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Thread: Franz Bardon astral travel vs. Astral Dynamics

  1. #1
    Jester101 Guest

    Franz Bardon astral travel vs. Astral Dynamics

    Dear Robert,

    on several occasions on this page/forum you have pointed the readers to Franz Bardons books. I've also found a website on the internet dealing especially with Franz Bardons books (abardoncompanion.com).

    My question is: How does your technique of astral travelling relates to that of Franz Bardon. The author of the website I mentioned above wrote an answer to this question from his sight at:

    http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Warning.html

    and

    http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Wandering2.html

    I am very very curious about how both systems relate to each other. Do you agree with these two links? This would explain especially the interferences in the real-time zone.

    And if it's not already too much to answer, I would further like to know how your energy work relates to the work of Franz Bardon? Does he use a different terminology or do you think this is something he didn't cover?

    Thanks a lot for your time Robert, I really appreciate your work.

  2. #2

    Robert Bruce's retort on Rawn Clark's critique of OBE method

    G'day!


    I have a lot of respect for Rawn Clark, but disagree on some of his points concerning my work and the OBE astral projection methods I teach.

    I do not think Rawn has read my work on OBE, based on the posts quoted below, although I did send Rawn a copy of Astral Dynamics a few years ago.

    First, let me make it clear that I do not advise anyone to jump ahead or to skip any of the steps given in Bardon's training system 'Initiation Into Hermetics'. The ultimate purpose of completing Bardon's training system will be circumvented if the steps are not completed in order. I offer similar advice to people following my system for OBE, in that jumping ahead to the OBE exit methods without the information and instruction that comes earlier is unwise, and will often cause problems and push the target of awake OBE further away.

    One big point here, I think, is the effectiveness of Bardon's astral projection technique. As a stand alone OBE technique it is vague and will not be effective unless steps 1 through 8 of IIH have been accomplished. So this disagreement is a bit of a moot point really.

    The underlying principles of the astral projection methods I teach are similar to those of Franz Bardon, and the end result is the same for basic OBE, basic astral projection. Some of Bardon's methods are for more refined versions of OBE, yes, but the basic underlying natural mechanisms at work are the same.

    The actual phenomena, astral projection, has many variations, depending upon energy body chakra configuration and activity, but all OBE's involve the same basic phenomena. The terminology and concepts surrounding astral and mental projection differ between Franz Bardon's work and my own, and many other authors and teachers for that matter, but the underlying mechanisms and phenomena are all the same.

    Most people, as children, begin astral projecting spontaneously early in life. This is a natural phenomena. But most people lose the memory of this type of experience for various reasons - this is discussed in my books on this subject at length.

    Countless observations and experience tell me that everyone projects every time they sleep. Domesticated animals also project, I have frequently observed, eg, cats and dogs. I have not had the opportunity to observe farm or wild animals.

    Full astral projection does cause a sensation of fear during the exit. On this aspect I agree with Rawn. I experience this and many people I work with feel some degree of fear during the exit out of body. This may be, as Rawn states, to some extent due to natural fear of death triggered by separating from the physical body mind.

    This sensation of fear is also caused by the energies and the mechanism involved with astral projection. For example, when an astral projection is in progress, and the astral double is near its physical body mind, the physical body mind will experience feelings of fear and dread, often sensed as coming from a particular direction. The physical body will be fully or partially paralysed at this time, eg, what I call 'waking paralysis' and what others call 'sleep paralysis'.

    This shows the mind split effect at work, in that two awake copies of mind exist simultaneously during astral projection. This is of course only noticeable when the physical body mind awakens during an astral projection, while this is in progress.

    I have experimented with the mind split during astral projection and it the physical body mind is awake and I connect with this, strong feelings of fear and a type of energy feedback are sensed by both the astral body and the physical body mind.

    (I have extensive chapters on OBE related fear, and the mind split effect, in my book, Astral Dynamics, and others).

