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Murraya
13th July 2006, 10:47 AM
I'm into two chairs (frenche xpression sorry :wink: )
Do we have to answer to pain with pain, hate with hate, attack with destruction??

Or is it better (but certainly harder) to find a key to transmute, as an alchemyst would do, those negs into light...

This one kalo and i are talking about, i heard that it was prisonner from cycles and times, and antoher personn saw it with a chain that seems aweaken...so she thought we should try to make this chain stronger but actually i was trying to deliver him to the light....
Lots of people use astral knives, specially consecrated for those fights
Your point of view?

Murraya
13th July 2006, 12:41 PM
This is a sensitive thing i'm going to say but killing is karma (and even if i hate black mail such as be carefull with your karma, i suppose at least the consequences should be herad after!!!)

Kalonek
13th July 2006, 01:30 PM
I thought about it lately and opened PPSD randomly a few times to see if I could find some advices from Robert Bruce. I don't have the exact quotation but in a few words he explained in one part of the book that we could only send an earth bound disincarnated spirit back to light, and not real demons that have been predators for milenaries.

Murraya
13th July 2006, 03:07 PM
So no problem with killing?

Tom
13th July 2006, 11:51 PM
So far I've only heard of it in Eastern traditions that a demon can be turned away from doing harm. The method involves holding them in place and forcing them to listen to positive ideas and religious texts.

elendal
14th July 2006, 12:22 PM
My view, if it's any worth, is that by killing others you also damage yourself. But there are times when you may fight for your (or someone else's) life, and it's a matter of choice whether you'll damage yourself, or you (or someone else) will die. It's not much different from real life events, like wars. Will you kill your fellow men, or will you die (and your family and your countrymen, in the worst case)?

Each situation is different. In some you'll fight till the end. In some you'll let go, and you'll die knowing that is the right thing to do.

Fortunately, in most cases it's not a matter of life and death, and you can usually avoid contacts with the wrong kind of beings. It's when they persist that calls for the tough dicision. Both angels and demons are conscious beings, you know...

Regarding "delivering to the light", it's again my opinion that any force excersised on another being, regardless of your (presumed) intention, is still a force. I bet the christian missionaries who enforced christianity upon indians were convinced they were "delivering the savages to the light"...

DAN
14th July 2006, 01:55 PM
Elendal

How is dieing the right thing to do?


Dan

CFTraveler
14th July 2006, 05:10 PM
Elendal

How is dieing the right thing to do?


Dan
I am of course presuming, since I don't really know what Elendal is talking about, but if I had the option of, say, being tied to tubes to keep my body alive and be a burden to my family who needs to keep themselves alive with the money spent on it, then I would choose to die (if it were my choice). But then again, who knows?

14th July 2006, 05:39 PM
What makes everyone so sure that zapping a negative entity with light kills it? Perhaps it is zapped to another place or dimension? If energy can't be destroyed...

About "delivering to the light"...now and again I do spirit releasements in my work. I don't force any spirit to go to the light. I discuss it with them and explain what the light is. They are usually confused and unhappy, but once they are respected and understand what's happening to them and the harm they are doing, they almost always choose to move on to the Light. For the most part, these are disembodied humans. I've had a very few that I wasn't sure exactly what they were, but it works the same.

elendal
15th July 2006, 07:07 AM
Elendal
How is dieing the right thing to do?
Dan
I am of course presuming, since I don't really know what Elendal is talking about, but if I had the option of, say, being tied to tubes to keep my body alive and be a burden to my family who needs to keep themselves alive with the money spent on it, then I would choose to die (if it were my choice). But then again, who knows?
You are presuming correctly. The simplest example of dieing as a right thing to do is sacrificing your life for the others. And I mean really making that decision.

Like in a battle, you know that it's very important that your fellow soldiers escape from the enemy's attack, and rules of engagement require that retreat cover must be provided. However, you know that the chances of staying alive for the ones who stay to provide the cover are very slim, and you choose to die helping others.

I'm presuming here that you and your fellow warriors are not organized in a chain-of-command system like the armies of today, thus being obliged to follow the orders to stay behind. I'm talking of a group of independant warriors, coinscious of their choices and the impacts of those choices.


"They are usually confused and unhappy, but once they are respected and understand what's happening to them and the harm they are doing, they almost always choose to move on to the Light."
That's the right thing to do. You treat them like living beings they are (albeit, not physical anymore), and they feel it and know to appreciate it.

15th July 2006, 06:12 PM
IMO, it really depends on the situation, as each situation is different. It would be wrong to apply a blanket judgement; that all negs should be destroyed. Seems to me, one has to spend some time thinking about the situation, evaluating it, trying to look at it from as many perspectives as possible then come to decide on a course of action that would reap the most benefit for all concerned.

If I had the ability to destroy these things, I can't lie, I've been so plagued by them part of me is like "Hell yes, why not?", but, I also understand where this is coming from. In my heart, I see destruction as a last resort. If I had this ability, I would do my best to try all other methods available first.

This is not a popular view, but sometimes, some negs can really teach one a lot about one's self and sometimes the end result is that one comes out the other end stronger for it. There are also situations where their attacks do more harm than good. So, in my view, it really does depend on the person or persons involved, the neg, and the potential outcomes. These things need to be evaluated on an individual basis.

