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GMAN12
9th May 2013, 02:42 AM
I was looking at that discussion of the 2045 thing that they want to do. It was started by a billionaire who wants to revive his dead grandparent and put him in a robot. The thing is, it won't work because he is dead and all that will be alive is memories. I started a separate topic because I want to do a pros and cons and compare it to a spiritual type of immortality and to transfer consciousness.

2045

Pros: Immortal, invulnerable, though they say they want to implement all the senses so I do not see how that is going to work out.

Cons: Step down from human evolution. Technically immortal till killed off by something like Emp. Humans are still superior. Can probably be hacked into. He also says by 2045 he wants to create holographic bodies. That risks of someone taking your body, yet it is a hologram so technically you become intelligence. Can't eat food regularly. Stay away from magnets. Fire melts you. Ice freezes you. Can be controlled by the government.

Realized and Awakened Human

Pros: Can become immortal, master of the elements, can make self invulnerable, materialize other bodies yourself and put artificial minds in them and control them because they are all connected to one mind, transference of consciousness to other objects at will, can eat, drink, feel, smell, develop the astral senses, become wiser by the age, shape your reality, break free from control of the government, able to die at will, fly, live without being supplied by a battery for life, do martial arts, meditate, and lots of other things that are thought to be impossible, yet they are possible.

Cons: none.

You can't do much with technology which is actually what I think a manifestation of science itself.

-asalantu-
9th May 2013, 03:42 AM
¡Hi, GMAN12!

I agree with you in all.

Now, try following thought experiment.

Let's suppose, near 2045 an intelligent machine (able of to scan memories of either living biological humans or cyborgs), scans your memory (GMAN12's memory). From now (2013) to then (2045) you'll have evolved a lot (¡more than 30 years of evolution!).

¿Can you imagine machine' shock when discover that memories related to psychic/spiritual experiences are not result from imagination but real experiences? Many experiences like OBE confirmed through reality checks.

Such intelligent machine surely might try by itself (through deep examination of Robert Bruce's treatises, books, tutorials, videos, etc.; all they available at your memory) and not being able of to reproduce such results, ¿how can you neglect possibility of such intelligent machine try to go back to biological support of conciousness?

My advice is, GMAN12, master all that psychic/spiritual skills and contact such intelligent machine allowing her to scan your memory. Might you be the "virus" that disassembles such technological "achievement".

My best regards,
Ángel

BDeye
9th May 2013, 08:28 AM
Good points Gman.

Couple of things that I feel, no aggression just in case my tone comes off that way. First thing, when speaking of superior I tend to hold back a little, sure if we take two cars and stick them in a race, we can obviously lead ourselves to the conclusion that the winning vehicles speed was superior, but that doesn't make it a superior vehicle, just a fast car. Thoughts of superiority can lead to actions of segregating the "inferior", and we all know how that went.

Say for instance I had a full body conversion, switched over to robot, but still retained a sense of self (or didn't) would you feel comfortable sitting in a room with me and having a conversation, or would I be an abomination fit only for the scrap heap. Would this change invalidate my reason or allowance to exist.

Another point I notice is that there is a general feeling that it is unnatural in some way. Now here my point of view is quite different again in that I don't feel that there can be anything unnatural in the universe. If it exists it must be apart of this universe and hence a natural occurrence. Sure there can be synthetic creations by man, but can't we say that the universe produced naturally an entity that was able to create these synthetic objects, then don't these objects in their turn become natural occurrences. I guess what I'm trying to say. could we suppose that it may be a part of a species natural evolution that it reaches a state where it is now capable of altering the course of that evolution at will, through the medium of technology (
or spirituality).

Again this all comes down to the right to choose, if it is forced on us it is a rape of choice which is wrong. If those that choose this change are seen as abominations and unfit for basic rights to exist, it's wrong. If those that choose this and start seeing themselves as superior and those that remained unchanged as inferior, it's wrong. How we handle these changes will dictate the right and wrongs of them, not the changes. Again the right and wrong of a thing is semantic at best (but I'll leave that one alone).

Sorry for the ramble.

B.