    I understand where Rawn is coming from with his cautions, and I hope we can agree to differ over this. However, I do not believe that the act of having a normal OBE is dangerous in the way suggested. Bardon's method in step 9 is to exteriorise body awareness and so trigger an OBE exit. This is similar to the method I call 'Point Shift'. This is not dangerous, but if you are following Bardon's system then I suggest you heed the warnings given in his book and 'stick with the program'.

    Rawn says that if you do not complete Bardon's steps 1 through 8 first, you are risking your life by using Bardon's projection methods. While I agree that Steps 1 through 8 should not be skipped if you are following Bardon's system, I do not believe that the actual OBE exit method is dangerous. This goes against a lifetime of experience with OBE, and studying and teaching OBE, which tells me that OBE is a natural part of life that everyone does without realizing whenever they sleep.

    There is more to OBE than meets the eye, much more than what is known today, and it has many levels and complexities. A great deal more exploration of OBE is needed before we could say we 'know' this phenomena well.

    OBE is natural and everyone does this every time they sleep. This is seldom remembered, but many do remember some experiences. Spontaneous remembered OBE is common. I've been having these since I was 4 years old. I know many people with a similar history.

    Bardon's work is excellent and I recommend his system for spiritual and magical training. However, completing Bardon's training steps in IIH (Initiation Into Hermetics) is a lifetimes work for most. This is hermetic development, mental and spiritual and psychic development, for the practice of hermetics and ritual magic. Many people struggle for years to complete step 4, and step 9 is beyond the reach of the majority.

    I see several general misconceptions after reading Rawn's critique of my work.

    Rawn states that my methods generate an artificial, unnatural astral body, the astral double, and that consciousness is then projected into this artificial body.

    This is *not* the case at all. The methods I teach are based on stimulating the same natural OBE mechanism that Bardon's teachings employ. This is also the same OBE mechanism employed by Robert Monroe, and other teachers of OBE.

    The exception here is probably the Golden Dawn's 'Body of Light' method, which sounds more like what Rawn is talking about, where as I understand that method, an exterior body is created and developed over time, a kind of thought form body, and then consciousness is shifted into this when OBE is desired. This is totally different from the methods I teach.

    There is only one natural OBE mechanism and all teachers and projectors utilize this, regardless of whether they realize this or not. There are various ways to go about this, but by large all OBE exit methods involve exteriorizing body awareness, the center of consciousness, in some way in othere, to trigger the natural projection mechanism.

    Bardon's work is excellent, but he did not understand the Mind Split Effect like I do. I discovered and studied the mind split effect, and after this it became obvious, if you study the enormous amount of data available on experiences of duality during OBE, that the physical body mind is never left completely empty. All OBE methods project a copy of consciousness exterior to the physical body, including Bardon's methods.

    To leave the physical body mind empty would be scientifically testable, if a person using this method were hooked up to brainwave sensors. Theoretically, such a person would flatline, and there would be no consciousness and hence no dream activity, etc; nothing beyond autonomous nervous system activity, etc. No tests like this have ever been done, not that I am aware of, so we must rely on experiential and anecdotal evidence until that time comes.

    In Bardon's time, and up until I discovered and published my work on the mind split effect, it was widely believed that astral projection involved the separation of the animating consciousness or soul of a person, leaving behind an empty shell or husk. Some went as far to call this 'soul travel'. My work shows this assumption to be understandable but inaccurate. In this respect, Bardon's work was well in line with popular magical thought of that time, including the 'empty body' assumption.

    I do not believe that Bardon's methods actually cause the animating consciousness or soul to leave the physical body and mind an empty shell. This goes against a lifetime of experience studying OBE. It takes a bit of a mind flip to wrap your head around the mind split effect and all it implies with regards to OBE, but it is supportable with a large amount of experiential evidence, and even modern scientific evidence for that matter, as per the below.

