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Thread: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

  1. #11
    Berserk Guest

    Re: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

    I used to travel OBE through my self-made self-hypnosis tape. In fact, I succeeded on the first attempt. The experience was compellingly vivid: I floated up from my body,bounced off the ceiling, and gazed down at my sleeping body tangled up in my twisted blankets. I draped my astral body over my physical body, but had trouble merging my astral fingers with their physical counterparts. This failure induced fear that woke me up. Later, I visited a deceased loved one who had committed suicide and she passionately reassured me that I need not worry and that she was making progress. The powerful emotions released by our reunion were among the the most potent I've ever experienced.

    Then I discovered Dr. Stephen LaBerge and learned how to have lucid dreams. These dreams were just as vivid as my OBEs. During the dream, I knew I was "back there" sleeping and that I had limited control of my dream surroundings. All five of my senses were totally engaged in my LDs. Later, I listened to interviews with various LD experts and they shared their OBE adventures. They all added that theirs were JUST LDs and nothing more. MY OBEs were not experiences of alternalte planes and had no relevance to the question of post-mortem surival. Reluctantly, I concluded that I had been duped, victimized by my own wishful thinking. I quickly concluded that I had been misled by gullible astral fundamentalists who needed to believe that their OBEs were real and found the hard work of verification tests odious and threatening.

    I was particulary appalled by their naive reaction to La Berge's LD in which he lit a candle by his bedstand, went OBE, blew out the candle and explored the duplicate of his house, and then reentered his body only to find that the candle had burned to its base. OBE devotees tried to wriggle out of the obvious implication by insisting that astral matter is different and is not easily subject to such verification tests. They are just whisling past the grave yard that unearths the fatal flaw in their claims. Without verification, no knowledge can be claimed! A cognitive distinction between LDs and OBEs must be established experimentally; it can't very by postulated on the basis of subjective experience.

    Don

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    Re: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Templar
    these days, i do enjoy challenging folk's concepts of reality.
    Careful with that. There's nothing people hate more than having their concept of reality messed with. It can get ugly, and even downright violent.
    May the light surround you, may you be blessed. May the light surround us, may we be blessed. May love and light surround us all, and may we all be healed and blessed. And so it is, and so it shall be, now and ever after.

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    Re: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk
    I was particulary appalled by their naive reaction to La Berge's LD in which he lit a candle by his bedstand, went OBE, blew out the candle and explored the duplicate of his house, and then reentered his body only to find that the candle had burned to its base. OBE devotees tried to wriggle out of the obvious implication by insisting that astral matter is different and is not easily subject to such verification tests. They are just whisling past the grave yard that unearths the fatal flaw in their claims. Without verification, no knowledge can be claimed! A cognitive distinction between LDs and OBEs must be established experimentally; it can't very by postulated on the basis of subjective experience.

    Don
    I agree completely. What I find strange, though, is the intrinsic expirimental nature of OBEs. The entire "real time zone" is supposed to be the real world and if so then any unknown of the real world could be varified during OBE and then checked after awakening. In simple terms, you could ask your friend to lay 5 random cards in a disclosed location within his or her house. During OBE you should theorectically be able to simply "float" over to the friend's house, look at the five cards, and then "float" back to your body. Even with the supposed difficulty of what Robert Bruce calls Shadow Memories, remembering 5 cards should be remarkably simple as compared to remembering a complex Astral experiance. If you are able to remember all cards correctly then there should be ample reason to believe in Astral Projection, but if you miss them all or even get one wrong then there is proof that the experiance was not an actual case of Astral Projection. Even though it sounds strict, the experiment is intentionally designed to sacrifice legitimacy by leaving so low a variable in exchange for allowing ease in attempt.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die.

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    Re: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hastor
    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk
    I was particulary appalled by their naive reaction to La Berge's LD in which he lit a candle by his bedstand, went OBE, blew out the candle and explored the duplicate of his house, and then reentered his body only to find that the candle had burned to its base. OBE devotees tried to wriggle out of the obvious implication by insisting that astral matter is different and is not easily subject to such verification tests. They are just whisling past the grave yard that unearths the fatal flaw in their claims. Without verification, no knowledge can be claimed! A cognitive distinction between LDs and OBEs must be established experimentally; it can't very by postulated on the basis of subjective experience.