CFTraveler
9th May 2013, 12:43 PM
There is a similar conversation going on- a 'hoax' website named genpets. It has generated controversy, not because of the heinous nature of what it implies, but the fact that there are people that want to buy them. This is one of the things that I think about when I see themes like this. Does anyone remember the older (Was it Twilight Zone?) story about the brains in jars? (Possibly a precursor to the Matrix).

I agree B, that anything that exists in nature is natural, and the human progression (if there is such a thing) may end that way, there are so many possibilities, but the idea of being tied, or held prisoner to technolgy, well, it seems like a kind of hell to me.

BDeye
9th May 2013, 12:48 PM
Of course CFT, very unpleasant. No one should ever be force to experience something that goes against the grain.

-asalantu-
9th May 2013, 07:58 PM
¡Hi, CFTraveler!

This 2045 stuff remembers, something what I call prequel and is the Chapter 37 ("Experiment") from great and former Arthur C. Clarke.

It reads:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
37 - Experiment
Call it the Star Crate. For three million years, it had circled Saturn, waiting for a moment of destiny that might never come. In its making, a moon had been shattered, and the debris of its creation orbited still. Now the long wait was ending. On yet another world, intelligence had been born and was escaping from its planetary cradle. An ancient experiment was about to reach its climax. Those who had begun that experiment, so long ago, had not been men - or even remotely human. But they were flesh and blood, and when they looked out across the deeps of space, they bad felt awe, and wonder, and loneliness. As soon as they possessed the power, they set forth for the stars. In their explorations, they encountered life in many forms, and watched the workings of evolution on a thousand worlds. They saw how often the first faint sparks of intelligence flickered and died in the cosmic night. And because, in all the galaxy, they had found nothing more precious than Mind, they encouraged its dawning everywhere. They became farmers in the fields of stars; they sowed, and sometimes they reaped. And sometimes, dispassionately, they had to weed. The great dinosaurs had long since perished when the survey ship entered the Solar System after a voyage that had already lasted a thousand years. It swept past the frozen outer planets, paused briefly above the deserts of dying Mars, and presently looked down on Earth. Spread out beneath them, the explorers saw a world swarming with life. For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify. They tinkered with the destiny of many species, on land and in the ocean. But which of their experiments would succeed they could not know for at least a million years. They were patient, but they were not yet immortal. There was so much to do in this universe of a hundred billion suns, and other worlds were calling. So they set out once more into the abyss, knowing that they would never come this way again. Nor was there any need. The servants they had left behind would do the rest. On Earth, the glaciers came and went, while above them the changeless Moon still carried its secret. With a yet slower rhythm than the polar ice, the tides of civilization ebbed and flowed across the galaxy. Strange and beautiful and terrible empires rose and fell, and passed on their knowledge to their successors. Earth was not forgotten, but another visit would serve little purpose. It was one of a million silent worlds, few of which would ever speak. And now, out among the stars, evolution was driving toward new goals. The first explorers of Earth had long since come to the limits of flesh and blood; as soon as their machines were better than their bodies, it was time to move. First their brains, and then their thoughts alone, they transferred into shining new homes of metal and of plastic. In these, they roamed among the stars. They no longer built spaceships. They were spaceships. But the age of the Machine-entities swiftly passed. In their ceaseless experimenting, they had learned to store knowledge in the structure of space itself, and to preserve their thoughts for eternity in frozen lattices of light. They could become creatures of radiation, free at last from the tyranny of matter. Into pure energy, therefore, they presently transformed themselves; and on a thousand worlds, the empty shells they had discarded twitched for a while in a mindless dance of death, then crumbled into rustyNow they were lords of the galaxy, and beyond the reach of time. They could rove at will among the stars, and sink like a subtle mist through the very interstices of space. But despite their godlike powers, they had not wholly forgotten their origin, in the warm slime of a vanished sea. And they still watched over the experiments their ancestors had started, so long ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And

And about ethics of 2045 stuff, previous quote provides a context where widely not only justify such sacrifice but maybe thirst of knowledge will be strong seed and desire of change a biological body for metal & plastic...

¿Are you with me, CFT?

My best regards,
Ángel

BDeye
9th May 2013, 08:16 PM
I'm not speaking for anyone else Asalantu but I find it quite a novel idea and one I'd gladly take, if it meant I could explore the furthest reaches of space. So for what it's worth I 'm with you on this one. Thanks as well for giving me another book to add to my collection, always enjoy a good read, feel terrible that I missed this one.

