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Thread: Study Paper

  1. #1
    enoch Guest

    Study Paper

    After a few thoughts about MRI this afternoon, followed by some 'googlin', I found this excellent neurological study paper into OBE.

    There's a lot to absorb; I've not read it properly myself yet because I wanted to share it with you - that way we can hopefully return in-line with some comments. There's a clever link allowing you to download the 16 pages in pdf format for printing.

    Here's the link: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /127/2/243

    So, what does thee think?


    edit: further study by same author: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/550

  2. #2
    Guest
    Whoever wrote that desperately needs to look up in a dictionary the definition of a run-on sentence.

    It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove. Regardless of the science and what it shows, I have a theory that ♥♥♥♥♥s all their theories. Even if it is found that disassociation is responsible for OBE experiences and there is some kind of chemical reaction happening to cause this, that doesn't disprove OBE. Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here.

    My theory is that the soul tinkers with the brain/mind to create these experiences. And, if you agree with Robert Monroe, we really don't "go" anywhere, it is all from within. In other words, consciousness (soul) does not have a residence. But, because of it's nature, it is actually working the body/mind as a puppet. It is using consciousness strings to manipulate the puppet. So, some strings would be attached to parts of the physical brain. Sort of like chakras are energetically attached to certain parts of the body. Whatever they might find physically (scientifically), it is still possbile that the soul is controlling things. *mumbles, yeh, yeh, science doesn't recognize the existence of the soul*

  3. #3
    enoch Guest
    yeh yeh

    I read it; all 16 pages and it read like japanese to me. One needs a thorough knowledge of neurobiological definitions in order to grasp it.

    But it does raise issues. With the advent of MRI in the 1990's (so infantile a technique) and PET, I believe it's only a matter of time (isn't it always) before the 'code is cracked' on obe. We're talking maybe 50 years I reckon. I'm discovering more and more interest (through google) from universities. The issue is definately stirring the curiosity of the neuroscientific world.

    phg said: Even if it is found that disassociation is responsible for OBE experiences and there is some kind of chemical reaction happening to cause this, that doesn't disprove OBE.

    Off course it doesn't disprove obe, but it will explain it. It's quite exciting because people like me (who can't obe) may, in time, be capable of projecting.

    phg: It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove

    Indeed it does.

  4. #4
    Senheiser Guest
    Eh, can someone simplify this for me? I kept reading untill i tought, wait.... i don't understand a dam. thing....:cry:

    Are they saying OBE's are nothing more then illusions coused by some brain activity? Or are they trying to find connection between OBE and neuropsychology.

  5. #5
    enoch Guest
    Maybe it would be easier to quote from the conclusions:-

    In conclusion, we propose a neuroscientific theory that accounts for the three main forms of AP: AS, he-autoscopy and OBE. We argue that these complex illusory reduplications of one’s own body result from a double disintegration in: (i) personal space; and (ii) between personal and extrapersonal space at the TPJ. The unconscious creation of central representation(s) of one’s own body based on proprioceptive, tactile, visual and vestibular information, and their integration with central representations of extrapersonal space is a prerequisite for rapid and effective action in our surroundings. We speculate that significant ambiguous input from these different sensory systems and, especially the vestibular system, are important mechanisms in the intriguing experience of seeing one’s body in a position that does not coincide with the felt position of one’s body.

    The problem we face here (as laymen) is understanding the jargon. The fact that there is no peer response to this article is another factor preventing a balanced review. But it's something I'll keep me eyes on in the future.

    Another (important) issue raised is the individual's response to obe based on their beliefs and culture. PHG, above, is a good example: if we study her reply in any depth we realise that:-

    a) She hasn't read the report thoroughly, but she bounces back confidently with her own set of beliefs which serve to reinforce her worldview. This could be taken as a blind rejection, or a defense, in the face of "opposing" evidence.

    b) She writes: It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove which we could deduce as meaning: I do not want them to prove anything.

    c) Why?

    d) She says: if you agree with Robert Monroe

    Phg, in this case, has no problems atall agreeing with Robert Monroe despite the fact that Robert Monroe has never presented any firm evidence for his beliefs. (It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove) Phg, in comparison, has no evidence for her beliefs either, but it may not be a case, in this instance, of neutrally seeking the answers (or the truth of the matter) but more a need to reinforce a "an ideal" worldview. Whilst phg may eagerly read and absorb whole texts by author Robert Monroe, she resists digesting this particular study. Is this a biased response? And why?

    ?

    Any expansion on this, phg?

  6. #6
    Guest
    Here's my response....



    We argue that these complex illusory reduplications of one’s own body result from a double disintegration in: (i) personal space; and (ii) between personal and extrapersonal space at the TPJ.
    In other words, it's all in your head (imagination).

    Which still doesn't preclude my theory that the soul tinkers with the physiology of the brain. Not to mention that scientists have yet to define or find a residence for consciousness.

    FYI, Monroe has much Empirical Data. There isn't any branch of science that doesn't include, to some degree, Empirical Data. Although, many scientists would like us to believe the contrary. The world was once flat according to the "scientists" of the day. And, witches were from Satan and should be burned at the stake.