    Don
    I agree completely.
    Although I agree that OBEs are subjective and not altogether verifiable by scientific standards, I disagree with the assumptions that are being given here as if they were fact.
    First of all, the Real Time Zone is not the real world- it is as the World looks to a subtle body that is interacting and experiencing it. This is very important and at the heart of the problem with this reasoning. It is extremely unlikely for a subtle body to affect the RTZ; it's as if radar were able to blow off a candle or turn cards. Radar is subtle, it can interact for detection purposes, which is why I use it as an analogy for such. That's how we perceive- it doesn't mean we can do anything else.
    What I find strange, though, is the intrinsic expirimental nature of OBEs. The entire "real time zone" is supposed to be the real world
    No, it's not. Of course, you can ignore any literature that asserts the difference and just point to the literature that claims it to be just that, but that just points to your motivation.

    and if so then any unknown of the real world could be varified during OBE and then checked after awakening.
    Not "any" unknown, since the RTZ is not the real world, and it is not completely objective.

    In simple terms, you could ask your friend to lay 5 random cards in a disclosed location within his or her house. During OBE you should theorectically be able to simply "float" over to the friend's house, look at the five cards, and then "float" back to your body. Even with the supposed difficulty of what Robert Bruce calls Shadow Memories, remembering 5 cards should be remarkably simple as compared to remembering a complex Astral experiance. If you are able to remember all cards correctly then there should be ample reason to believe in Astral Projection, but if you miss them all or even get one wrong then there is proof that the experiance was not an actual case of Astral Projection.
    Once again, you don't seem to grasp that an Astral Projection isn't objective, it's primarily interaction to more abstract and subtle environments, that are usually created by the colllective unconscious- that is, a collective dream environment, as opposed to a subjective dream environment. And the only way to verify those is to compare with other projectors' experiences, which is one of the reasons forums such as these exist.
    https://linktr.ee/CoralieCFTraveler
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    "Stop acting as if life is a rehearsal" Dr. Wayne Dyer.

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    Re: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

    Robert Bruce in his book, Astral Dynamics published in 1999, page 28-
    "A simple way of proving that real-time projection is an objective rather than a purely subjective experiance is with a deck of cards. Shuffle the deck and, without looking, lay one card face up on top of a wardrobe, cabinet or somewhere high up in your own home, preferably at least twenty feet (six metres) away from where your physical body will be. Or tape the card to a window, facing outward, without looking at it. Do not use more than one card until you have some real success with this test.

    Do not try to guess the card. Guesswork – even simply wondering what the card is – can easily cause subconscious interference (reality fluctuations), which can make a genuine real-time observation extremely difficult. If, for example, you try to guess or intuit what the card is, you may see the card you have guessed, instead of seeing the actual card. This can undermine the real-time observation with a small reality fluctuation and make the observation inaccurate.

    At the very start of the projection, immediately move to where the card is and look at it. Glance at it only briefly, and remember it. When you are sure you can remember the card, re-enter your body, write down the card you saw, and then go check.

    To give this test a fair go, keep it very short and do not try to do anything more during the projection. When you approach your physical body to re-enter it, hold the memory of this card firmly in mind and, quite literally, shout it out loud as you are re-entering, e.g. ‘The Queen of Hearts! The Queen of Hearts!” This will maximise your chances of remembering not only the projection, but also the face of the card you saw during the test. Please follow this procedure to the letter, or you may lose the memory not only of the card, but of the entire projection.”
    All I did to this experiment clearly stated by Robert Bruce himself is I changed the number of cards and the person holding them only so that I might increase the validity of the experiment by adding a greater amount of variables and including an assistant. Unless Robert Bruce has come forward and stated otherwise since the date that he published the book then I am lead to believe that he sees the Real-Time Zone as
    overlaying and permeating the entire physical universe and containing a perfect reflection of reality within it.
    This is another quote from Robert Bruce in the same book as mentioned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by CFTraveler
    No, it's not. Of course, you can ignore any literature that asserts the difference and just point to the literature that claims it to be just that, but that just points to your motivation.
    That statement is a bit of a Catch-22 in that any evidence I point to you could dismiss as merely an attempt to verif my claims while you consciously undermine the evidence I have. In essense, I could give you books of evidence that verify my claims, but as long as there is an inkling of evidence that refutes it then I would be put as wrong based simply on the existance of an opposition. I chose the evidence given by Robert Bruce due to his extensive experiances in the field of Astral research, and because of such an extensive expertise in the field I hold that his ideas can if not, in the case that much of his work forms the bedrock of the ideas in this forum, must be held as the definitive source of understanding of the area in question.

    Please forgive my ignorance if the understanding of the Real Time Zone has changed since Robert Bruce published the book from which I quote, but otherwise I see no reason to recognize anything you state as "subjective" about Real Time projections.

