personal gain?

[crollbc]

hey everybody,
im 17 and have recently become very interested in astral projection but i have a couple of questions i havent found on any site ive been to about projection.

1. if astral/etheric/real time, or whatever the projection is where you are said to be on the physical plane is real, how is it that that kind of thing hasnt been utilized for personal gain? what is to stop the government using it to spy on other countries? or people perving on one another? sorry if im a little misguided about the topic.

2. if i were to hide an item somewhere in my house (i.e ruler), would somebody who was projecting be able to see the ruler and describe it to me the next day, or is astral projection more a representation of subcounscious mind as oppose to physical occurrences. I'm a little confused because i have seen people talking about "confirmations" or "proofs" or whatever that would prove their projections are real? is this true?

thanks in advance for answering!

[CFTraveler]

hey everybody,

Hey crollbc.

im 17 and have recently become very interested in astral projection but i have a couple of questions i havent found on any site ive been to about projection.

1. if astral/etheric/real time, or whatever the projection is where you are said to be on the physical plane is real, how is it that that kind of thing hasnt been utilized for personal gain?

First of all, the Real Time Zone is the area in the astral plane that most resembles 'real time', or physically manifested reality. It is not however, the real thing, and I'm defining material reality as that which is perceived to be independent of the body. The ramifications or truth of that is another thread entirely. As to personal gain, the projector who suddenly finds him/herself out of body is usually so surprised that personal gain is the furthest thing from your mind. The seasoned projector however, is another story.

what is to stop the government using it to spy on other countries? or people perving on one another? sorry if im a little misguided about the topic.

Belief. Most politicians don't believe in anything but material gain or power, so something as iffy as AP is not that easily controlled. So why spend their energy in something that isn't 'sure' to bring results, when they have things like war, money and marketing to accomplish their goals?

2. if i were to hide an item somewhere in my house (i.e ruler), would somebody who was projecting be able to see the ruler and describe it to me the next day, or is astral projection more a representation of subcounscious mind as oppose to physical occurrences.

It's both and that's where the 'iffiness' comes in. Your subconscious stores memories. Your conscious discerns between fivesensory perception, memory and then stores it in the subconscious. Your superconscious receives information from all perception (not just fivesensory) and your subconscious gets to store all of it. When you project, if it's conscious, your energy body brings the information to your subconscious and it gets downloaded into your brain, so your conscious mind can perceive it. The problem is that your subconscious doesn't know the difference between your astral perception and your physical perception, and what your conscious mind processes is a mixture of both. So what you get is what you saw, based on what you permit yourself to understand/process. So you can see the ruler where your friend put it, but you can interpret it as something else (a stick, a snake, or something more abstract, like the picture of a president ("a ruler"). Hence, your memory of what you saw can have both elements of what is there and what you decide/expect/wish/interpret is there.

I'm a little confused because i have seen people talking about "confirmations" or "proofs" or whatever that would prove their projections are real? is this true?

Yes, it does happen. In the thirty-odd years (don't make me calculate it) I've been projecting, I've had three or four confirmations that were undoubtable to me. Not that impressive, is it?

thanks in advance for answering!

You're welcome.

[Tempestinateapot]

what is to stop the government using it to spy on other countries?

Actually, they have. Skip Atwater was made famous by his experiences in the U.S.'s "Star Gate" remote viewing program.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/624.html

http://www.hrvg.org/newsletter/2001-02/feature.html

BTW, Skip is still alive and does presentations at the Monroe Institute in Virginia if you want to meet him.

[Blue Mage]

1. if astral/etheric/real time, or whatever the projection is where you are said to be on the physical plane is real, how is it that that kind of thing hasnt been utilized for personal gain? what is to stop the government using it to spy on other countries? or people perving on one another? sorry if im a little misguided about the topic.

2. if i were to hide an item somewhere in my house (i.e ruler), would somebody who was projecting be able to see the ruler and describe it to me the next day, or is astral projection more a representation of subcounscious mind as oppose to physical occurrences. I'm a little confused because i have seen people talking about "confirmations" or "proofs" or whatever that would prove their projections are real? is this true?

1) What makes you think it hasn't been utilized for personal gain? This is real life, not a tv show like "Charmed", people can and do use their natural abilities for whatever they want, no rules are protecting what people assume exist and need for what is considered a normal life, like privacy. I remember talking to someone who claimed he could read people's minds, I asked if him if he thought that reading people's minds was an invasion of privacy, he simply said that privacy is just an illusion. If things like ghosts and mindreaders exist, that is a given. And don't assume that you know everything the government does and does not do. There is so much knowledge in the world that you will never read in a newspaper or learn in school.

2) It is most certainly true, in my experience. I'm total n00b but the few times I have had out of body experiences I remember, I saw things that turned out to be true. The first time, I purposely left a playing card, without looking at it, face up on my dresser across the room. I just intended to see that card, but I also ended up seeing the cards in the rest of the deck that I had left next to it. So I made an effort to remember the top card in the deck along with the card I left next to it. So I shot for getting a 1 in 52 thing right, but instead I got a 1 in 52*51 = 2652 thing right instead. I found that pretty convincing, needless to say. Robert Bruce, in one of his books or something claims to have verified things out of body too, along with many other writers.

