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Hastor
6th August 2010, 05:12 AM
I used to tool around here a nice while back and left for certain reasons. The reason I came back is because of a question that's been nagging me for a couple of days. What control do we actually exert over our subconscious during the dream state? I've been thinking of what exactly the dream space is when it comes to our subconscious. Is it just like a mirror into a deeper part of ourselves unto which we have not way of interaction, or is it an environment in which our existence and concentrated energies could establish fundamental changes in the most basic part of ourselves? My scenario is: in a lucid dream would I be able, with sufficient concentration, to organize and materialize the essence that is my subconscious? Would I be able to distill the raw energies dormant there into a more recognizable form, one which I might be able to interact with? Now, I understand that the initial problem with this would be ensuring that a true entity would be created. What I think, and I would love for anyone here to prove me wrong so I can go on with my life, is that there is a potential to interact with the subconscious environment to the extent that an avatar of that part of the mind could be created to a degree that its existence is self-sustained and entirely apart from the conscious faculties of the waking mind. I would appreciate any word on this.

Much thanks,
Hastor

TL;DR: Lucid dreaming+concentration=mind-tulpa?

Korpo
6th August 2010, 08:53 AM
Hello, Hastor.

Interaction with the subconscious? I certainly think so.

Control over the subconscious? I severely doubt it.

I can really recommend Robert Waggoner's "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self" in this regard. It's his description of his interaction with the subconscious (and in my opinion, beyond that) through means of lucid dreaming. It's a rather thorough, non-biased and open-ended investigation he has conducted in the book, at least as far as I have read it yet (I'm currently reading it).


What I think, and I would love for anyone here to prove me wrong so I can go on with my life, is that there is a potential to interact with the subconscious environment to the extent that an avatar of that part of the mind could be created to a degree that its existence is self-sustained and entirely apart from the conscious faculties of the waking mind. I would appreciate any word on this.

Why?

I would also not think that the subconscious is separate from the waking mind in the sense of a clear and definite boundary.

Cheers,
Oliver

Hastor
6th August 2010, 10:49 PM
Control over the subconscious? I severely doubt it.
- I'm not entirely suggesting control as much as refinement. What I'm tending towards is either the creation or discovery of a guide within the subconscious. A personalized creation whose sole purpose is to preside over the subconscious and direct you when you enter a dream.


Why?
- I've just been thinking of the utility of being able to have a clear line of communication to a part of myself that, for the longest time, has been a mystery to me.

Palehorse Redivivus
6th August 2010, 10:55 PM
Hastor,

Interesting subject; thanks for bringing it up.

I concieve of the subconscious mind as both environment and anatomy. The way I visualize the layout and interactions is a lot like the Mandelbrot fractal, where perhaps one of the smaller spheres is one's conscious mind, a larger one attached to it is the subconscious, and that gates into the collective unconscious which is of course even larger still. Each of these spheres is undoubtedly much more complex and mobile than the usual 2D rendering, overlapping many planes, states of awareness and so forth. One's dreamspace I take to be a mix of both; we can have dreams whose characters and settings are a reflection of our own subconscious material, or they can include places and people who are separate and autonomous from ourselves.

Just as it's possible to exert control over one's own mind, will and take care of one's health, as well as to tame and utilize a formerly "wild" environment, so too is it possible to do the same with one's subconscious mind. It would probably be helpful to keep in mind the principle that humans have a tendency to steamroll and pave over the natural environment to the point of extinction; on the other hand, if we didn't impose a framework to make improvements to the wild for our own use, we would be unable to live and evolve in it.

So I would say it's possible to treat the subconscious mind like an environment to explore and harness, though this should be done with a mix of imposing a framework in some cases, and leaving things alone to evolve, be observed, explored and enjoyed in others.


Control over the subconscious? I severely doubt it.
- I'm not entirely suggesting control as much as refinement. What I'm tending towards is either the creation or discovery of a guide within the subconscious. A personalized creation whose sole purpose is to preside over the subconscious and direct you when you enter a dream.

What I think you may be looking for there, is the Psychopomp. In mythology this is an archetypal character who ferries the dead from the physical world to their afterlife in the underworld. In subconscious terms, IMO this is a character (not always necessarily perceptible in order to be functional) which acts as the intermediary between the waking and dream states. The "dweller on the threshold" encountered upon projecting may also be relevant here, though it's my opinion that the creepy, incoherent, piggybacking dweller often encountered is a misaligned version of its actual ideal purpose.