GMAN12
9th May 2013, 08:52 PM
This is a matter of my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.

I don't think it would be possible to get information like that uploaded into your mind because it is artificial. The hardest part is transferring your consciousness because transferring your brain does not cut it. Also to Asalantu; There was a place called Atlantis thousands of years ago. It was given technology that was not like our technology. They were much further into the future than we are today. I am highly doubting that by 2045 we will have bodies that will support us in that way. If it was meant to be so by Divine Providence, then I will let it be, but I don't think everyone would be able to get into a body, but at the same time, it is like growing closer to material life. What is life without death? It won't solve much problems besides not needing food, water, disease, but I could say a disease would be like a virus in a body in which it would be easy to hack into you which is a disadvantage and then an EMP can take out the whole world if everyone were in a robot body thus taking out the robot race. I actually oppose doing such a thing, but surely I would have learned kabbalah by that point in time and would be able to change my fate if it were to happen, or deprive their will if they try to stuff me into a robot.

CFTraveler
9th May 2013, 09:17 PM
Angel, I'm pretty sure I read that book, a long time ago. When I was younger I read voraciously. Asimov, Clarke, Bradbury, and even Hubbard. (His science fiction was awesome.) I loved them all and think of them fondly. I think the golden age of science fiction happened when I was a teenager.

-asalantu-
10th May 2013, 12:56 AM
ERRATUM:

At 6th post of this thread, where it reads: <This 2045 stuff remembers, something what I call prequel and is the Chapter 37 ("Experiment") from great and former Arthur C. Clarke>

must reads:

<This 2045 stuff remembers, something what I call prequel and is the Chapter 37 ("Experiment") of "2001: A Space Odyssey," from great and former Arthur C. Clarke>

Now you has the full and reliable reference.

Sincere apologies...
Ángel

-asalantu-
10th May 2013, 01:21 AM
Puede que con el presente nivel tecnológico los objetivos de este proyecto sean rayanos en la más absoluta fantasía y al profano parezcan risibles, broma de mal gusto ó, se sienta tentado de atribuirlo a una nueva carrera tecnológica (así como lo han sido la armamentista y la espacial) en la cual su gobierno dilapide cientos de miles de millones de dólares, pero a lo largo de los próximos 30 años teniendo como objetivo los propuestos por este empresario ruso (Dmitry Itzskov), sin lugar a dudas, se producirán los más increíbles y apasionantes descubrimientos en el ámbito multidisciplinario asociado.

Es tan sólo cuestión de organización y coordinación de fuerzas intelectuales, todo lo que es necesario. Tan sólo una tosca búsqueda con las keywords:

M.I.T. 2045 Strategic Social Initiative

revela que ya hay científicos del MIT involucrados; y, del MIT, provienen los mejores del mundo.

Vienen a mi memoria las palabras de John Fitzgerald Kennedy:

"Elegimos ir a la Luna en esta década y hacer las otras cosas no porque sean fáciles, sino porque son difíciles, porque ese objetivo servirá para organizar y medir lo mejor de nuestras energías y habilidades, porque ese reto es uno que estamos deseando aceptar, uno que no estamos dispuestos a posponer, y uno que pretendemos ganar, y los otros también."
Ref.: http://es.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy

Sinceramente confío que el resultado de este proyecto sea para bien, de lo contrario lo lamentaremos y mucho más que cualquier desatino que la Humanidad haya cometido a lo largo de su historia.

Sinceramente...
Ángel

CFTraveler
10th May 2013, 01:38 AM
Sinceramente confío que el resultado de este proyecto sea para bien, de lo contrario lo lamentaremos y mucho más que cualquier desatino que la Humanidad haya cometido a lo largo de su historia.

Sinceramente...
Ángel Como dice el dicho en inglés: "De tu boca a los oídos de Dios".

heliac
10th May 2013, 02:02 AM
You can't do much with technology which is actually what I think a manifestation of science itself.

Possibly, although one could say that we humans already exist as a form of technology. A form of bio/chemical technology that has evolved over time as a result of adapting to our environment(internal and external).