    Thank you,
    Hastor
    That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die.

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    Re: Lost Faith... Just LD's ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hastor

    All I did to this experiment clearly stated by Robert Bruce himself is I changed the number of cards and the person holding them only so that I might increase the validity of the experiment by adding a greater amount of variables and including an assistant. Unless Robert Bruce has come forward and stated otherwise since the date that he published the book then I am lead to believe that he sees the Real-Time Zone as
    overlaying and permeating the entire physical universe and containing a perfect reflection of reality within it.
    This is another quote from Robert Bruce in the same book as mentioned above.
    But notice how he says 'reflection'- this is an indication that the RTZ is not necessarily what you see, all the time, and changeable. I'll clarify below.
    That statement is a bit of a Catch-22 in that any evidence I point to you could dismiss as merely an attempt to verif my claims while you consciously undermine the evidence I have. In essense, I could give you books of evidence that verify my claims, but as long as there is an inkling of evidence that refutes it then I would be put as wrong based simply on the existance of an opposition.
    I have no interest in dismissing any claims you make, because my intent is not to 'debunk' your experiences- my intention is to simply say that the way science tests theories can not be applied 100% of the time, and thus can't be proven from a scientific standpoint. Does it mean it's not valid? Not at all, simply that the standards that science puts on experimental data cannot apply to mind experiments, because of the mind content. This is why psychiatry is not considered a science- not because it doesn't work or cannot be verified, but because it's all about the mind. And when it comes to extra-sensory perception, no matter how right you are most of the time, someone will go straight to the times when someone fails, and claim to invalidate it.
    I chose the evidence given by Robert Bruce due to his extensive experiances in the field of Astral research, and because of such an extensive expertise in the field I hold that his ideas can if not, in the case that much of his work forms the bedrock of the ideas in this forum, must be held as the definitive source of understanding of the area in question.
    Robert is a very open minded man, is all I'm going to say.

    Please forgive my ignorance if the understanding of the Real Time Zone has changed since Robert Bruce published the book from which I quote, but otherwise I see no reason to recognize anything you state as "subjective" about Real Time projections.
    Sorry if I sounded provocative, it wasn't my intention- however, the understanding of the RTZ is a bit more fluid than what I read in your previous post. Let me illustrate:
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert
    The astral is the closest dimension to the physical. It overlays and permeates the world like a huge mind net, catching and holding all thought. Its contents are created by the collective consciousness of the world mind. It contains all the thoughts, memories, fantasies, and dreams of every living thing in the world. In it, the laws of sympathetic attraction, or like attracts like, causes this ocean of mind stuff to strata and settle into layers or pools. These pools of thought are more commonly called astral planes, astral worlds, astral sub planes or astral realms.
    ...
    The astral dimension is composed of astral matter and is aptly described as mind stuff. It is extremely sensitive to thought and can be moulded into any shape or form. These creations can be so perfect as to be indistinguishable from reality.

    The best way to explain this, mind stuff, is to draw a comparison between astral matter and unexposed, high speed photographic film. When this film is exposed to light, focused by the cameras lens, a perfect image of reality is instantly burnt into the film by the chemical reaction of the film to light. When astral matter is exposed to thought, focused by the lens of the mind, a perfect image of reality is instantly formed out of astral mind stuff by the reaction of astral matter to thought.
    Robert Bruce
    http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials ... art-1.html

    So you see, even though the astral is the closest thing to physical reality, and the RTZ is the closest thing to it in the astral, it is still the perception of subtle energy and subject to subconscious information. This is why the above experiment you quoted was very clear in that the projection had to be short and devoid of expectation- because the second you thought anything at all, it could affect the outcome, and that is a no-no, and subjective.

    And then, in describing the Alice In Wonderland effect (which occurs in the RTZ) he writes:
    Once the subconscious mind starts creating like this it continues to do so at a geometric rate.
    Which is the point I was making.

    http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials ... t-1.html#6

    So you see, what I was trying to get across is that the standards of objective science cannot be used to 'prove' AP to be real or imagine- a different protocol must be agreed upon than the standard to decide whether the outcome is more than chance, or a statistical anomaly. And considering the way Physics is developing, even that has to be reconsidered.



    Thank you,
    Hastor
    No; thank you,
    CF.
    https://linktr.ee/CoralieCFTraveler
    Rules:http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/faq.php
    "Stop acting as if life is a rehearsal" Dr. Wayne Dyer.

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