Teenagers and OBE.

[Beekeeper]

Here's what I believe commonly happens. I was one of those children, as were my siblings and sons, who became aware of projections as a child. I remember as a child discussing with my brother and sister our projection experiences in kiddy terms so that we called it "the shaky bed thing", "the heart pounding madly thing", "the loud noises thing." I usually got frightened by these experiences as did my brother and sister as we experienced the dweller phenomenon as well. I do remember spontaneous projections and lucid dreams that I found exhilarating. I didn't know the various experiences were connected, so I actively sought to repeat one and avoid the other.

I have two sons. My 14 year old recently went through a series of projection events where he experienced the loud noises, the vibrations and the dweller. Even though I explained what this was, he felt frightened by it and asked for ways he could avoid it. My 11 year old, however, has projected out of dreams. He had a lucid dream just a few days ago where he was walking to school aware that the sun was about to explode. Suddenly, he thought that that was just silly and realised he was dreaming. Because his experiences have been pleasant rather than frightening, he welcomes them.

I wonder if the causes of projection experiences in the young are largely biological. Perhaps it's to do with sleeping patterns and hormones. I recently had a former student of about 15 or 16 years of age contact me because, like my eldest son, she'd experienced the noises and actually projected. She was afraid she was going crazy. It may be that some people are better able to recall their projections because of their particular sleeping patterns.

It is a frightening experience, even when you know what it signifies. The fear itself may become a hinderance to future projections. I

[sdbl731]

Is it really wise to use words as "destroy", do you think? I mean, this is referring to parts of you. Your belief system might do a job of protecting you right now - keeping in check things with your reality filter that might be too much. I think we can remove pieces one at a time and have wonderful experiences, and grow, and do it again, but "destroy"? Sounds like a guy with an axe.

I think you make a good point here - maybe "destroy" was too strong a word. But what do you suggest instead? What I intend to do is clear out all of the "debris" floating around in there - I'm not too concerned with what that process is called, but with how to do that effectively. I welcome any and all suggestions on how to clean house in my belief system.

A belief systm in its purest form is quite malliable and shifts and changes. This allows for there to be a shifting view of reality
and a steadily correcting view of the way life is.

That makes sense - but is there a convenient way to change your belief system consciously, i.e. examining it and seeing what it's made up of, and then throwing out stuff you don't want or tweaking it?

Religon can be characterized by what IS wrong and what IS right while a belief
system only assumes and idea percieved from an individual view.

What about belief systems initially built around religion (i.e. being brought up with some extent of religious dogma) - I've pretty much shunned the religious, Christian aspect of my belief system, but I figure it's still in there. As I said above, I've shifted my world-view several times, and it's probably still in flux at the moment. I guess what I want is some catharsis for my belief system, to clear out what is irrelevant to me now.

I hoped this helped, if it doesn't you can ask me or ignore what ive said. It just feels better to have finally contributed to this
conversation about belief. Thank you.

Sorry I hijacked the thread... we're all glad you contributed!

Andy

[Hastor]

Religon can be characterized by what IS wrong and what IS right while a belief
system only assumes and idea percieved from an individual view.

What about belief systems initially built around religion (i.e. being brought up with some extent of religious dogma) - I've pretty much shunned the religious, Christian aspect of my belief system, but I figure it's still in there. As I said above, I've shifted my world-view several times, and it's probably still in flux at the moment. I guess what I want is some catharsis for my belief system, to clear out what is irrelevant to me now.

Belief systems built around a religous billpost are usually done so because said religon was a large part of their lives and came to represent a part of their reality. I know this will sound bleak, but the truth is that all the things you heard as a child will remain with you for the rest of your life and will continue to influence you. I wish it were possible to simply "will" this aspect out of the equation but at this point it comes down to simple influential psychology. What this means is that your upbringing will always be a part of you no matter what you try.

My answer for this, sadly, can only be related to a math problem.Think of your perception of an event as an equation involving variables, with variables being your ideas. Once you look at an event, calculate your perception the way you always do and then go back and replace the variables with differant ones.

The best advice, I think, is to keep an open mind and let knowledge flow through it daily. This stops your perception from becoming stanent. In my opinion, the best direct course of action is to meditate on what you know and start each day as if it is your first.

"We live only one real day, during which we recall false memories of living many more"-A Lesson is Learned but the Damage is Irreversible

Hope this helps.

[Hastor]

Here's what I believe commonly happens. I was one of those children, as were my siblings and sons, who became aware of projections as a child. I remember as a child discussing with my brother and sister our projection experiences in kiddy terms so that we called it "the shaky bed thing", "the heart pounding madly thing", "the loud noises thing." I usually got frightened by these experiences as did my brother and sister as we experienced the dweller phenomenon as well. I do remember spontaneous projections and lucid dreams that I found exhilarating. I didn't know the various experiences were connected, so I actively sought to repeat one and avoid the other.

