile hands from the base to the crown, coming from my forehead and top of my head...would this be the brow center and crown activating?
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I've read different studies that show different things, so I think it depends in who did the study and what they were trying to prove.
What I can tell you is that what most of the studies seem to indicate is that the brain (whether it's in or not) seems to handle memories holographically, and they can be accessed from different parts of them. For example, if I use neuron A to store a memory, and neuron A is disabled, I can retrieve the memory from neuron C. This doesn't really prove anything one way or another, but it shows that there's probably no one single 'memory' location in the brain, that however it's stored, many parts act at the same time when it happens.
Does that make sense?
Yes that makes perfect sense, and actually excites me to think we may store memories holographically because that supports my theories of reliving your memories....I just wonder if my childhood would be stored or not....I don't know if the brain is well developed enough or not...I guess, stepping out on a ledge or two though, maybe if my mom would let me astral travel into her memories of me I could see myself growing up...I highly doubt the possibility of that...as I read about your husbands thinking you were giving him a psychic attack when trying to help him have an OBE..I guess one possibility is for two people to have an OBE at the same time and each other could connect and create an astral world just for them two and they could share their memories together? Sounds kind of exciting and far fetched, but I don't doubt the possibility of anything. All this writing and thinking gets me so excited about this stuff, I wish I could do this at will....like Robert...at least I've never given up though.
Re: Surface Mind Problems
Keep working at it, your account is very encouraging- you were almost phased into an astral environment.
And the brow chakra is probably active, or you becoming aware it is active. Trance usually magnifies energy sensations.
Re: Surface Mind Problems
Yay!! I did it! I FINALLY had a conscious OBE for the first time in my life!!!
So I was laying down this morning after I awoke several times while my mom was getting ready for work, and I was trying to have an OBE each time as I tried to fall asleep again...finally I woke up and it felt like my hands were falling asleep (they were crossed on my chest I believe) they were getting tingly...I think I ignored it, I either moved my hands beside my sides or left them there, I can't remember right now...but I kept telling myself to go deeper and deeper and gave myself the falling sensation. At some point I felt a pressure on my lower head..I sometimes feel this feeling when trying to leave my body when it isn't ready and end up moving a physical body part..so I thought that I was actually moving my head, so I relaxed and tried to not move it...then the pressure got a little stronger and went down my neck and I felt it push into the pillow. I still thought I was moving and tried to relax more. I then started seeing hypnagogic imagery in the black/blue tones I described earlier only this time with much more vivid detail...I focused on these, and after a minute my entire body seemed to have rotated in about 180 degrees so my head was now around my foot area. I still didn't think I was having an OBE...I guess this could be cause by the groggy feeling you get when waking up from sleep, still incoherent with reality...finally I felt like I was being shot into the air, I would compare it to the speed of putting something in a sling shot and letting it go. I then went through the wall/ceiling, and all was completely dark, except for a little round white/yellowish light. I THEN realized I was having an OBE and was trying to figure out what was going on. I saw the light, remembered I had been trying to project and it was around 11:00 a.m. I then realized what I was seeing was the sun! I got really excited and as soon as I realized it was the sun, EVERYTHING lit up and I could see the world. As I was in the air falling to the ground I kept saying to myself, I just had my first conscious OBE over and over because I was so excited...I then saw myself about to land and got a little worried because I was kind of high up in the air and I didn't want to hurt myslef...I knew I wouldn't REALLY hurt myself but I landed and fell on my feet then knees and hands, got up and was fine. Then I noticed everything except a part of my left eye (I know you don't actually have EYES there, but for sake as to give a proper description). I then used the Clarity now/ I see perfectly and after I closed my eyes wishing for it, it came and I could see everything. I kept thinking I have to get away from my body as far as I can because I don't want to go back in it....so I was trying so hard not to think about my body that it turned out it was the ONLY thing I WAS thinking about...that annoyed me, but it didn't send me back so I looked around...
I don't think I really projected in the RTZ because the environment I was seeing wasn't really where I lived, I mean it kind of was...but it was definatly backwards so I might have gotten my vision backwards but reversed things still wouldn't have been the same...the building wasn't right even. But the sidewalk was on the wrong side for sure (I think....lol). Alright, so then I knew I had to keep it short in order to remember properly and I had been wanting to try these memory things I'd been talking about, so I sat on my feet with knees to my chest and arms around my legs...and closed my eyes...and said something like, "I want to see a part of my memory"...something like that..I didn't give any specifics...suddenly I saw through closed eyelids a tunnel and felt myself going through it....I ended up at my old house where I grew up in Indiana...
It was dark and I was in the kitchen, all was quiet. I looked around for a second and went into the living room, saw this board type thing in front of the hall way and jumped/floated over it and my step brother screamed at me (we were playing hide and seek, I don't know how I knew this and I couldn't believe that he could even see me anyways.) Anyways we walk down the hallways and into the spare bedroom and I see my dad and stepmom there, she is lying on a futon and dad is sitting in a rocking chair. Neither of them notice me and I realize they can't see me. I sense my other brother is in the bathroom connected to this room....then I see myself laying on the floor asleep. Some point in time the me on the floor dissapears and then my parents can see me and ask me how I got over by the door when I was just on the floor...I don't really remember responding...I got to the futon and give my step mom a hug and sit/lie down....I think I faded into a dream at this point and don't remember any more...
This is so awesome and I don't think I was seeing a memory because I don't remember ever being in that situation...not did we ever have a rocking chair in that room either, so I don't know if my mind just created a dream instead of sending me a memory....maybe it sent me into a memory of the house, who knows...the point is that I actually had a conscious OBE..and I have YOU to thank CFTraveler...telling me to FOCUS on the hypnagogic state was probably the BEST advice anyone has ever given me....it WORKED! The weird thing is that this time I didn't feel any vibrations, and I've always felt them...this was so exciting and I can't wait to do it again...hopefully soon I will be able to do it without having to have sleep relax my body enough and I'll be able to do it...
One other question..whenever I try to have an OBE while sitting in my chair I always get so uncomfortable and can't really relax, even when I lay down in bed now...I always start to feel tired and want to lay on my side...and sitting on my chair I want to go lay down, it's an aggravating feeling and I was wondering if you ever feel this when you try to have an OBE?
Thanks again for your help, this experience has been amazing, and I'm so exicted!!!
Re: Surface Mind Problems
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Thanks again for your help, this experience has been amazing, and I'm so exicted!!!
I'm very happy to see that it worked.
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One other question..whenever I try to have an OBE while sitting in my chair I always get so uncomfortable and can't really relax, even when I lay down in bed now...I always start to feel tired and want to lay on my side...and sitting on my chair I want to go lay down, it's an aggravating feeling and I was wondering if you ever feel this when you try to have an OBE?
Well, when I project I always do it in my comfy recliner, it's 'just right' in terms of inclination, and it helps with the sense of balance being just a little 'off'. I also occasionally project from my bed if I'm too lazy to get up, but to me personally, the exit is easier reclined.
The point is, to use whatever makes you feel comfier. There's no hard and fast rule for this.
Re: Surface Mind Problems
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Originally Posted by silverton64
Yay!! I did it! I FINALLY had a conscious OBE for the first time in my life!!!
That is so exciting! I've never had a conscious exit myself, so I'm going to use some of your details as a guide when I have time/opportunity to relax and meditate. Can't wait to hear more about your next OBE. :D
