Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies.

[SP3]

"Why transform into nothingness?"

I don't believe in that, I believe Nirvana is oneness not nothingness...but even that I don't really believe is right.

I believe in perfection and following in the footsteps of a true master towards perfection. I want to be the Image God Intended.

In a world filled with so many problems you can appreciate how much help it needs. Being aware of ways to help others, helps the world evolve in a positive direction instead of towards self destruction were there is no future.

Make it a routine to practice selfless acts and find ways to improve in those directions, and use your gifts to help those around you and those far away from you.

I believe that following the Buddhist practice of meditation of the heart combined with Christ’s teachings is the best combination. Both believe in selflessness, love and compassion for all things. It develops a more intimate relationship with god as well. Listen to your dreams because from time to time God will pop in and teach you something. Don't just talk the talk, but walk the walk...and lead by example.

Check out the 7 heavenly Virtues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virt ... ly_virtues

[CFTraveler]

I'd like to chime in, if y'all will allow me.
Hey, SP3, we double posted.

But I still don't understand the motivation. What drives you forward? Why transform into nothingness?

It's not that you transform into nothingness, is that you realize what the value of what we call material reality vs. infinite bliss- it can't be quantified, so some call it nothingness- but it's not nothingness, it just can't be described in terms of quantity. To some, nothing and infinity is the same, because they are unquantifiable, but it really isn't the same- with nothingness, nothing ever was there, with infinity everything was there, even if in terms of the unquantifiable, it was just a dream.

Even suffering is better than nothingness,

And this goes to the core of what ancient sages have been saying- that material reality is what happens when you want to experience (the body(bodies) being the result of desire. While there is desire there will be the experience of the material. It has nothing to do with good or bad, it is simply the desire to experience.

at least there is also joy and bliss often in my world now, now that I'm not enlightened.

And bless you for that.

And buddha said the only way to truly experience real bliss is enlightenment, was he lying?

He wasn't lying. But what he was also saying is that suffering is not living, suffering is being attached to living. That's what the middle way is- you see, in his time there were many ascetes teaching that the way to enlightenment was to leave the body behind, to leave the world behind, and have nothing. The Buddha realized this was not so- that ascetics are as attached to their suffering as much as hedonists are attached to their pleasure, and are both equally destined to stay on the wheel- that the real problem was the attachment to this reality (or any reality, really) that it is not renunciation of the world which brings liberation, is coming to the realization that attachment to the outcome is what causes suffering, therefore to realize what the world is (illusion) is to attain enlightenment (or the path to enlightenment) -that it is not necessary to give life and love and things up, but to not be attached to them any more- to take or leave it equally is what is required to stop suffering.

Are my only two options in the world suffering or nothingness? Are you guys saying that there is nothing satisfying ever to be achieved? That meditation ceases to be blissful?

No- meditation ceases to be blissful when you think you have attained the sense of no-being, and there is nothing else to do.
The problem is that some people think that they have realized enlightenment when they believe they have unattached themselves to the world, but the sense of 'now what?' is also a form of attachment- they are really not done- because of this sense of 'now what'? Is a form of desire, and the wheel keep on turnin'.

[CFTraveler]

BTW, I agree with SP3's advice- do good things, because when you realize you don't have to be attached to the world, you realize it's a wonderful gift, if you make it so. And you make it so by doing good deeds.
Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Do unto others...."

[wstein]

Well farewell2arms I've got good news and bad news. Your observation about things becoming dull is correct (after the panic of the transition subsides). You have not misunderstood.

For most the realization comes like an avalanche. Once started little control is possible. Most commonly this shift follows a long attempt to seek truth (or something similar). At some point something gives and the 'glamour' of the world is lost.

Why bother is a question often asked in the 'enlightened state'. Really the revelation is somewhat of a letdown in that way. I will flatly state that love and bliss are not the direct result of this effort. Love and bliss (and much else) are actually false ideas about 'nirvana'. This enlightenment is about really perceiving that all is of the same nature, in fact all are just parts of a singular (thing). There is a lot of baggage associated with separation and the belief that things are inherently separate. When you realize that there is no separateness, the bright contrasts and conflicts go away. After a fair amount of outrage and disillusionment, one can start to appreciate the beauty of the elaborate finery of the way the one expresses itself. This inevitably leads to less stimulation (drama and trauma) making the world seem less vibrant at first. That is replaced with an inner peace and sense of well being. Though fewer things seem to need doing, those you still choose to do take so much less effort to accomplish.

Taking this step is definitely incompatible with wanting to 'relive every life on earth'. You would quickly realize that in a way you already are living all those lives, and secondly that lives are not really that different so there is no need to repeat the same thing in all its possible variations. It's about the living not the details of the situation that is of substance.

I do not see any compelling reason why enlightenment is needed. Really this is just a choice you can make at this point. If you wait until afterwards, you really can't go back. Do you really want nirvana or do you like what you have now?

My personal advice: if you don't REALLY want it, I suggest taking another path.

