Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies.

[Ouroboros]

If this (earth) illusion is going to veto my attempts to create and experience, and my illusory dreams are going to do the same, and knowing that there is no separation between myself, the Source of all creation and creation itself doesn't change that... I'd kind of like to know where and when I can "do that." Heh.

Dude...you pretty much summed up my stance exactly. Cuz that's pretty much one of the major things I'm struggling with right now. If I can't do it here, where and when can I do it? Hmm...that actually be playing a more major role than I previously thought, as a kind of stumbling block. I'm almost obsessed with that question.

[Tempestinateapot]

The whole point of this thread is about waking up and what that means. It seems to have devolved into a debate about how to make a sandwich in the real world. No one who is awake would debate the need for making adjustments to living in the 3D world. Of course it's necessary. Walter knows how to make a sandwich, and doesn't try to conjure one up just because he ultimately thinks it's an illusion.

Star said:

If your interested in the mystical side energy cultivation will help you get to a point where that sort of information becomes available, and its easier to understand and reach than enlightenement in my opinion.

I completely disagree (sorry Star). I've been doing energy work for years, am a Reiki Master/Teacher, a Quantum Touch practitioner, and have been to so many of Robert's energy work workshops (3 live and 1 internet) that I could almost do one myself. At one point, I overdeveloped my energy body to the point that my physical body couldn't keep up, and as a result had an almost 4 hour Samadhi experience that took a year to recover from. I don't think this gave me enlightenment. It certainly gave me a view and a perspective that was mind blowing where I became (or merged with if you like) God and had all knowingness. As awesome as that was, and as awesome as other similar experiences I've had are, I can't say with certainty that they are real. I don't know what they are. Yes, they showed me that life as I know it right now is an illusion, that I am more than I "think" I am. I don't just talk theory, through energy work and meditation I've become my oversoul. I've walked the walk, not just read about it in books. I seem to skip right on past the RTZ (real time zone) and head straight for the higher and highest levels. Godangit, why can't I have just one RTZ experience? Regardless of what I've been through, I can't get around "the only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist". These OBE experiences have taught me about illusion. But, I still can't know if those experiences, themselves, are illusions. Am I repeating myself? Yes, and I will again. The only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist. The rest are just guesses.

[wstein]

Waking up is not about removing everything that's you. It often involves removing things that are NOT you, but that is just the lead-up. A lot of waking up is about realizing that much of what you thought of as you actually isn't, and much of what you thought of as 'other' is actually so connected with you that it might well be part of you too.

Yeah, I've done a lot of "removing what isn't me" although as far as "other," that's something I've learned to define according to the experience I want to have at a given time. Conceptually I can see how others could be considered "me," especially in light of ideas from quantum physics. Although in practice, I draw boundaries in order to experience within them; when I feel like I've done all I can or want to do within those boundaries I'll probably expand them. Early on in my spiritual exploration I started defining everything as "part of myself" and found that that wasn't going to fly for the practical purpose of living in a 3D world, because elements of that world took this as "that guy has no personal boundaries, so there's nothing to stop us from having our way with him." Boundaries may be as illusory as the lines we draw between states and countries, but in certain contexts they're a useful illusion... and I can still say "this is my personal space" while realizing that it's only "mine" for the sake of convenience.

Its not about removing boundaries so much. As you point out, they serve a practical value. Its about realizing that the boundaries are arbitrarily defined by you. There is no inherent separation but rather a continuum of connection. Expand them or don't expand them, place them wherever works for you at the moment.

Part of the big realization is that being incarnate makes you utterly dependant on much which you rather believe is not connected to you. You may choose to identify as separate from lots of stuff, but that does not free you from dealing with it. Pretty much there are no humans are able to free themselves from the higher self. The best I've heard of is a kind of "Mexican standoff" where neither does what the other wants.

Sure, but does "having to deal with it" necessarily = "having to identify with it"? There's a lot of stuff I have to depend on in order to survive in a 3D world, and while that may influence the identity I take with me, presumably the bulk of it that's body-related will be left behind with the body. I've also had some experience of everything being interconnected at the energetic level like a web, which you could see either as a single whole or a bunch of interconnected parts IMO.

Identity is more or less another way to look at boundaries. Things are connected on many levels including physical, energetic, spiritual, and many more. This idea of seeing it in one way (separate) or another (connected) is on the right track. Doing both or many is also possible. Its all about you changing your perspective rather than any real change in connectedness. As per 'The Matrix', "Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."

[star]

The whole point of this thread is about waking up and what that means. It seems to have devolved into a debate about how to make a sandwich in the real world. No one who is awake would debate the need for making adjustments to living in the 3D world. Of course it's necessary. Walter knows how to make a sandwich, and doesn't try to conjure one up just because he ultimately thinks it's an illusion.

Star said:

If your interested in the mystical side energy cultivation will help you get to a point where that sort of information becomes available, and its easier to understand and reach than enlightenement in my opinion.