    Wikipedia says in regards to Scientific Theory and Paradigm shifts:
    Paradigm shifts tend to be most dramatic in sciences that appear to be stable and mature, as in physics at the end of the 19th century. At that time, physics seemed to be a discipline filling in the last few details of a largely worked-out system. In 1900, Lord Kelvin famously stated, "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement." Five years later, Albert Einstein published his paper on special relativity, which challenged the very simple set of rules laid down by Newtonian mechanics, which had been used to describe force and motion for over three hundred years. In this case, the new paradigm reduces the old to a special case (Newtonian mechanics is an excellent approximation for speeds that are slow compared to the speed of light).
    Besides, I said it was a friggin' THEORY (hypotheses) of mine. And, no, I haven't used the Scientific method to find measurable evidence.
    Phg, in comparison, has no evidence for her beliefs either, but it may not be a case, in this instance, of neutrally seeking the answers (or the truth of the matter) but more a need to reinforce a "an ideal" worldview.
    Them's fightin' words, mister!

  7. #7
    jsf Guest
    Hi,
    I read and translated (in french) this paper. What I found the most intersting point is that by some electrical stimulations they succeed to induce an OBE.
    An OBE was induced three times at 3.5 mA. Immediately after the first stimulation, Patient 3 reported: "I see myself lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs".
    We know very little about the neurobiological processes, and it could be great if we could create a device that can automatically induce an astral (or RTZ) projection.

  8. #8
    enoch Guest
    oh, phg, you do crack me up!

    What's the 'TPJ', phg?

    Just to educate you: a hypothesis and a theory are completely different, btw.

    In response to jsf: There is such a device If you're interested in this area then I'd recommend reading Persinger. He's been stimulating the temporal lobes for a few years, inducing obes in volunteers. In fact, he can also induce these states remotely which became the foundation for his argument that if aliens wanted to seize control of the earth they'd use remote brain scramblers that would leave us suspended in a hallucinatory never-world. maybe they already have, lol

    It's quite an amazing field, all the same. Here's a little fact-bite: there are a thousand million connections in a portion of brain the size of a grain of sand. I suppse that's a good a reason as any to hold fire!

    Monroe has much Empirical Data Really? care to share? I'm gonna have to get meself some Monroe.

  9. #9
    Guest
    Jeez, Enoch, do I really have to keep answering your sophomoric, rhetorical questions?
    What's the 'TPJ', phg?
    I have no idea, remember, I didn't read the paper. So, quit trying to test me, you're not my professor.

    Seriously, though, neurosurgeons have known for years that they can stimulate certain areas of the brain to produce OBE-like experiences. Seems they are doing some "tinkering" themselves.

    Enoch said:
    Just to educate you: a hypothesis and a theory are completely different, btw.
    Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
    hypothesis
    hy·poth·e·sis
    Pronunciation: hI-'pä-th&-s&s
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural hy·poth·e·ses /-"sEz/
    Etymology: Greek, from hypotithenai to put under, suppose, from hypo- + tithenai to put -- more at DO
    1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
    2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
    3 : the antecedent clause of a conditional statement
    synonyms HYPOTHESIS, THEORY




    Ehem...regarding Monroe, he has discussed his experiments in all three books. Rosalind McKnight, one of his "experiencers" has also authored books about her experiences as one of his original test subjects. The Monroe Institute is known all over the world for it's experiments to try to prove, empirically, that OBE is a viable, testable experience. While there, we toured the lab where experiments are still ongoing, using many professional people (i.e. - Psychiartists, computer experts, Physicians, Scientists, etc.) as test subjects. His original group of experiencers, decades ago, were composed mostly of the same type of professionals. Monroe's 3 books are anecdotal, but do include in the back explanations of how they performed the experiments. Enoch, I think you'd enjoy his books.

  10. #10
    enoch Guest
    Theory and Hypothesis
    A theory is a well-established principle that has been developed to explain some aspect of the natural word. A theory arises from repeated observation and testing and incorporates facts, laws, predictions, and tested hypotheses that are widely accepted.

    A hypothesis is a specific, testable prediction about what you expect to happen in your study.


    check here for confirmation: http://wilstar.com/theories.htm



    The TPJ is the temporoparietal junction. I asked this question because you said "In other words, it's all in your head (imagination). " Which isn't the case atall.


    While the recent experiments with the Carmelite nuns have been unable to identify a definitive GOD spot in the brain, it seems that the pre-surgery electrical stimulation of the brain of an epileptic patient has shed light on a potential ghost spot.

    When the Temporo-pareital junction (TPJ) was stimulated, the woman felt the presence of a shadow behind her that was taking the same posture as herself.

    The woman described the shadow person as young, silent, and mirroring her position as she lay on her back. "He is behind me, almost at my body, but I do not feel it," she said, according to the doctors.

    Next, the researchers stimulated the same spot in the woman's brain as she sat up with her arms wrapped around her knees.

    Again, the woman sensed the shadow presence. This time she said the man was sitting behind her and had his arms around her.

    Lastly, the woman sat up, holding a card in her right hand, for another brain test that involved stimulating the same brain area. She once more sensed the shadow person.

    "He wants to take the card. He doesn't want me to read," the woman reportedly said.

    This has interesting implications for Schizophrenia research and the Nature article does hint at that. Specifically, abnormal brain activity in the TPJ may give rise to a feeling of a shadowy person following the schizophrenic subject always. This sense of being watched may give rise to a host of related syndromes. This may give rise to a sense of paranoia, delusions of persecution , delusions of alien control (when hugging your knee it may seem the shadow was using its hand to force yours or the prior act of bending forward by the shadow may be implicated as causing oneself to bend forward) and other delusions like the alien hand syndrome. Interesting to note that the epileptic woman in question assigns bad motives to the shadow. ("he doesn't want me to take the card")

    It would be interesting to investigate, what abnormalities, if any, in the TPJ are present in the Schizophrenics subjects.

    I'll have a look for some monroe from amazon.

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