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Thread: What are the limitations of the Astral?

  1. #21
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    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    Quote Originally Posted by dan4112 View Post
    As a follow up I'll just say that there are two sides to this coin. On one hand you've got near-death experiencers who try desperately to communicate with others, sometimes even screaming at the person "I'm right here, can't you see me?" They inevitably find that they can't communicate with the living, even though they can hear and see the living sometimes even becomming aware of their thoughts.
    Usually they can't communicate with the conscious person, but if the other person is unconscious, there is communication- with the person's energy body. That's why they can 'receive information'- it's not communication as they have learned to know it, but it's communication nonetheless.
    Many people who OBE (including yours truly) have found that they see people who are sleeping (or rather, their energy bodies) and find that they can sometimes communicate with them (two-way) if the other person is in trance- recall happens from both. But if the other person is asleep they often either don't remember or remember having a dream about the other person, or if they're awake have no conscious memory, or remember 'all of a sudden' thinking of the other person.
    So the divide isn't really as clearcut as it seems.

    On the other hand you've got these hypnotic regression therapists and mediums saying that spirits can attach themselves to you, drain your energy and give you thoughts or unexplained urges to do something.
    Of course, you are looking at how they interpret the information that they're 'psychically' given, there is more than one way to interpret this.

    ..these other disembodied entities have figured it out?
    Besides spirits, I'd imagine that 'astral dwellers', i.e. disembodied beings that have never been physical should know how to communicate in their own native medium, it seems to me. Even if we 'physical' beings are just visiting (which is debatable), at some point they'd learn the howto, unless they're not complex enough. Or so I would think.

    Has anyone ever seen any of this spirit attachment while out of body?
    Some projectors have, yes, but as far as I can remember, not 'spirit' attachment as much as 'entity' attachment. (See wildlife in the AD pedia or Robert's writings on self defense on the main site).

    Anyone ever experimented with affecting the living while obe?
    Many have, yes, but mostly with unsatisfying results. Monroe wrote about his in his first (or second) book, and others have too. I'd try the parapsychology subforum to see if you find anything there.
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  2. #22
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    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    The main obstacle of communicating with the living through OBE is that the living would have had to develop their psychic abilities to perceive that. Statistically this would imply most such communication attempts fail or are not verifiable in a direct way - like symbolic experiences that are not literally the same as what the sender tried to communicate.

  3. #23

    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    Interesting thoughts, but I think it will help to give a specific example of the confusion.In Monroe's book "Journey's Out of the Body" he describes an experiment where he went out of body to a woman's house and tried to pinch her.Now, she actually was able to feel his pinch, but doesn't remember anything else out of the ordinary (pages 56-57). The "astral" pinch even left brown and blue marks at the exact spot where he pinched her. So here we have a clear example of someone in the out of body state able to effect physical reality. However, take a look at Monroe's second book "Far Journey's" on pages 192-193 and you will find lots of examples where spirits try to interact with physical reality, whether it's trying to pick up a cigarrette butt or standing in the street with a knife slashing through passersby, but are completely unable to. The woman's hand passes right through the cigarette butt and the man with the knife slashes away, but no one in the physical gets hurt or starts bleeding.

    The thousand dollar question is, why was Monroe able to effect physical reality, but these other spirits cannot? Is this a random anomaly?

    Another very fascinating case comes from the book "Sight Unseen" by Budd Hopkins and Carol Rainey. It is the story of the supposed abduction ofKatharina (see chapter 6, specifically pgs. 148-150 of the eBook). She was apparently abducted while she was at O'Hare airport. She reports going to the restroom right after landing at 2:10pm. She was able to use the toilet, open and shut doors, and work the soap dispenser. The anomaly starts when she can't get any of the automatic sensors controlling the water faucets to activate. In effect, they weren't registering her body heat. Then, she asked another woman in the bathroom a question and got no response, although the woman did glance in her direction. A few minutes later she reports calling her husband, however the time was now 3:20pm, more than an hour later than it should have been. And then she mysteriously makes it to the baggage claim to meet her friends, not remembering how she got there and looking at her watch to see that it is 3:20pm, as if she hung up the phone with her husband and arrived almost instantaneously at the baggage claim area.

    Now this is a confusing story and at first I want to say that she was travelling in the "invisible" or the astral at the time all this happened. That's why the lady in the bathroom didn't respond, because she couldn't see or hear her. And that's why she couldn't register on the automatic hand washes, even though other ladies in the same restroom had no trouble.Also, it could explain how she was able to move so fast from one place to another. The problem with this explanation is, how was she able to use the bathroom and operate the soap dispenser, two very physical activities?

