Using OBE to explore the nature of reality

[wstein]

Do you know, that as a matter of fact, you have no freedom of choice? You were born in place you haven't chosen. You have properties, DNA, that you haven't chosen. You was growing up in family you haven't chosen.

This is overly narrow.

Fortunately you are not your body. While perhaps your (forced) circumstances restrict you, they do not contain you. All of those things will pass.

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I am inferring that most (all?) of your OBEs have been to near places (RTZ, Astral, etc). I totally agree that the additional perspective gained from these is minimal at best.

Yes, its true that many spend a great deal of time and effort doing OBE and have nothing to show of it besides a lot of stories. It doesn't have to be that way.

Regarding the Kabbalah, of which I know very little, I want to make a suggestion regarding its use in OBE: specifically, the tree of life (10 circles, lots of lines). In addition to being aspects of the divine expression, they are actual 'locales' that can be visited. While I did not get there via the Kabbalah, I recognized the descriptions. I suggest that rather than reading about it, you can just go and experience it. Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?

From my experience visiting these sort of places does strip away many silly notions about the nature of reality. While perhaps it does not directly explain anything, it does provide a much better framework to answer the question of reality.

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I know that some amount of learning about the nature of reality is gained via OBE. The most common (though trivial) is to learn that we are not our bodies. The first time you see your body from the outside and realize that 'you' still exist causes a fundamental and profound change (same experience as an NDE). This is perhaps were some learn of the idea of a soul.

OBE can open the mind and other aspects of self which is essential in asking the question about the nature of reality. The very fact of being able to talk about the 'illusion', 'mutually constructed realities', 'our own world', 'outside the five senses', 'touching infinit[y]' can come from experiences gained via OBE.

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Sephir: I know you have found your tool that seems to be working for you at the moment. However, its not the answer for everyone. From my point of view you still have a long way to go to explore the fullness of the Kabbalah. To this I say, good, go with what works.

As far as this topic, seems to me you are speaking more about your limitations with using OBE as a tool than truly addressing the limitations of that tool.

[Moonchild]

Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?

Thank you CFT for so much more eloquently stating what I was trying to.

Actually it was wstein that articulated it- excellently, I agree with everything he said.-CF

{EDIT} How did I confuse that?! Thanks for pointing it out.

[Sephir]

Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?

Kabbalah is not talking about any places at all, including mentioned tree of life. Moreover, kabbalah has nothing common with misticism and mistics. I suppose I wrote already about the method of exporing reality using by kabbalists.

If kabbalah is interesting to you, I'll try to explain in different topic what it is.

[CFTraveler]

Sephir wrote:

If kabbalah is interesting to you, I'll try to explain in different topic what it is.

I'd love to read your take on it.

[wstein]

Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?

Kabbalah is not talking about any places at all, including mentioned tree of life. Moreover, kabbalah has nothing common with misticism and mistics. I suppose I wrote already about the method of exporing reality using by kabbalists.

If kabbalah is interesting to you, I'll try to explain in different topic what it is.

I was in no way suggesting that Kabbalists were using OBE nor currently practicing what modern mystics practice. I agree that Kabbalists I have met do not in any way see the circles in the tree of life as being 'locations'.

My point is that using the (mystical) OBE techniques, one can arrive at the same revelations about the nature of reality as by studying written material.

Clearly one method or the other is better for most people/beings. I would suggest that neither are particularly accessible for most.

Its clear from reading the posts on this forum that advanced OBE takes many years (decades) to master. From what I read and hear, good understanding of the Kabbalah can also take years (decades).

Sephir: I don't think you are making your point/position/question clearly to the rest of us. What I grasp is that you have been able to gain some insight into the nature or reality through access to the Kabbalah and have not been able through OBE. Perhaps you are simply stating this, or perhaps you are trying to suggest an alternative method. What is SOUNDS like is that you think OBE is a useless tool for probing the nature or reality. While this last alternative may be your experience, it conflicts with the experience of others (including me). The intent of my original question is to find out what limitations have made OBE less than effective in exploring the nature of reality.

Clearly you (and others) have not been able to use OBE as a tool, this is a given supported by much written material. Indicating you use the Kabalah instead is interesting, but has not been presented in a way to show the flaws in OBE (or improvements offered by the Kabalah, a different and perhaps interesting topic in itself).

[Sephir]

Thank you for replies. I've just written some long post in "misticism" section, titled "Find out about kabbalah". I guess that post is exactly what I'd like to say about OOBE as well, so I suggest you to find this post as my comment to your replies in this topic.

I was in no way suggesting that Kabbalists were using OBE nor currently practicing what modern mystics practice.

Oh, I'm sorry, I understood you incorrectly because of my "fresh" english. I should read more accurately.

My point is that using the (mystical) OBE techniques, one can arrive at the same revelations about the nature of reality as by studying written material.

My experience with OOBE is not enough rich to be talking about it as advanced traveller. However I've experienced about 40 OOBE and it's enough for me to compare it with perception gained by studying kabbalah. Please, read my just written topic I mentioned to understand me correctly.

Regards

[wstein]

In an attempt to bridge the terminology, I assume you are commenting on OBE as a form of perception in order to learn about the 'upper forces'.

{assuming the above}:
I feel that OBE techniques can be used to go to 'locations' where the upper forces are more directly 'visible'.

I have taken others OBE and what limits their experience is their ability to perceive in such unfamiliar constructs of 'reality'. Its clear to both of us that we are in the same 'location', but they can barely make anything out and I can identify objects and interact with the environment. In my experience those with better energy skills always perceive/sense more on OBE trips (not that they necessarily understand it). Perhaps the limitation of OBE to explore the nature of reality is actually a limitation of one's ability to perceive, and not a limitation of where OBE can take you.

[Moonchild]

Perhaps the limitation of OBE to explore the nature of reality is actually a limitation of one's ability to perceive, and not a limitation of where OBE can take you.

Absolutely agree.