    For example, Michael Persinenger's work of inducing spiritual experiences, like a sensed presence and feelings of fear (sound familiar), when certain parts of the brain are exposed to certain frequencies of EM fields. This method appears to induce an astral projection in an awake but relaxed person, causing feelings of fear and of a sensed presence. If you compare this to the mind split effect as I have laid it out in my works, this 'artificially induced' OBE type experience begins to make sense. We are all dealing with the same mechanism and phenomena.

    http://www.geocities.com/satanicus_2/GodHelmet.html

    I think it is the close proximity of the projected double that causes a natural fear reaction in the physical body mind. Your own projected double will cause this, if it approaches too closely to your physical body mind, if you are awake when this happens.

    The projected double of another person will also cause this fear reaction, as will a spirit - the 'someone walked over my grave' feeling. So, it is theoretically possible that the energies involved with OBE are what cause the fear reaction, and not the fear of death per se.

    So little is known about OBE that, as far as I am concerned, everything is open for debate. This is a very 'scientifically' healthy approach. Dogma will get us nowhere.

    The energy work I teach, body awareness energy work, is simply a new and more effective approach to stimulating the energy body. This knowledge was also not available during Bardon's time. I discovered and developed these concepts and methods, and how to use body awareness as an OBE projection method.

    However, all energy work methods are similar in that they all stimulate the energy body in some way. Qi Gong, Tai Chi, Yoga, and Bardon's methods, etc, all stimulate the energy body in various ways. Without realizing it, body awareness is used by all of these traditions. Bardon's pore breathing, for example, uses a combination of body awareness and imagination to raise and absorb energy.

    All I have done is to describe the underlying principles better, of using focused body awareness and imagination to stimulate the energy body, and to teach this more effectively. This also applies to my work on OBE and other areas.

    Once my energy work concepts and methods are understood, the basics of which can be learned in a few minutes, energy work of any type becomes a lot easier and more effective, including Bardon's system.

    Nothing I have written here or in my books was or is intended to criticize or decry any tradition, system, or persons, I have mentioned here.

    The energy body stimulated with NEW body awareness work is the the same energy body employed by these other systems. The energy body does not change. It is the same for everyone, like the anatomy of the physical body.

    One main cause of misunderstanding relating to my work is simple dogma. Many people adhere so strongly to the work and methods of a teacher that the teacher's words become fact, the law, and anything beyond those words, or that appear to disagree, are deemed wrong. This is a part of a serious problem in our world today, particularly in the fields of the spiritual and metaphysical and magical, because if one respected teacher makes an error, this will be used as source material by those who come later, by writers and teachers that follow the original words of earlier teachers. In this way, error is propagated.

    Science offers a better way, in the meaning of 'scientific method' and 'research' where data is continually checked and rechecked for error. This is absolutely necessary. There is also 'experiential evidence' to consider, in such things as energy work and OBE that are not easily measurable by modern scientific means. However, what is phenomena today will be science tomorrow, including OBE and energy work.

    We need to learn from all of the earlier great thinkers and teachers, but we must not follow their words dogmatically. As said, everything is open for debate and testing and retesting.

    Robert Bruce - 2007

    - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - -- - - - -- - - -

    Rawn Clark's critique follows:

    Bardon's Step Nine "Astral Wandering" Vs. Robert Bruce's "Astral Projection": A Word of Warning
    © 2002

    WARNING: Robert's "astral projection" is *not* the same thing as Bardon's Step Nine astral wandering. If you attempt Bardon's techniques for real, under the assumption that they are the same techniques, you *will* risk damage to yourself.

    If you want to perform Robert's technique then definitely use Robert's excellent book, "Astral Dynamics". BUT, if you want to pursue Bardon's technique *without hurting yourself*, you *will* need to do the work of Steps One through Eight *first*.