One problem is that sometimes while out-of-body things aren't quite as they would appear in real life. Especially as the experience continues, what is seen starts straying from what is real more and more, or I think that's what I read.

People doing remote viewing, or going out of body to view things do get things wrong sometimes, but taken as a whole I would consider that to be proof that something real is going on. Suppose someone tries an experiment mulitple times where they have a 10% chance of getting a right answer. Even if they are only right 11% of the time, any percentage above 10% maintained for a high enough number of tries taken together shows that the right answers coming by chance is statiscially impossible.

[CEP2plet]

It's hard to talk ethics in the astral world when we have yet to get ethics up-to-date in the physical world. Technology, science, and math are all developing really fast, but ethics and politics are developing at a slower pace. The only way to really ethically analyze something is if the field of ethics were approached in a abstract manner. To do that would require a rethinking about what is right and what is wrong in a way that does not depend on making mistakes to learn or rooting it in prejudice of any kind.

Right and wrong are like 1s and 0s. It's a binary relation. So, it is, in terms of its binary relation, like true and false. True and false, although, is in the domain of logic, but it's still the same binary relation in both logic and ethics. There's also something else that has the binary relation...

Computers. 1s and 0s are the assembly, or machine, language of all computer software. It is the only low-level programming language to learn if you want to type out lines of 0s and 1s in order to make an application (it's a lot more complicated than that, I know, but I'm phrasing it for this topic; there also exists a mid-level language version of assembly called HLA; High-Level Assembly). I only brought up computers to show that the binary relation in ethics is not unique. It's quite common.
Anyway...

Ethics, like many other fields that feature the binary relation (subatomic physics), should be an abstract field of study, not one attached to religion, special interest groups, adversarial legal systems, or competitve industries. Until we can get that understood, ethics will continue to be sort of a cold field in terms of progress.

...

The ability to remote-view I have done once. It was also the only attempt I ever made. I haven't tried since then, but when I did it that one time, I was successful by 1/2 (%50). I shuffled a deck of cards, and I made sure I couldn't see the bottom of the deck because if I saw the bottom of the deck, I would have seen one card out of 52 that I knew wasn't the top card. The top card was the one I was going to look at in the RTZ after I projected. I set the deck two rooms away from me, and I went to my bed, fell asleep, and projected. I was somewhat blind in the RTZ, and I stumbled my way to the room with the deck of cards. I picked up the top card and saw all kinds of cards, of all suites, and I didn't know which one to pick. So, I looked at the shifting suites and numbers like a lottery machine; I watched for whichever one repeated over and over again in the random shuffle of images. In other words, I was looking for a pattern, particularly a pattern with the name "top card of the deck" (ha ha ha). I saw the number 10 pop up a lot, the color red, and the suite of diamonds were also consistently appearing. I made the conclusion of the "10 of diamonds" and I returned to my body. As soon as I got up from my bed, I went to check the cards...

The top card wasn't "10 of diamonds"; it was a joker. When I saw it was a joker, everything made sense to me of the random, lottery-machine-like phenomena I saw in RTZ. The joker is always considered the "wild card" in some card games. That's why it was random. It was a "wild card". I learned that the RTZ is affected by not one's perception, but one's systems of thinking. In order to get the top card if the top card is a joker, you had to of reviewed what you thought of the cards that you were going to look at in RTZ before you got in RTZ.

Well, I looked at the second to the top card, and it was a "10 of diamonds". I wasn't happy or surprised that I got it correct. I was expecting that because I knew it was next to the top. I merely saw through the "wild card" and saw the "10 of diamonds" underneath it. I was looking for a "regular card", not a "wild card", and that's exactly what I got. Absolutely amazing, really, but still, it's to be expected.

[star]

what is to stop the government using it to spy on other countries?

Actually, they have. Skip Atwater was made famous by his experiences in the U.S.'s "Star Gate" remote viewing program.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/624.html

http://www.hrvg.org/newsletter/2001-02/feature.html

BTW, Skip is still alive and does presentations at the Monroe Institute in Virginia if you want to meet him.

I'm stationed in VA, I should go find this dude.

[Blue Mage]

CEP2Plet:

Hey, I think what happened when you were trying to view the card while OBEing was just you were seeing all the cards at once since they were together in the deck. The time I successfully did my experiment the cards that were in the deck were all a big jumble, but then I just tried to focus and for split second I was able to focus on just the top one. I think when trying to view card while out of body it is important to keep the card separate from the others. In my very limited experience while out-of-body it is very easy to see right through thin things.

Like there was one other time when I had an OBE where I was a little confused. Somehow I had the feeling I was looking at my bed from close up though. Soon I could see this floral pattern. I figured it was just something random because I did not recognize the pattern at all. I woke up and wrote down my experience and went about my day. Later I had an idea, I thought maybe the pattern was on an undersheet. Looked later and found that it was the pattern directly on the mattress. Not sure if I had ever seen the bare mattress before.

[CEP2plet]

Hey, I think what happened when you were trying to view the card while OBEing was just you were seeing all the cards at once since they were together in the deck.

That is EXACTLY what I saw. Wow, so thin things have that effect, eh? Iiiiiinterestinnnngg!!