What i'd like to know is if we are capable of passing ourselves into a machine(not biological) will we take with us the quality of experience. How does having biochemical senses/organs affect consciousness and how we can know stuff vs non-biochemical senses. Is the robot body capable of knowing based on experience or is the robot's capacity to know based on programming.

For example, the robot could have complete human knowledge of what color is and how it works. It can know that colors are mixtures of light made by electromagnetic waves and how to respond to seeing something like a color but is it actually experiencing the color?

-asalantu-
10th May 2013, 02:16 AM
¡Hola, CFTraveler!

Tan sólo un obstáculo veo en toda esta iniciativa tecnológica:

"Si como Robert Bruce argumenta, el total de la memoria de un individuo está alojada en el espíritu, ¿no plantea tal circunstancia un límite a la profundidad de escaneo?".

Por lo que con los actuales medios tecnológicos será imposible siquiera intentar la copia fiel de esos recuerdos; razón por la cual la inteligencia artificial cualquiera sea la que fuere desarrollada no contará con el background necesario para su desempeño conforme lo hace el original. Será cual una fruta que sólo es cáscara.

¿O me equivoco?

Sinceramente...
Ángel

CFTraveler
10th May 2013, 01:08 PM
Possibly, although one could say that we humans already exist as a form of technology. A form of bio/chemical technology that has evolved over time as a result of adapting to our environment(internal and external).

What i'd like to know is if we are capable of passing ourselves into a machine(not biological) will we take with us the quality of experience. How does having biochemical senses/organs affect consciousness and how we can know stuff vs non-biochemical senses. Is the robot body capable of knowing based on experience or is the robot's capacity to know based on programming.

For example, the robot could have complete human knowledge of what color is and how it works. It can know that colors are mixtures of light made by electromagnetic waves and how to respond to seeing something like a color but is it actually experiencing the color? If you take what we know about the human nervous system, and how plastic it is, and how easily it can go wrong, I wonder how we can bypass all the possibilities of "doing it wrong-Cylon style" and creating a machine with a nervous system that can render it insane. Just one of the things that can happen. Which begs the question, we already are at the technological point in which we can program genetic information on purpose into babies, and if rumor has it right, they have already messed with "creating" a human being with two eggs and one sperm (I believe they inserted mitochondrial DNA into one egg, and then fertilized it, I'd have to look for a link to this) - will they be able to program "empathic" robots, "altruistic" robots, or "sociopathic" robots for various purposes? Once again, I have no doubt that eventually it will be possible, but I don't know that I want to live in such a world.

CFTraveler
10th May 2013, 01:25 PM
¡Hola, CFTraveler!

Tan sólo un obstáculo veo en toda esta iniciativa tecnológica:

"Si como Robert Bruce argumenta, el total de la memoria de un individuo está alojada en el espíritu, ¿no plantea tal circunstancia un límite a la profundidad de escaneo?".

Por lo que con los actuales medios tecnológicos será imposible siquiera intentar la copia fiel de esos recuerdos; razón por la cual la inteligencia artificial cualquiera sea la que fuere desarrollada no contará con el background necesario para su desempeño conforme lo hace el original. Será cual una fruta que sólo es cáscara.

¿O me equivoco?

Sinceramente...
Ángel Depende de qué definición él está usando para espiritu. Lo ultimo que recuerdo de sus escrituras es que él cree que el ser humano tiene un alma y un espíritu, y el alma es la totalidad de la persona, espiritual y físicamente, mientras que en este caso las memorias serían impresas en el alma, para ser eventualmente transferidas a los registros akáshicos. Asi que sería dificil (si no imposible) transferir todas las memorias antes de que el cuerpo etérico se desvanezca a la maquinaria, y no me imagino cómo podríamos convertir la información en los RA en material que fuese transferible.
Pero desde el punto de vista biológico, si la memoria se puede recuperar en forma holográfica (que es como se almacena, segun los cientificos ultimamente) tendrá mas probabilidades de poder ser almacenada correctamente. Pero si se almacena en 'pedazos' en diferentes partes del cerebro/u otra matriz, entonces no veo como puede ser posible.
Quien sabe.
:shrug:

BDeye
10th May 2013, 01:43 PM
Even though I've been admitting to wanting to try this, a question I've asked myself, is will this downloaded version only be a very good copy. The original being destroyed in the download. It may not know the difference (or it may feel something lacking). These are only idealistic hypothetical situations though and I like to propose an equally idealistic hypothetical, would if we were guaranteed a true download of the whole individual, soul and all, and be guaranteed absolute freedom (or at least as much as we have now) would you still say no.