I have two sons. My 14 year old recently went through a series of projection events where he experienced the loud noises, the vibrations and the dweller. Even though I explained what this was, he felt frightened by it and asked for ways he could avoid it. My 11 year old, however, has projected out of dreams. He had a lucid dream just a few days ago where he was walking to school aware that the sun was about to explode. Suddenly, he thought that that was just silly and realised he was dreaming. Because his experiences have been pleasant rather than frightening, he welcomes them.

I wonder if the causes of projection experiences in the young are largely biological. Perhaps it's to do with sleeping patterns and hormones. I recently had a former student of about 15 or 16 years of age contact me because, like my eldest son, she'd experienced the noises and actually projected. She was afraid she was going crazy. It may be that some people are better able to recall their projections because of their particular sleeping patterns.

From what you say it sounds like there might be psychologiacl hinderances placed upon those who project with negative results as a child. If this is true then it would be logical to assume that, like many things in life, a traumatic event during a biologically developmental satge can have a negative affect on any such events latter on in life. This would explain a natural hesitance when it comes to projection.

Thank you very much for your input.

[ButterflyWoman]

On the subject of beliefs, "I don't need a belief system" is a belief. It's almost certainly impossible, in material and human terms, to have NO beliefs. You almost certainly believe that the earth rotates, and that it orbits the sun. You almost certainly believe that if you drop something, it will fall. These are beliefs. I know people will say they're "facts", but if you can sincerely believe, for example, that gravity has no effect on you, you can walk on water...

Beliefs are just thoughts that we think over and over until they become persistent habit. You can change them, for sure, and break those habitual thinking patterns, but try going through life without thinking, or try not thinking the same thoughts more than once. Get my drift? We all have beliefs, but we can choose them, and make them things that work for us rather than hindering us.

Note that I am NOT talking about religious indoctrination (though those kinds of beliefs can certainly be something that needs overhaul) or political leanings or philosophy. I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of everyday life in the material world, when the interface for this world is a human mind which is in the habit of thinking.

Think what you want, believe what you want, definitely. But think nothing? Believe nothing? I think not...

[sdbl731]

but is there even such thing as "no belief system"?

On the subject of beliefs, "I don't need a belief system" is a belief. It's almost certainly impossible, in material and human terms, to have NO beliefs.

Looks like we're on the same page but seriously, you did a much better job of explaining it...

Beliefs are just thoughts that we think over and over until they become persistent habit. You can change them, for sure, and break those habitual thinking patterns, but try going through life without thinking, or try not thinking the same thoughts more than once. Get my drift? We all have beliefs, but we can choose them, and make them things that work for us rather than hindering us.

I 100% agree with you on this - not believing in anything IS believing; funny how that all works, eh?

Cheers,
Andy

[Jaco]

Having or not having a belief system is not the same as needing to have or not to have a belief system.

[sdbl731]

Having or not having a belief system is not the same as needing to have or not to have a belief system.

Well, that depends. If it is impossible to not have a belief system, then perhaps there is a need to have one, whether the need is acknowledged or not.

Andy

[Jaco]

Well, that depends. If it is impossible to not have a belief system, then perhaps there is a need to have one, whether the need is acknowledged or not.

No, not really

[sdbl731]

Here is the initial assumption - everyone has some sort of belief system, whether it consists of a complex framework of ideas and experiences or just a couple of methods of perception used to approach the world. I realize that the word "system" suggests something more than just a few basic assumptions / ways of looking at things, but it doesn't have to if you don't want it to.

OK, so, if everyone has a belief system, no matter how complicated or rudimentary, then an interesting question that arises is "why?"

the best way to describe a belief system is as a view of reality. Unfortunatly, no matter how hard
we try, the pure and simple truth is that, as a human being, it is impossible to fully concieve the "truth"
that is reality. The coping mechanism for this is the belief system.

This nifty little invention allows billions of people to understand other's view on life and take into account each other's
point of view.

If what Hastor said is true (and I think it is true and very perceptive), then there is a fundamental need for us as humans to have the "coping mechanism" that we call a "belief system". This isn't a "need" in the sense of a conscious want - this is a need that we may or may not be aware of.

This need is distinct from what we think we "need" to have in our belief systems - I believe this is the point we're getting hung up on. When you (impersonal "you" ) consciously think "I need a belief system that is in good working order", it's not as if you're suddenly trying to conjure up a belief system out of nothing - you're just becoming aware of / attuned to the fact that you have a belief system working in the background, influencing your perception of the world. Thus, any desire to change beliefs affects / targets the belief system that is already there. The magnitude and direction of the changes you want to make, coupled with the necessary effort to make these changes "sink in" to your subconscious, will affect the extent to which your belief system actually undergoes change.

Of course, I'm discussing this from a hypothetical perspective, since I have little to no experience actually "going in" and changing stuff around in my belief system. I have, however, reached the point that I'm aware of my belief system as an entity (if not of what beliefs it actually consists of).

Andy