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Thread: Has there ever been RTZ Scientific Study?

  1. #21
    Greatoutdoors Guest
    Unison, WarriorKing nailed it: the only way you are going to have the proof you are looking for (for now anyway) is to have it happen to you. I have had one involuntary full-blown OBE and it was incredible. And I have had other psychic stuff happen. All together they are more than enough to keep me interested, though I don't know if I will ever have voluntary control of such experiences.

    On the Astral Pulse forum a poster named The Voice of Silence is doing some really fascinating stuff -- and keeping good records of his (or her) results. I don't have the link right now, but to to the site if you want and just look up his posts for this month. That should get you to the thread I am thinking about.

    Also, if you can get Discover Magazine, they sometimes have articles about what hard-core scientific types are doing in the metaphysical arena. They have so far been able to induce OBE and ND experiences, as well as the Deja Vu feelings we have likely all had. This has been done, to the best of my memory, with magnetic pulses and electrical stimulation. And DON'T TRY THAT AT HOME!

    The basic abilities we are working with are very real -- no question, no doubt! Now, as to all the window-dressing that people are adding to it; welll, that remains to be seen.

  2. #22
    LoneCrow Guest
    Having something unusual happen to you shouldn't prove anything. Sure it may seem l ike a totally 100% conscious dream, it may be amazing but it doesn't prove anything.

    There has to be scientific proof. Videotape of a dog reacting wierd to something in thin air. Who knows but there are so many ways this could be prove, and guess what - it hasn't been proven.

    Thats the point. It hasn't been proven that what you all experience is nothing more than what is in your own head. Sure you may be travelling but its all in your own mind.

    I've been trying for a looong time now and read astral dynamics I've tried all sorts of techniques, I am pretty regular in my attempts, and still nothing unusual at all. Just that remote 3rd eye viewing, where I physically saw clear as day, with my eyes closed.

    I can get sleep paralysis every so often, but other than that, just some light feelings. The chakra thing is definitely real, but OBE's I really don't believe you actually leave your body.

    Sorry

  3. #23
    Crispassion Guest
    Its good to need proof. Certainly it is foolish to just believe other people's experiences and take it as a real part of your own life without trying to replicate it. That is all scientists do anyway - science has actually NEVER proved anything! All they do is say 'When I do so and so - this happens, do you AGREE?'. Then another scientist tries the same thing and goes either 'Yes! When I did so and so, this happened like you said - I AGREE' or 'No! When I did so and so, something else happened/nothing happened - I don't Agree'.

    In other words, scientists never prove anything, they only agree with each other about what they are each INDIVIDUALLY perceiving. That's the nature of life and perception. You are a single ALONE perceiver who either agrees with others about what you perceive ('sane') or do not agree at all with others ('insane'). This is the common way of labelling these two types of perceiver, anyway!

    The TRUTH is that the only thing that's real is what you are perceiving right now - whatever that is. What anyone else perceives is hoo hah. Sometimes it is useful to be able to corroborate with other perceivers that you see the same things, but you can never pretend to know anything for sure. It can never constitute 'proof'. The only science where true, purely logical, proof exists is Mathematics, and even that is debateable. A self perpetuating cycle of logic proving itself to be valid, but based all the same on assumptions of logical mathematical 'truth' which only exist in the mind!!! Specifically the human mind. Maths to a dog is 'When is my next bowl of biscuits?'.

    So go ahead and try to experience what everyone else has experienced, see if you agree, or not. When you finally leave your body behind, go outside the window of your bedroom to look at the playing card you stuck there face out at random, and REMEMBER it, come back and check if you're right. Is that proof? Is it proof if you do it 10 times and never get it wrong? I would say NO. But it will convince YOU that what you're perceiving is REAL to you, RELIABLE sense data, and somehow you are gaining a perceiver's perspective from outside your body. Have you REALLY left your body, or are you just PERCEIVING from outside your body? The two scenarios are identical. Who cares? Just do it!

    Cris

  4. #24
    pmlonline Guest
    Hello Astral Dynamics,

    What a nice place you have all created here.

    First I just wanted to give my 2 cents and then a little of my own experiences.

    I'm a huge believer in group consciousness. I believe all places are such a group consciousness. For example, the physical plane is one of the largest group consciousness. That means everything but spirit is not real. It is only real in the sense that the group as a whole is experiencing it. All places come and go, but your spirit is forever. There are countless locals in the Astral that are called dead realms. These are places where people used to live, but have since moved on. They are places that are no longer needed and where people no longer live. The colors eventually fade away and eventually everything dies and fades. The physical plane seems more stable because of how large this group consciousness is. On the other hand, even though this place on Earth may seem stable, we as a whole do chose our destiny.