CFTraveler
10th May 2013, 01:56 PM
I'd say no, only because in my current worldview I'm a point of view having a series of experiences, some in timespace, and some in some other type of medium, to be figured out later. I think that if memories can be downloaded into a semi-sentient piece of machinery, it would not be 'me'. If I wrote my autobiography, my memories would be recorded in it; the reader may have an idea of who I am, but I'm not the book. But the idea of being forever trapped in he the book due to some sort of technological 'advance', is not my idea of existence, at least none that I'm attracted to.
It's like the idea of eternal recurrence- the 'immortal' part of it sounds interesting, but the 'replay' of it sounds horrendous. At least for now, in my current worldview, subject to change without notice. :D

-asalantu-
11th May 2013, 05:30 AM
Se ha estado hablando mucho de hacer un vuelco de memoria, pero ese no es sino uno entre varios factores que describen a una persona. Está también el problema de cómo hace, la persona en cuestión, uso de esos recuerdos.

En todo momento, estamos haciendo "algo", y ese "algo" depende no solo de lo que en nuestra memoria está almacenado, sino también de un modus operandi dependiente del entorno que nos rodea, y al cual pueden asociarse imponderables tales como el accionar por impulso basado en la intuición; siendo la intuición algo que va más allá del pensamiento consciente y que bien puede depender de las órdenes que nos transmite nuestro Higher Self y son captadas por nuestra parte subconsciente que es, en realidad, lo que configura nuestro accionar consciente.

Concluyendo, pienso que si la humanidad ha de evolucionar en "algo" que sea incapaz de experimentar la disolución implicada por la muerte, debemos respetar ese "algo" desde su nacimiento, así como respetamos a los niños humanos que inicialmente son bebés cuando nacen y no luchamos por imponer a ellos nuestro modo de pensar.

Asi podremos "morir" tranquilos, sin aferrarnos a falsas expectativas, en tanto que una forma más evolucionada de "ser de existencia física" toma la posta y continúa el camino de la evolución.

Se habla tanto de las experiencias cercanas a la muerte, pero pocas personas toman la iniciativa de pensar que constituyen una puerta a una existencia superior.

Pueda ser que en los próximos 30 años, en la carrera a la VIDA ETERNA, la nueva tecnología emergente tropiece con problemas que sólo pueden ser resueltos incorporando conceptos como los que manejamos en estos foros. Así maduraremos y si en verdad lo deseamos una nueva especie (con vida eterna) verá la luz y coexistirá con nosotros; nutriéndose de nuestra experiencia que con gusto compartiremos con ella.

Nosotros, una especie feliz de saber que más allá de la muerte nos espera la luz de un estilo de vida superior "más allá de la tiranía de la materia" (Como dice Arthur C. Clarke, Ref.: "Capitulo 37: Experimento", en "2001: Una Odisea del Espacio").

Atentamente...
Ángel

Translation:

Ángel said:
We've talked about doing a memory downloads, but this is but one in many factors that describe what a person is. There's also the problem of how the person in question, uses those memories.


At every moment of our lives we're doing "something", and this "something" not only depends on what our memory has stored, but also on a modus operandi that depends on our surrounding environment, which can include such things as acting on impulse based on intuition, intuition being something that is beyond conscious thought and which may also include orders from our Higher Self received by our subconscious which is, actually, the part that actually configures our conscious behaviours.


In conclusion, I think that if humanity is going to evolve into "something" that is incapable of experiencing the dissolution implied by death, we must respect this "something" from its inception, in just the way we respect human infants, who, when they are born we do not fight them or impose our worldview on them.


Thusly we can "die" in peace, without holding on to false expectations, so that a more evolved form of "physical existence" takes the reins and continues its evolutionary march.


We talk a lot about Near Death Experiences, but few people take the initiative of thinking that they constitute a door towards a superior existence.


It may be that in the next thirty years, on the race to Eternal Life, the new emerging technology may stumble upon problems that can only be solved incorporating concepts such as the ones we discuss here in these forums. That way we'll mature and if we really desire it a new species (with eternal life) will see the light and will coexist with us; learning from our experiences, which we will happily share with them.