- I've just been thinking of the utility of being able to have a clear line of communication to a part of myself that, for the longest time, has been a mystery to me.

I'm not sure how my experience compares to that of others, but for a long time, before I developed my understanding (and/or compared notes with historical mythology and Jungian material, which I think I may be beginning to move away from and evolving various parts of my anatomy into something else entirely, but such is the process of individuation, no?) I had what I called "the Bouncer," which may have been my own personal spin on the Psychopomp based on what I needed at that time. This I took to be the part of myself between the waking state and subconscious mind which keeps unwanted influences out, and I had a lot of success dialoguing with to "run errands" inside my subby, make changes and such without actually having to take my conscious awareness in there myself.

eyeoneblack
7th August 2010, 08:19 AM
there is a potential to interact with the subconscious environment to the extent that an avatar of that part of the mind could be created to a degree that its existence is self-sustained and entirely apart from the conscious faculties of the waking mind.


Hi, Hastor :)

It would seem to me you’re describing the situation as it already exists. Our consciousness is merely the shadow of our subconscious life. This avatar you wonder about creating is the reality whereas your conscious waking mind is the illusion. It’s like a flea wondering if he can create a dog.

So if we approach the problem from the other direction we wonder if we can create an avatar in the waking conscious life that is self-sustained and entirely apart from the faculties of the subconscious reality. Unfortunately, the answer is ‘yes’ and these zombies are walking the streets as I write.

p.s. don’t just drop in, hang around awhile. I know it can get crazy here and wonder from week to week if I haven’t had enough, but where else are you going to find such great minds as the one’s that troll these forums?

Hastor
8th August 2010, 04:42 AM
...environment to explore and harness, though this should be done with a mix of imposing a framework in some cases, and leaving things alone to evolve, be observed, explored and enjoyed in others.
- I would guess I would be looking for some type of Jane Goodall-esque character that can explore the environment for me as opposed to me drunkenly stumbling through the place while lucid.


...is the Psychopomp. In mythology this is an archetypal character...
- Actually, ow that I think about it, this is exactly what I don't want. Not to sound like an ass, but I don't want to have to interact through a medium that is as unrecognizable and vague as many archetypes are. Interesting, though, it was this that made me realize exactly what I was trying to put into words. In the same way that my conscious mind is constantly molded and shaped by consciously perceived (and some unconscious) events, I want to be able to shape my conscious mind by the vivid and expansive environment that is the subconscious. I guess what I mean is that I want to shape a portion of my conscious mind, a part of my true self, and leave it in the environment to grow and explore. Upon entering the subconscious I would be able to interact with an "archetype" of myself that had, like an explorer of old, had seen and interacted with that environment to the extent that the subconscious had become him [or her?(or it?)]. The point of this is that upon inside the subconscious I would have a guide that could show me where I was (thus inducing lucidity) and guide me throughout the environment that it calls home. The thing about this guide is that it would truly be myself. It would be the same result as if I lived not in the conscious mind, but the subconscious. Can you dig it? I seem to have been told that in person I have extensive use of articulation and rhetoric, but it seems that here I am handicapped most of the time when it comes to trying to explain my ideas.


Unfortunately, the answer is ‘yes’ and these zombies are walking the streets as I write
- Could you extrapolate a bit? Not because it seems terribly relevant as much as how it seems so terribly interesting. :D



...such great minds as the one’s that troll these forums?
- I've actually thought a bit about this after I technically left. Here's the post if you've got time to waste. I think that ideas like this act like a flame to all the moths out there and it is few to find them in the hum drum motions of life. Regardless, it's true. You guys are truly great.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=17862 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=17862)

CFTraveler
8th August 2010, 05:48 AM
Hastor, I can't follow the link (it's to a reply box in said post) and I couldn't figure out how to go to the thread itself.

eyeoneblack
8th August 2010, 01:21 PM
Unfortunately, the answer is ‘yes’ and these zombies are walking the streets as I write


- Could you extrapolate a bit? Not because it seems terribly relevant as much as how it seems so terribly interesting.

Oh, I'm sorry. I hate being irrelevant, never mind. I suggest you read my post again - it's not where you want to go, but it's true or 'relevant' all the same. You're looking in the mirror and wondering if you can make that image self-sustaining, but it's only a reflection. Again, I'm sorry to be so irrelevant. :(

eyeoneblack
8th August 2010, 01:42 PM
Grrr! :evil:

Let's start over and I'll explain how your imagination of an astral guide is already an established fact and not in need of any 'work' - that it is up to you to accept. Tune in and there you have it. :lol:



Richard