    >> Could you please elaborate a little bit more on this please? I don't understand why it would be dangerous. <<

    As I understand Robert's technique, one creates and projects an energy body and then follows it with their mental body. In Bardon's "astral wandering" however, the solitary mental body is separated first and then the true astral body (not a created energy body) is drawn out of the physical body and inhabited by the mental body. This means that when following Bardon's method as it's laid out, the physical body is left empty of the causal agents that keep it a living thing (i.e., the astra-mental corpus). This is where the danger arises. To be able to perform the Bardonian technique you MUST be able to transfer the *will* and the *intention* that the physical body keep breathing and pumping blood, into the astra-mental body, and be able to *maintain* the splitting of focus that requires. If these responsibilities are not properly transferred and maintained, then any significant interruption (such as being physically touched) will break the connection of will and intent sufficiently to damage, if not kill, the empty physical shell.

    Bardon's technique stretches the "violet cord" that connects the mental body to the astra-physical body and then does the same to the "silver cord" that connects the astra-mental body to the physical body. Robert's technique stretches only the "violet cord" of the solitary mental body. This cord is VERY flexible and fairly difficult to injure. The "silver cord" however, is delicate and can be injured easily by repeatedly "snapping" back into the physical body. It requires the Elemental Equilibrium and a good deal of careful practice before Bardon's astral wandering can be practiced without risking damage to this cord.

    In my IIH Step Nine commentary I offer a less risky alternative to Bardon's sequential separation (it still requires that one have completed Step Eight). You can find that on pages 117 through 118 of my book or at: http://www.ABardonCompanion.com/IIH-Step9.html

    My best to you,
    Rawn Clark
    13 Sep 2002


    More on Bardon's Mental and Astral "Wandering"
    Vs. Robert Bruce's "Astral Projection"
    © 2002

    >> To the best of my knowledge, the prerequisite to attaining a solid or objective proficiency at mental wandering requires a lot of practice of gradual movement and observation of the immediate surroundings, and confirmation, before doing any serious "work", right? <<

    That is the immediate prerequisite, yes, but there are also 7 Steps of prerequisite before that! This labor of proving and testing one's accuracy of perception also transpires with the Step Nine astral wandering training.

    >> The reason why I mention this is because I believe our terminology is mixed up. The type of astral projection, or OBE, that is mentioned here, is essentially very similar to Lucid Dreams, except it occurs outside of the REM sleep cycle. Some people argue Lucid Dreams and OBEs are essentially the same thing, but induced differently. <<

    In terms of the bodies one occupies, a lucid dream is actually more akin to Bardon's astral wandering than to Robert's OBE. The reason I say this is because in a lucid dream and in Bardon's astral wandering, one occupies their own natural astral body, as opposed to Robert's OBE in which one artificially creates a non-native astral "body". However, in regard to the realm explored, you're right, Robert's OBE and a lucid dream share in the fact that primarily the astral substance adhering to the person's own psyche is explored.

    >> Anyway, when I was projecting, using Robert Bruce's techniques, the most striking feature of these OBEs would be the lack of sustained objective perception. In other words, when I project into my bedroom (and I've already described the sensations which you told was my true astral form), <<

    When I confirmed that for you, I did not understand Robert's technique as fully as I do presently and as a consequence I have to slightly modify what I told you regarding the sensations you relayed. The sensations you described were in line with an astral experience but they were not the experience of your own natural astral body. Robert's technique does not employ the person's own natural astral body and instead, involves the process of creating a non-native astral form. Your mental body does not connect with this foreign astral form to the same degree and in the same ways that it naturally does to your own natural astral body. This factor, *in combination with* the absence of those 8 Steps of prerequisite training, account for the lack of objectivity and reliability experienced with Robert's technique.

    >> The reason why I mention this was that Bardon stated quite clearly that practice was necessary to stabilise mental wanderings, and also implied the experience was rather "dull" (in the sense of perception being filtered) compared to a true astral wandering (perhaps a more pure, unfiltered perception relative to mental wandering?) <<

    ....snip...

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