Science, the new inquisition

[mreee]

Hello all,
just saw something on youtube, that tried to scientifically explain how OBE's work and how
it is perfectly explainable through science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCc63N4XAaM

The clip (a series of 2), entitled "Out of Body - New Data", tries in a corny way to "logically"
explain how obe's work. Through a series of tests they conclude that obes are a case of
the mind being unaware of the bodys place/orientation in the physical and will thus react to stimuli
of the "imagined" physical body.

This aparently explain the obe phenomenon and makes it fit into the mold of science, as something that
can be measured and tested for.

OBE's, in my experience can't be laied out as a simple "confusion of the mind" theory, there is much more to it
than can be measured by the tools of current science. I believe the clips are neglecting the importance of OBE's
and ridiculing the phenomenon by trying to fit it into "modern" science.
To me its just like the church of old, who tried to explain everything "unexplainable" by saying it was acts of god,
and things was ment to be that way cause god said so or it said so in the holy books etc.

Science is the god and church of our time and always tries to explain things according to laws of science.
And as the church did in a spiritual way, it tries to fit everything into a terribly "physical" view of the world and its mechanics.
People need to be told "its alright, it works like this, its been proven by a scientist through several studies".

In my opinion we need a paradigme shift, we have been through 2 paradigms that are both on different sides of the scale

* Science - Explaining everything through physical measuring, testing and experimentation.
* Religion - Explaining everything as "Because god made it so", "its the devils work", "posession" etc.

There must be a third way, a way that cant be measured or cant be dismissed as an act of god.
I dont know what this should be, but I think the 2 aproaches i mentioned are on opposite extremes and I think we
must move to a more "Proof by experience" kind of way. Where we put a lot more trust in peoples own experiences
and from that develop interest and try out the things ourselves. From our own experiences we can, as many already have
in books, courses, seminars, broaden the knowledge of the spiritual world.

Lets not have much faith in science or religion but start having faith in ourselves.

Just my thought about it all, might not be so clear as english is not my native tongue.
Anyway what do you think?

Mreee

[Korpo]

A simplified approach is applied here: If we can find an however improbable explanation that fits in our model, no matter how many evidence we have to skip for that, we will deny any other possibility out there.

This is an abuse of Occam's Razor that says the most simple explanation that works is enough. This is to prevent constructing elaborate theories about phenomena that are explainable by simpler means.

However, here they simply take one aspect of OBEing and mind travel and try to explain away the phenomenon, ignoring large bodies of evidence or witness reports. This is not science. This is mental laziness and acting on the fear that their personal belief system might be under attack. In order to be scientific they would actually have to supply evidence for their hypothesis. They can't.

In order to "explain away" OBE you have to explain away precognitive visions, intuitive knowledge, strong personal transformations, and a variety of other, observable phenomena occurring together with OBE. If one person can sense only the slightest bit of information which they should not be able to sense at all, in this very instant the whole model of the world these people have comes crashing down in bits.

That's why "skeptics" are so zealous. They feel like under attacks from ideas they violently resist because it prevents their worship of "reason". They will keep on constructing explanations that will save their closed-minded model of existence, as they are not interesting in finding the truly new, but only the slightly varied old. That is not science, either.

Oliver

[CFTraveler]

Mreee, I think the problem is much more complex than finding a third way that only takes experience into account, because experience is always mediated by belief in one or another paradigm- The thing is that science, as it's being applied (by some, not all) is not following the rules it has come up with, rules that if were taken into account wouldn't dismiss the OBE as a perceptual dysfunction, mainly because there are other factors, like outside validations, that are usually explained away as 'group hypnosis', or some such silly notion. The fact is, that if the scientific establishment, the so-called 'skeptics', followed their own rules OBE would be called a discipline, and even though couldn't be 'proven' (like most other disciplines), would at least be considered valid.
So the problem is not with the 'measuring and testing'- there's no problem with that- it's the lack of objectivity in a part of the 'scientific establishment' that starts off with a preconceived notion, before doing the measuring and testing- the preconceived notion that 'it's all a dysfunction on the brain'- and then looks for evidence to support that notion, and ignores the evidence that points the other way.

So I'd rather observe and experience, instead of 'believing' in one paradigm or another.

[mreee]

Yeah you are right CFTraveler,
I just got mad when i saw the clips and thought it was a bit hastey to dismiss obe as nothing but
the brain being confused.

I am very interested in technology myself, but I get angry when it seems that they prove
things that they already assumed from the start. Maybe some more experiments and more
test persons. Just cause the brain gets confused in those examples, it doesn't mean OBE's
are the same phenomenon.

Best regards
Mreee

[CFTraveler]

Sometimes I see reports that I often find 'amusing' because of how results are presented too. I have read news reports about some study that 'proves that x is true and y is not', and when you actually read the body of the report, the conclusions by the scientists that conducted the tests say almost the opposite, or make no conclusions of the sort. So media bias is also a factor. Oh well, too bad most people just read the first line and the headline. If they actually read the report itself, they wouldn't preconceive the notion in the first place.

[sleeper]

I hope i'm not detracting too much from this thread, but there's something that's been on my mind for some time.

The online spirituality forums (as well as real life) seem to be exploding with these science-spiritualist-philosophers who are all similar to the woman in that video. Perhaps it's just an honest attempt to integrate the modern life into something coherent, because let's face it: the modern world is pretty nonsensical. But it really seems like a misinformation campaign, like the major western news networks, that confuse and corral people's minds, rather than informing them.

I just find it extremely shortsighted and arrogant that these people claim such absurd results, then try to teach them. In other words, hitting a rubber glove with a hammer does not prove much...other than the human mind is capable of associating with the world in dynamic ways.

i've tried to talk to these people a number of times, and it usually became very confrontational. The people that report these kinds of findings have a large emotional investment in them, and they are not open to new possibilities. I find these kinds of ideas to be extremely harmful to humanity as a whole. the more i travel through time in this life, the more I want to vocally and confrontationally oppose these ideas and the people who posit them.

it is very unbalanced that these teams of scientists and psychologists are feeding this junk to the working class of people.

[Korpo]

An interesting observation.

Oliver

[pedigree]

Most science is 'objective' OBE's are 'subjective' so science is coming from the angle that will never prove OBE's.
Darwin concluded we are here through a random selection process along with survival of the fittest so science has taken the stance that it knows everything from this view. They say we are the victims of our genes.... BUT http://www.brucelipton.com/ has proved this wrong and very soon the science world will be turned around 180deg and only then will OBE's and the spiritual be seen for what they are to the general population and egg head.
"Dogma" is a swear word that everybody should use against science.

[CFTraveler]

Or against anyone who claims to have all the answers.