I completely disagree (sorry Star). I've been doing energy work for years, am a Reiki Master/Teacher, a Quantum Touch practitioner, and have been to so many of Robert's energy work workshops (3 live and 1 internet) that I could almost do one myself. At one point, I overdeveloped my energy body to the point that my physical body couldn't keep up, and as a result had an almost 4 hour Samadhi experience that took a year to recover from. I don't think this gave me enlightenment. It certainly gave me a view and a perspective that was mind blowing where I became (or merged with if you like) God and had all knowingness. As awesome as that was, and as awesome as other similar experiences I've had are, I can't say with certainty that they are real. I don't know what they are. Yes, they showed me that life as I know it right now is an illusion, that I am more than I "think" I am. I don't just talk theory, through energy work and meditation I've become my oversoul. I've walked the walk, not just read about it in books. I seem to skip right on past the RTZ (real time zone) and head straight for the higher and highest levels. Godangit, why can't I have just one RTZ experience? Regardless of what I've been through, I can't get around "the only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist". These OBE experiences have taught me about illusion. But, I still can't know if those experiences, themselves, are illusions. Am I repeating myself? Yes, and I will again. The only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist. The rest are just guesses.

That is confusing! I am staying with that idea, that endurance is the key. I think it was something like: "Keep playing, it never ends" Or as I keep hearing on the forum. "It doesn't matter, I just want it to end." That last statement might be true, but I think it's the shadow side of the deal. Or at least I would try and convince myself that I enjoyed the idea, but then I keep thinking how awesome it would be to take leave back to Nevada and traverse Red Rock Canyon again. Mojave desert, mah fav. I came across this idea that if I keep playing I'll get the answers at some point, but I want to enjoy the game as oppsed to feeling oppressed by it.
I made a friend in a parrallel universe, or whatever they are called, she visits from time to time and is better than myself at that sort of travel. But from what I can tell if I want to get a better understanding of life/other worlds/ myself/ crazy enlightenement stuff, I have to be able to live it, or find a reason for living if that makes sense.
Hmm, if your wondering if something like OBE is realy or not I'd say that its as real as being able to physically poke people while projected, or make changes to that persons energy via the projection. If that helps anyway. What is your enviroment like? Do you live with people who like life, laugh alot, and enjoy your company? It helps to internalize feelings of happiness and life. I have to do it the hard way sometimes.

[ButterflyWoman]

That is confusing!

It's difficult, and in many cases impossible, to accurately or clearly describe understandings that come from a meta point of view. Language is extremely materialistic, and a product of material culture and a material mind. It doesn't lend itself easily to stuff outside of material reality.

[ButterflyWoman]

http://precisionchange.com/2009/04/03/t ... formation/

I came across that article, which is about the dangers of spiritual transformation. It reminded me of this thread, so I thought I'd post it.

I also came across a quote, apparently from an interview with Jed McKenna:

if it feels like you’re being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it’s probably the process of awakening.

I would add, however, that while it can be very difficult, painful, etc., I think a lot depends on your own attitude and the state of your ego. Some people do appear to awaken easily and without undue suffering, just as some women apparently give birth with minimal effort...

[Timotheus]

[Tom]

A little awareness just makes things worse because you see how bad things are and you are still stuck. It is possible to remain at this stage for a very long time.

[Tempestinateapot]

OlderWiser quoted Jed McKenna:

if it feels like you’re being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it’s probably the process of awakening.

This is about awakening during enlightenment. It's about seeing your ego for what it really is...how there's nothing left after you take away all it's props. It's not about after the process, or as I said "beyond enlightnenment". As Tom said, you can get stuck in the process for a very long time. I think the Zen monks who committed suicide were still stuck in the process. Later, McKenna talks about about being "done", meaning you are done with the process. When I started this thread, I wasn't really done. I was still in an anger phase, which would be too long to go into here.

Once you have been through it, and are "done", you realize you can do anything with your life. It's not a depressing thing, it's a freeing thing. To put it another way, I no longer feel guilt, I no longer feel a need to impress anyone, I no longer feel a need to conform to what anyone else says is the way things should be. I have no boundaries between right and wrong. I see the beauty in how the world works, and admire the awful as well as the good. The world has become amazing to me, and not just the "good" parts. The whole idea of creation is amazing. We reach into the nothingness and create experiences constantly. There is no right or wrong about it, it just is. We are gods unto ourselves, but there is no separation between us. Everything we do affects the rest of creation, because there is only One Mind.

I can't speak to what has happened to McKenna, to Tom, or to anyone else. I only know what has happened to me, and the transformation that I have been through. I don't have a barometer any more that tells me what is good and what isn't. It's all good. I see beauty in ugliness. I see beauty in beauty. I see the experiences that people create, and think it's amazing. I see people getting all wrapped up in saving the environment, concerned about every little plastic bag they throw away and where it should go. Good for them! But, I also often think, don't they realize they are trying to hold back the sands of time? The earth is finite. It will not last forever, no matter how many clean cars we create. I see people around me doing whatever they can to stay young. Good for them! But, I also often think, don't they see the futiity? You can't stop aging. Your physical body is going to die. It's crazy, it's wonderful, it's amazing.

[ButterflyWoman]

It's not about after the process, or as I said "beyond enlightnenment".

Fair enough.

I was very taken by Adyashanti's take on the "after awakening" process, though, I must say (in "The End of Your World"). Jed McKenna doesn't actually say a great deal about the "after" part, only invites the reader to "come and see for yourself", which is probably pretty reasonable, given the nature of the subject at hand. Jed's more about kicking you into gear to take that First Step.

As the cliche goes, look out for that First Step... it's a doozy.