    That being said, our society as a whole is not ready for global acceptance of the non-physical locals. That is speaking in global terms of everyone on Earth. Such proof would have great influence on people in totality. If the experiments were held by well known and respected scientists then such proof would in a way force most people on Earth to believe. It is for that reason that such global proof cannot exists, yet. That is why ♥♥♥♥♥'s money will always be safe until the 1000 year peace period is well on its way. That may be in the 2030's as the 1000 year peace period is expected to begin in the mind 2020's.

    So lets scale down the size of such an experiment that would prove obe's. Instead of global proof, what if a group of scientists did such experiments with a surely gifted projector. The results would depend on those who are present. It would be difficult for such a projector to demonstrate such things amongst a room full of doubting scientists. Additionally, the outcome of the tests would also be influenced on what the scientists intend to do with the information. If for example, the scientists were to keep the results secret, then it would be easier for the gifted projector to prove the projections are real.

    Now lets scale the experiments down to just a personal experiment. This is where many projectors may see real proof of the out of body experience. This is what I have always recommended to projectors. That is, one's own personal proof. Since such personal proof is not forcing or overlapping into the beliefs and lives of others then it becomes easier. To achieve such proof merely takes practice. Realistically, it probably takes about 5 years for the average projector. You want to project to the Etheric planes. So classically this would be called an Etheric projection. You want to focus on a location or person in this time line and in this time frame. The time frame is simply the current time that your physical body is in. So you wouldn't want to project 4 months into the future because things may look different. Additionally, there is no guarantee that you will continue on your present time line. Time lines are merely different creations. For example, in your present time line there may be a television in the north-east corner of your room, but in a nearby time line that television may be in the south-east corner. Focus of consciousness is the key.

    Early on in my college years I did my own experiments. For example, I would projected to someone's back yard, then wake up in the physical, and go to that location and look over the wall into their backyard. I can only tell you that it is real when you practice enough. So yes, I have my own personal proof. Some people can obtain their own personal proof immediately. For a lot of people, you will simply need to keep projecting and focusing. Until then, enjoy your obe's. They are all real, but in the case of most newbies, you are simply creating your own world.

    Peace,
    Paul

  5. #25
    Kalonek Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispassion
    Its good to need proof. Certainly it is foolish to just believe other people's experiences and take it as a real part of your own life without trying to replicate it. That is all scientists do anyway - science has actually NEVER proved anything! All they do is say 'When I do so and so - this happens, do you AGREE?'. Then another scientist tries the same thing and goes either 'Yes! When I did so and so, this happened like you said - I AGREE' or 'No! When I did so and so, something else happened/nothing happened - I don't Agree'.

    In other words, scientists never prove anything, they only agree with each other about what they are each INDIVIDUALLY perceiving. That's the nature of life and perception. You are a single ALONE perceiver who either agrees with others about what you perceive ('sane') or do not agree at all with others ('insane'). This is the common way of labelling these two types of perceiver, anyway!
    This is so true ( ), I've tried to explain this on every forum I have visited. It might be a solipsist way of thinking life, but it's the only valid in the flesh whatever one can say. And you explained this really well, thanks for giving me ideas for the next time I will need to write about this

    I only got one good personal proof, but it's all I need : during a brief projection I saw my ex-girlfriend sleeping in another room, facing the wall in the left corner of the sofa, with my jacket on her. Four details that I could verify immediately afterwards (and that I had absolutely no way to know) by going to this room without noise and opening the door to take a look.

  6. #26
    nparker Guest

    Re: Has there ever been RTZ Scientific Study?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneCrow
    Has there ever been any real honest to goodness study about OBE's on whether they are really real, or if they are just a dream state?

    Like have they ever had cameras or eeg's or anything hooked up to people while they try for obe's?

    Have they ever placed objects in other rooms etc for the person to come back and identify to prove they were actually out of their body?

    Has anyone ever affected the outside world, or given someone else who is awake a weird feeling or something while you were there.

    Is there any solid proof that this obe thing is notthing other than a lucid dream?

    Just wondering. I can't have an obe, been trying for months every night solid. Tried brainwave gens and all I get are lucid dreams or other effects.

    I want to know if this is really happening or if it is really just a dream state.
    Hi LoneCrow...

