Reality of OOBE - Just in the brain or objective?

[heliac]

I havn't really felt any major urge to pursue the objectivity of OOBE after that too much more.

I guess it depends on your goals though. I'm not really trying to project to validate its objectivity.

Me neither- but my reason for posting mine (there are more) is to show that indeed they exist and happen. Whether that's enough is a matter of personal preference.

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I hear ya. I'm finding there are a lot of little things that verify some kind of consistancy within the projecting environment.

Sometimes i will be reading through your posts and will say to myself, hey that same exact thing happened to me too. Or for example I signed up for the PAPI july course and Bob sent an intro email to me with a link to the astraldynamics ebook which i am reading right now. In the ebook there is a picture of how your hands look while out of body and one of the pictures looks like long boney witch like hands. That is how i documented my hands looking while out of body and i had not read this ebook before today.

[dreamosis]

I've tried the playing card experiment once.

The card i saw out of body was a red 3. Couldn't tell what suit.

The actual card was an 8 of diamonds.

Okay, I only ever did two trials with the playing card experiment. The first time I tried to project to the card, it was difficult to read it. I could tell that it was a spade, however, and I was right. I was wrong on the number of spades. I couldn't read the numeral, so I tried to count the number of spades on the card -- but they didn't seem to stay put, everything looked ethereal and misty.

On my second try I saw the right card laid out for me.

This experiment is tricky to do since it's sometimes difficult to distinguish between a real-time zone projection and a waking-induced lucid dream at the beginning of which you experience exit sensations. Usually if I'm projecting into the RTZ, then the quality of my presence within the experience is totally different than the quality of my presence within a WILD. A good, but not surefire, reality test to ascertain whether you're in the RTZ is to try to switch on a light. Typically your hand will pass through the switch, whereas with a WILD, the lights typically work.

This experiment is difficult to do for a number of reasons, but if you're focusing on inducing short projections in your immediate environment, it's something you might as well try to do.

[Sinera]

I can feel with heliac, it can appear to be a hopeless case.

I always seem to be in the LD-state when checking the card, they "WILD"-ly fluctuate before "my eyes" then and I cannot make out a single card, if I do settle on a card anyway (the first or the seemingly most prevalent to me), it turns out to be the wrong one on checking afterwards.
Seems hopeless.

Now I'm tacking a card blindfolded each night/morning right onto the opposite wall of my bed with my face looking directly on it to have the shortest "way" possible, and I wear a dream mask to keep me "blind".

So, theoretically, i would not even have to project/exit, astral sight while vibrating or in trance but staying "in" would do.

And that is my plan now. I had this state already when I got out with heavy jolts and vibrations from a lucid dream, but that was a long time ago now and it did not happen anymore.

Anybody any hint for me how to reach it? Is it possible with commands, e.g. saying "focus on RTZ" or something?

[heliac]

Hi Vogerle,

I didn't really mean to say it's hopeless. When i saw the red 3 instead of the 8 of diamonds i actually thought i was pretty close being that an 8 and a 3 look kind of similar.

I just haven't really had the urge to try to verify objective reality through oobe yet. Maybe later on when i can actually get some good control and learn a little more but for now i'm just trying to focus on getting oob more consistently and with more clarity.

[dreamosis]

Anybody any hint for me how to reach it? Is it possible with commands, e.g. saying "focus on RTZ" or something?

Auto-suggestions are worth a shot. Once you're in trance, try mentally saying to yourself over and over again something like, "I'm in the Real Time Zone."

[Barbon]

(please, no questions like "what do you mean by "real" or "objective" - you know what I mean).

LOL I laffed at this. I know what the person is thinking here I just get irritated when I ask a question in some forum and someone has to shoot it down and use this annoying thing like "well what is REAL?" or "what is validation?" I think to myself ahhh FFS!! I not here to get into this crap for gods sake you know what I mean!! it almost seems to be a trend these days for people to query basic things like "what is normal?" that annoys me too.

[Guitarmaster72]

wait, so OBE's aren't merely imaginations of the mind or dreams, but are actual objects? i figured since dreams are workings of the subconscious, OBE's would work in a similar way. the way i see it, is that you can get induced into a trance so deep that you lose a sense of your physical being and merely imagining yourself come out of your body are just a working of the subconscious creating an image like that of a dream, only the dream happening is the OBE/AP.

are OBE's/AP's really actual beings from inside your phyisical self, and not mere subconscious images, such as dreams? how is that so? wouldn't this be more of a religious way of looking at it? you know, with the thought of each one of us have a "soul"? or is it not like that? i haven't done a whole lot of research on this, (beyond figuring how to even do it) but imo, i would imagine that and OBE/AP would be losing a sense of feeling your physical self, and your subconscious creates an image of your non -physical being because it lost communication with your physical self. almost like your subconscious knows you don't have a connection with your physical self, and it wants to give you a body to use (being your non-physical body) so your conscious brain doesn't get confused, or think something's wrong. isn't it the subconscious's job to make the best sense of what's going on? i think a good reason behind why some weird dreams that would never happen in reality are perceived to be real in the dream, could be the subconscious mind taking a break from creating sensable scenarios because it doesn't have to give your conscious brain a sensable image, because it knows it's asleep. but in a lucid dream, the subconcsious doesn't know the conscious has become awake, so the conscious mind can create it's own sense of what's going on. i could be wrong though, this is just the way i see it, but it makes sense to me.

[ButterflyWoman]

wait, so OBE's aren't merely imaginations of the mind or dreams, but are actual objects?

Everything you experience is your own brain processing input and signals, and your mind (which is not the same as your brain) deciding what it is, how it fits into your reality, etc. This is not just a spiritual viewpoint. It's basic neuroscience.

wouldn't this be more of a religious way of looking at it? you know, with the thought of each one of us have a "soul"?

That's a big question, and probably better off on a thread of its own, or in one of the many threads already dedicated to the concept of souls and self-awareness, etc.

Generally speaking, most people experience the astral as being part of that which Jung called the Collective Unconscious. OBE may take place in the astral or in that which is called the Real Time Zone (RTZ). The things that people experience in any dream, lucid or not, or any OBE tend to be quite personal, though in some cases, OBE does show things that can be later verified (such as seeing someone in a specific location at a specific time, and having this confirmed later, but that's only one of many, many possibilities).

And, yes, dreams, lucid dreams, OBE, all of that is still your mind interpreting input, so it's as "real" or "not real" as anything else you can experience.

[CFTraveler]

Adding my two cents: What we experience as OBEs and/or dreams are our consciousness processing perception; where the information comes from is sometimes the question. That's why we have validations, group experiences, and precognitive experiences.
The 'how' of it from a purely scientific point of view can be found in Yamabushi's topic in the Science and Spirituality subforum, if you agree with his theories. (Which are fascinating.)
There is no need to believe these experiences are subjectified but 'objective'- but sometimes it's obvious it's more than just brain tricks, and it makes it much more interesting.