We'll become, a species that is happy to know that light is waiting for us in the afterlife in a type of superior life "beyond the tyranny of matter" (Like Arthur C. Clarke said, in Chapter 37: Experiment, in "2001, A Space Oddysey". http://jo.koan.net/2001/2001.html




Attentively,
Ángel

GMAN12
11th May 2013, 06:05 AM
Now I have a new perspective. So after they transferred all the humans into robots, what about the bodies and the other spirits that have to reincarnate? Will us as robots have to keep the bodies alive and mate them ourselves? It seems kind of strange unless you know how to easily transfer your consciousness.

Note from CF:
I translated what Angel said above this post. I think it answers your question. Read it, it's worth it.

-asalantu-
11th May 2013, 04:26 PM
Now I have a new perspective. So after they transferred all the humans into robots, what about the bodies and the other spirits that have to reincarnate? Will us as robots have to keep the bodies alive and mate them ourselves? It seems kind of strange unless you know how to easily transfer your consciousness.

De acuerdo con algunos (Tuesday Lobsang Rampa, por ejemplo) el propósito de la vida sobre la Tierra es pasar por experiencias imposibles en el mundo de los espíritus, tales como enfermedad, muerte, riqueza, pobreza, sometimiento a una autoridad política, grados de esclavitud, cárcel, etc. etc..

En razón del conocimiento que en el mundo de los espíritus se tiene de las tendencias ideológicas y preocupaciones terrícolas no sería impensable que ya estuviera previsto que a partir de cierto punto en la Historia venidera, el género humano desarrolle la capacidad de la supervivencia indefinida mediante tecnologías alternativas como la propuesta para el año 2045.

Así, los espíritus que se reencarnen y lleguen a ese año (ó en su proximidad) crítico, podrían tener como desafío planeado el dilema del cambio de estilo de vida ligado a esa tecnología.

Pero, tal migración (atento las leyes relacionadas con la eutanasia) no tendría lugar sino al momento de la muerte inevitable del interesado.

Atentamente...
Ángel

Translation:

According to some (Tuesday Lobsang Rampa, for example) the purpose of life on Earth is to go through experiences that are impossible in the spirit world, such as sickness, death, riches, poverty, a political hierarchy, jail, slavery, etc.


Regarding the knowledge that the spirit world has regarding ideological tendencies and earthly preoccupations it would be unthinkable that they would not know what is coming in the future, such as humanity developing the capacity to survive indefinitely by technological advances such as the ones proposed for the year 2045.


So, spirits that reincarnate and incarnate towards that year (or whereabouts), may have this planned as a challenge towards the lifestyle that would come with this technology.

But, such a migration (done laws euthanasia related) will not be executed until unavoidable death time of interested individual.

CFTraveler
11th May 2013, 04:47 PM
Can't really argue with that, Angel. Now I understand your positive reaction to this possibility.

-asalantu-
11th May 2013, 06:15 PM
Can't really argue with that, Angel. Now I understand your positive reaction to this possibility.

¡Hi, CFTraveler!

I'm not a coward that fears and try to escape from a secure death; never mind what technological resource be put in exercise against it, material death will reach all us.

But, if the possibility exists, I'll do anything in order to assure physical survival. After all, if we are here (living at this planet) is not in order to lose our time with materialistic interests but to develop spiritual virtues that allow us to perform certain tasks evolution related.

I cannot quote wich are such tasks, I'm not mature yet in order to identify them. With time I'll do...

Anyway, 30 years rests even and I'm only crawling. Meanwhile, anything unfortunate could happen and truncate my goals.


NOTE/QUESTIONS:

1 - As for your worry of being linked to a robot forever with voluntary death forbide, ¿is reasonable that rising Kundalini and reaching you Higher Self will be possible to drive our own death?

2 - Done an intelligent scanning machine able of to assimilate human knowledge ¿what could be reaction of such a machine once discovers, psychic/spiritual experiences like OBE, Kundalini rising, etc. at scanned mind? ¿May be to merge with an biological structure in order to experience them? ¿Or are such experiences proper of all form of intelligence, never mind if artificial or natural type?

Sincerely,
Ángel