    I´ve done formal studies in Universitary level physics. Anyway, despite the general disagree of scienfic community about OBE related thematics (that might have influenced my belief system about OBE) I´m able of APing. I'll done some superficial studies about APing aka OBE subject. By ease complexity I advice reading at link:

    http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=1052

    where I show the procedure followed. Anyway I advice to take testimonial from mine as a first approach to subject. Many more and deeply studies are need.

    Actual science has, in my opinion, a great failure. It tries to explain phenomena as function of another well-known phenomena.

    In such a fashion of scientific method, during apparently well lead scientific researches, scientist tries of to detect brain area responsible of OBE. It seems they have had success, but, how do they discard the possibility that they hasn't detected but something like an biological (coarse stuff) echo related to activity of energy body (finer stuff). Such an echo, like a phantom mislead scientist from the right way of, first, to detect energy body. Then, characterize it. And, at last time, to identify what region are correlated to OBE activity.

    My best regards...
    Sincerely,
    Natalia Parker

  7. #27
    qbeac Guest
    Hello everybody:

    We are very much interested in the subject you are discussing in this thread: validation of the experiences. We have asked ourselves the same question many times: are OBEs real or only imaginary experiences? How could we find the difference for sure?

    In a Spanish Science forum (http://www.100cia.com) we have been discussing this subject in depth during several months by now (around 9 months), and we have designed a method that we believe it could work to do that. I mean it could help us to verify if these are real or imaginary experiences (a product of your imagination, dreams, hallucinations, etc.).

    We have named this method the “Agnostic Method” (AM), and it is based on the mathematical probabilities of guessing by chance different types of random numbers which have been calculated by professional mathematicians of the Math sub-forum.

    Since the original debate (see P.S.) is in Spanish, we have translated to English a small portion of it (some key elements) and have posted it in two English forums:

    Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
    Instructions of the Agnostic Method and Table 1:
    Probabilities of guessing by chance a random number (See Post #3, #4, pag. 1)
    http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

    Whats Your Proof? (this has been a very interesting and long debate; lots of information here):
    http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

    Another debate about the same subject in a Science Forum:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php ... 4f&t=49410

    We would be interested in knowing your opinion about the validity of this method: criticisms, possible conceptual errors you may find in it, possible improvements, etc. We will appreciate very much your comments!

    The method requires for an experienced projector to read “two normal words” taken at random from a dictionary and written with large letters in a regular piece of paper.

    Please, do you think you could that? Anybody around here feels capable of doing that?

    Thanks a lot. qbeac.

    P.S. This is the complete debate in Spanish, just in case anybody would like to check it out:

    - Post #301 al #305, pag. 31. Instructions of Agnostic Method and Table 1 (in Spanish):
    http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/...&page=31&pp=10
    - Math forum MIGUI. Calculations of Table 1 done by professional mathematicians:
    http://foro.migui.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1119
    In case anybody needs a free translating site: http://www.freetranslation.com/

  8. #28
    pmlonline Guest
    Hi qbeac,

    Early on in life I've done similar experiments and have my personal proof. While out of body I would fly to someone's backyard and remember the details. Then while back in my physical body I would go to that place and look over the tall wall into their backyard to verify my experience.

    I know some people who can do what you want, but what I have to say is probably not what you want to hear. Early on in life I searched for supernatural proof. One day an unusual person gave me a phone number to a private group of people. This private group was studying under a person some may call superhuman. He could vanish right before your eyes-- no cloud of smoke. He could levitate. He could read your mind even if you were in another room with your eyes closed. I personally knew this person and it was not an act or so-called magic tricks. He had what is called continuity of consciousness. Meaning that when he went to bed at night he would not lose consciousness, but would simply leave his body in full consciousness.

    There are a lot of these people on Earth, but such people learn early on about an important thing called karma. I cannot begin to comprehend the amount of negative karma gained if such a person were to prove to the world such supernatural phenomenon unless that world is ready for such proof. Luckily, such attempts to provide global proof will always fail until this world is ready.

    The science community is studying consciousness. One day they will learn that the physical world is not as they thought. It exists because of the group consciousness of countless Souls in our universe. On Earth, certain things will not happen until the world is ready. Unfortunately a lot of gifted people have met this force. Such gifted people may perform a strict test in front of a group of scientists, and fail. Yet, when such a person goes home in private, they are able to successfully perform the same tests time after time. The success of such experiments depends on what the scientists will do with the information and the outcome. If the experiments will affect certain people by means of hardcore proof then the experiments will fail. It is similar to your double slit experiments such as the single electron. When the electron is left alone, it displays the interference patterns, even though it is a single electron. When you *see* the electron as it traverses then the interference patterns instantly disappear.