    My only explanation at this point is something John Magnus discusses in hisbook "Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality." He talks about how he would often find himself in an astral replica of his room after going OBE. It might look similar, but have furniture that he's never had or things might be out of place. Anyway, he describes this as his mind essentially creating a non-physical replica of his room based on all his old memories and expectations (see pgs. 228-229 for a clear explanation and example). So, based on Magnus's work, I'm thinking that maybe she was just in an astral replica of an airport bathroom and the person she saw didn't even exist in physical reality. But, then again there is an example in Monroe's work of effecting the physical. And I've read books by mediums that say that ghosts, if they have alot of energy, can make things manifest in the physical and manipulate physical objects. So, maybe she could still push the lever to get soap and open the bathroom door. But then, wouldn't the soap just fall through her astral hands?

    So, you begin to see how confusing all this is. That was the purpose of the post from the beginning, find out what you can and can't do in the Astral. However, the more I look into it, it starts to look like there aren't any real limitations. Then, the big question pertains to why are the limitations different for some than for others. Why was Monroe able to pinch a woman, but the person in far journeys who is trying to kill people on the street isn't successful? Why do most spirits just find their hands passing right through physical objects, but (possibly) Katharina was able to open doors and operate a soap dispenser?

    I don't think it will suffice to say that it's a matter of belief. I don'tthink Monroe had a belief one way or another that he could effect the physical, nor did Katharina have any idea she was even in the astral. So then, what does make the difference? Also, any thoughts on possible interpretations on the case studies I have presented would be welcome.


  4. #24
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    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    Hello, dan4112.

    The interaction between Monroe and the woman could be a psychic phenomenon. Her (body?) consciousness might have agreed to produce the sensation/effects he was trying to induce. Such an agreement can be unconscious or with the body consciousness itself. One of the benefits of such an agreement could have been that Monroe got some proof as to the reality of his experiences, which made him pursue his talents more, which in my opinion was something he definitely was here for to do and ultimately benefitted many people.

    Monroe's astral body was also much more developed and capable than I would expect that of any lower astral deceased spirit (shade) to be. According to Kurt Leland, a shade cannot readily modify its vibrational frequency. It cannot chose what plane and subplane is on, and finds itself attracted to the place in the astral that resembles the energies stored in its own astral body most. So say the theosophists when describing the astral afterlife. By releasing certain problematic energies over time, shades rise through the afterlife to higher planes.

    An experienced astral projector like Monroe can often access many different vibrational frequencies, and a skilled one might therefore be able to shift closer towards the physical and farther away in vibration. The shades could not, but I would think Monroe could. In fact, he could later at will phase onto several different planes. Kurt Leland thinks that Monroe at the end had full access to the physical/etheric, astral and mental planes. (He said so in "The Multidimensional Human" when comparing Monroe's accounts with his model of the energy bodies.)

    Similarly, the shades might not have been able to create direct physical effects. I think it is however Monroe that relates that they could affect people (and be attracted to them) that were right then in a similar state to which they were drawn to, for example deceased alcoholics to alive alcoholics who drank themselves into an uncontrolled state.

    Oliver

  5. #25

    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    So, you're suggesting that to affect the physical one has to have a more developed energy body, or the living person's consciousness/subconscious must agree to produce the effects, or a living person has to be in a similar state as the shade, like an alcoholic or constant worrier. Interesting. I'll have to get this book by Kurt Leland. I keep hearing him mentioned. Anybody read "Projections of the Consciousness" by Waldo Vieira? That's next on my reading list.

  6. #26
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    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    Anybody read "Projections of the Consciousness" by Waldo Vieira? That's next on my reading list.
    You may want to ask in the 'Book/Media' section. I've read something from Vieira, but I can't remember what.
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  7. #27

    Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    I think whether you are in the physical or astral all your experiences with other entities are "permission based." This is why the disciplines with energy, meditation, emotional and mind or consciousness control is so important. Giving into fear, imagination or even one's superstitions could make one's OBE and astral adventures terrifying.

    What you THINK exists in the astral / mental areas, indeed EXISTS. In fact, it is as if all energetic bodies and realities exist to parody the endless multitude of beliefs and non-beliefs that we can potentially experience consciously, subconsciously and unconsciously in projections, dreams, and obe's. I think this is why some people seem to have like a "Dungeon & Dragons" experience bubble, and full on fantasy, instead of recognizing what is really around them. If you use the astral realms as a theme park, then that is what you get. If you use it as a scientific laboratory, then you will be given endless experiments. If you use it like the Last Frontier and plan to map and survey it, then that is what you experience. If you use it to heal and help others and yourself, then you will find guides to help you. What is then real?

    You either need to be solidly based in a belief system that gives you protection and parameters for your experience, or completely blank slated (wiped clean of all preconceived notions), but awakened to a sense of higher self / Source protection, to experience the astral realms in a way of understanding and control. And that is applicable whether you are alive or dead in the physical earthly reality, and entering the astral realms consciously for the first time or not. You will experience what you think you are at the deepest part of yourself.
    Last edited by imogen; 26th February 2012 at 09:40 AM.
    The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. ~ Albert Einstein

  8. Re: What are the limitations of the Astral?

    Astral does not exist without the observer who perceives it and pays attention to it (just like our physical world). So all the limitations are self-imposed and have to do with how far your imagination can take you (just like in our physical world).

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