[Tutor]

Oneness, "He is One, and His Name is One".

not sure I am all that crazy about the gender fixedness, but the ancient statement reveals the process of Nature that Name arises from. but it depends upon one who may see the symbolic nature behind all the written names/words which present a literal story.

we must see the present twofold, that while darkness is lifting, the early mists (gathering) are upon the water for a foggy mourn, and that just as in nature the dawning light will in due time prevail upon the waters to lift and evaporate the mists for the pristene reflection (beautific vision) long hidden from our view.

do not the birds begin singing even before darkness would release it's hold and flee? yet, the birds have certainty, and man has certainly forgotten (how) to live one day at a time.

[i_am_beth]

The problem is that some people think that they have realized enlightenment when they believe they have unattached themselves to the world, but the sense of 'now what?' is also a form of attachment- they are really not done- because of this sense of 'now what'? Is a form of desire, and the wheel keep on turnin'.

I get the "why bother" and the "now what" well. As time goes on, I become more and more the observer and am able to avoid drama and trauma. I can stay out of "story" pretty well - both mine and others. I'm still pretty attached to sensation, friends and family, animals, nature, and beauty in all forms tho. Oh well. Still a long way to go. Looking for the time slips and astral jumps that come so frequently now. : )

[farewell2arms]

Well. It seems like I have been afraid of love not existing. I still am, but I have made some headway... a lot of pain yesterday, and some suicidal thoughts. All better now, though. I'm not a quitter =). Though love still exists in my life. Meditation is still bliss.

What I primarily have learned from this is that I cannot take anything for granted. Love is still in my life though. I think this is because I cannot comprehend the level which this discussion is taking place, at my current "stage". I think this is because the words you use have different meanings to you than to me, because I lack personal experience in this area.

The avalanche you speak of, has already been set in motion for me. I have been on a search for truth my whole life. I didn't realize this until a few weeks back. Things seems to move so fast, now. Three months ago, I read my first Robert Bruce book and had no experience, and now, I can almost perceive people as a part of me. This will continue, I'm sure. There's no turning back for me. =)

What I feel more strongly now is that my pain is nothing compared to the suffering of the world today. I have had my eyes closed to this. People think their pain is real, and as long as they think that, it is real to them, and this needs to stop. I've really been stuck in my ego, thinking only of myself.

[ButterflyWoman]

Well. It seems like I have been afraid of love not existing.

It exists as much as anything else does.

The avalanche you speak of, has already been set in motion for me. I have been on a search for truth my whole life.

Yes, I understand. My entire life has been dedicated to the search for the Divine. I didn't fully understand that until I was in my thirties, but it certainly is the case. Everything else has always been secondary.

With regard to your pain, it's caused in part by resistance. When I was in excruciating pain once, I got a message: Embrace the pain. I thought it was bizarre, but I had been in barely tolerable pain for several days (severe tooth infection, no way to get out to a dentist), and so I did what I was told, and I moved right into the pain. I found that when I stopped fighting it and stopped judging it, I could perceive it as something else, as just "strong sensation". I learned a great deal from that episode, and I can tell you that it works on emotional/mental pain as well. It's worth trying.

[wstein]

Well. It seems like I have been afraid of love not existing. I still am, but I have made some headway... a lot of pain yesterday, and some suicidal thoughts. All better now, though. I'm not a quitter =). Though love still exists in my life. Meditation is still bliss.

What I primarily have learned from this is that I cannot take anything for granted. Love is still in my life though. I think this is because I cannot comprehend the level which this discussion is taking place, at my current "stage". I think this is because the words you use have different meanings to you than to me, because I lack personal experience in this area.

The avalanche you speak of, has already been set in motion for me. I have been on a search for truth my whole life. I didn't realize this until a few weeks back. Things seems to move so fast, now. Three months ago, I read my first Robert Bruce book and had no experience, and now, I can almost perceive people as a part of me. This will continue, I'm sure. There's no turning back for me. =)

This is one of the few places you don't have to be completely isolated in this process. As you can see, your situation is being responded to.

Understanding is really not necessary. As you start to come out the other side, things that were impossible to understand become obvious. That does not necessarily mean you will understand afterward.

For most there come waves after waves of shocking awarenesses. The reality you once thought real is not even close to the way things actually are. It will almost literally fall apart revealing what you were unable to see before. Don't worry, though reality won't look anything like you know it new, it doesn't all go away. There are several on these forums that have come out the other side. They still live in the same world you do but they see it in a whole different way. Ones concept of love and what it is will undergo a similar transformation. Love is real but probably not what you thought it to be.

As to suicide, don't bother with that now. You have already set things in motion, you might as well find out what's under the wrapping before you decide about living.

Things are a whole lot more stable on the 'other' side.

[SP3]

There are evil spirits or entities which place thoughts and feelings inside of you to defeat you. This is why meditation is so important, to help you step back from thoughts and feelings which are not yours. It makes you more aware of what is going on in front of you in all areas of life.