    For these reasons, I have encourage people to achieve personal proof. It is far easier to find such personal proof just for yourself then for a small group of scientists to find personal proof. The odds of succeeding decrease as the group size increases. The best bet is to learn how to project and keep practicing. Also keep in mind that projection of consciousness is just the beginning. Just as a newborn baby must learn how to see, a newborn projector must also learn to correctly see and not affect his or her surroundings while out of body. So perhaps for the average person, it may take dozens of projections to achieve personal proof. If by chance you are a more spiritual developed personality, then you could very well succeed in every test.

    You should get far better results if you use pictures that contain emotions rather than numbers and words. The Astral body is the Emotional / Desire body. You could have hundreds of cards each containing a different picture such as a mountain scene, the Eiffel Tower, the N.Y. Twin Towers, Mount Rushmore, etc. Also, the projector should learn to go to the Etheric plane, which is part of the Physical realm. Also, the projector needs to learn how to focus so they can project to his or her present time line. The science community is beginning to learn about this in the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation)

    Hope this helps is some small way,
    Paul

  9. #29
    qbeac Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by pmlonline
    Hi qbeac,

    Early on in life I've done similar experiments and have my personal proof. While out of body I would fly to someone's backyard and remember the details. Then while back in my physical body I would go to that place and look over the tall wall into their backyard to verify my experience... (...)
    Hi pmlonline, thanks for your comments, but please, let me ask you something:

    Are you saying that if we find a projector who would be willing to provide scientific proof to the scientific community, he should not do it? So, would you advise a projector like that not to do the experiments?

    qbeac.

  10. #30
    pmlonline Guest
    IMHO it is not wise for a projector to prove it to certain people due to karmic reasons. Such people would include most scientists. I am saying that at present conditions it cannot happen on a global scale. Even if a group of scientists successfully confirmed the projection of consciousness in a professional manner in the laboratory and freely provided the world the data in a professional manner then for reasons beyond our comprehension & control the proof will not be globally accepted. That is, the science community in totality will ignore the data. As you may know, many scientific groups have already performed such convincing tests, but the science community as a whole ignores such tests and therefore the world in totality ignores the tests since the mainstream science community does not back up such data or claims. Robert Monroe was tested. I believe he discovered that the success rate strongly depended upon the people who were present. For example, it is very difficult to successfully perform such tests to disbelievers.

    One method that helps such tests succeed is to claim it is a magic trick. Claiming it is a trick (entertainment) does not have a drastic influence on the general public. For example, lets say that Barbara Walters was interviewing a magician. Lets say the magician asked her to go anyplace in the world, buy a deck of cards, and then call the magician on the phone. So Barbara Walters is at a place with her own deck of cards and calls the magician. The magician then asks Barbara to pick any card from the deck. Then the magician successfully tells Barbara what card she picked. This type of event is allowed because it is titled a "trick." It gets people thinking, but it is not an event that significantly applies enough force to globally change the beliefs of the world.

    This topic is one that many skeptics and debunkers in the science community thrive on. They demand proof! From their limited material perspective they have good reasons to want such proof. What usually aggravates these people is the fact that every time they dig for the details they find a reason to explain away the claim. Yet at the same time, there are scientifically minded people who may and have completely verify such supernatural events, but do nothing with the data. Don't you think it is ironic that the people who would prove it to the world are the ones who never find their proof, but the people who find the proof do nothing with it? Again, this is similar to the double slit experiment that shook the science community. A group of scientists could set up a sophisticated experiment. Lets say a man claims to bend metal with his mind. So the scientists film this man attempting to bend the metal and nothing happens. Then everyone goes home except one of the open-minded scientists who ask the man to try it again. This time, the metal bends and it is recorded on film, but the lone scientist keeps the data to himself. This can happen, but is unlikely.

    For now, I believe the best form of proof is personal proof. A scientist may perform and digitally record the most convincing proof imaginable, but for now such proof will remain as personal proof and not greatly affect the global consciousness. Another form of personal proof is by means of studying a collection of experiments from many sources. One source might include the Princeton Global Consciousness Project. http://noosphere.princeton.edu

    IMHO it is best to do the experiment yourself. For most people, learning to astral project is not difficult if they are determined and put forth the effort. There is karma associated even in performing such proof in front of one person. Give it all 10 to 20 years and it will become global proof.

    Paul

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