This is just how I see it now, and as always, could change as I become more aware and informed. :)

EDIT : When I say destroy, I mean changed to no longer be what they were, be it through absorbtion, changed via fire, etc.

Murraya
17th July 2006, 09:42 AM
I agree with the fact that energy can't be killed, only transmuted but how?
And if it's true, then why those astral knives and weapons?

Otherwise I suppose for each situation there's an answer, and being the instrument of God, maybe helps choosing the right thing at the right moment....

Thanks for your answers :D

elendal
17th July 2006, 01:42 PM
This may be somewhat hard to explain, but I'll give it a try.

It is my understanding that living beings are energy structures. It goes for us as well as for non-physical beings. Every structure consists of building blocks, and it is in the connections between the blocks that the feeling of self-awarness originates. By using "astral knives", you simply create a new energy structure which can be used to "cut" another energy structure.

It's quite possible to kill another energy structure by "cuting" the right connections. The energy stays, but once there are no more connections between the building blocks of energy, that wich remains no longer has a sense of self-awarness and can be seen as "dead" energy (just an expression, dead energy doesn't really exist).

My understanding comes from my point of view on the world as a whole, so you may be interested to read it here:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=55237

I was personally under attack of some beings in my dreams, and I new (I don't know how, I just new) how to kill them. They produced a very strong feeling of panic in me, and I knew beyond a shadow of doubt that if I didn't deal with them they would keep coming back.

They retreated for several years, and came back again. I killed another one, and they haven't appeared for quite some time. Or maybe they have, but they don't produce that feeling of panic in me, so I don't feel so much treatened as before... The situation changed.

Murraya
17th July 2006, 03:36 PM
Thank you Elendal...I insist, even if you told me about your fear, but have you ever tried something else like power of love... :?: :?

violetsky
18th July 2006, 02:48 AM
Dear Murraya,

Well, it might be good to have more than two chairs on this.

When people attack us physically, or verbally what are we suppose to do? Well, it hugely depends on the situation does it not? It depends on the intensity of the attack among many other things. Ideally we would like to shield ourselves and escape and avoid this situation ever again. At the next level we would fight but only defensively. It is an incredibly intense and severe situation where one would contemplate offensive fighting, but personally I would never want to do it out of anger but rather out of the hope that the other person would stop their attack and never return. In yet other situations what can stop a physical attack is lack of fear and turning to the person and sending them love that shocks and confuses them. In yet other cases in the streets of a big city imagine you accidentally end up in a back alley. A big show of force might cause potential villians to run for the hills.

Now lets bring lots of different physical scenerios and bring them to the energetic level. Unfortunately mankind is not yet aware of how much impact their thoughts have. The worst fighting and warfare is at the mental/energetic level between people these days. Negative thoughts (consciousness) can move energy in the harshest ways. Most people do not realize that their anger and hatred are like energetic knives. Usually, attacking someone who is energetically attacking you can sometimes make matters worse because people do not realize what is going on and do not learn for energetic attacks. It only increases their negativity and potentially makes them attack you more often.

As for entities, that can be a different story. Sometimes a show of force can potentially scare off an entity that might think you are an easy target or victum. So, why sit on two chairs. Bring a hundred or more chairs in. There are infinite shades of grey to almost anything...depending on the infinite variations of situation. :wink: That's my thought about your very interesting question.

Many high level healers attempt to do transmutation. Now....that might seem like death to a negative entity....to the healer they are transforming the negative energy and consciousness of the entity into light....reprogramming. This can become an incredible battle of wills if one is not careful and not for the faint of heart not for the beginner. Now is transmutation fighting? It would not seem so to the healer (instead just a reprogramming) but to the entity it would likely be seen as the ultimate attack. We all fight to preserve our thought programs - good or bad....n'est pas?

Very Best Wishes to ya,
violetsky

wstein
18th July 2006, 04:31 AM
Destroy them because its the human thing to do. Humans are in a place of fear. The first solution to any problem is to destroy the bad thing. Sometimes the bad thing is themselves.

If you are willing to be other than pure human, do what best expresses who you are. A few Negs are persistent and will keep at it until you or they are 'dead'.

I don't see any difference in principle between destroying Negs and transmuting them and sending them to the light. You can't change anyone else (even Negs), you can only change yourself.

Note that I am not recommending letting them pester you.

At a certain level of experience, your options are really limited. There are many options but only if you possess the capabilities to back it up.

elendal
18th July 2006, 07:26 AM
I agree with everything violetsky and wstein said. Those are also my thoughts.

I haven't tried to use "the power of love" simply because it was a battle of life and death to me.

That reminds me of an event that happened just recently. I read about it in the newspapers, but I don't remember in what country it happened.

One of the cows being prepared for the slaughter house succeeded in escaping. She ran for over a mile before the persuers were able to encircle her. The cow chose to ram her head through the wall in order to not be captured again.

If you really think about it, do you think that sending love to the catchers would help that cow one bit? It was a battle of life and death, and when the cow saw death cannot be escaped, she chose her death.

That was the situation she found herself in...

Murraya
18th July 2006, 10:26 AM
I heard well, thanks to you all to take time to answer...that's an important point to me.

I have news today, but i'm waiting for a friend of mine to give me explanation before telling you the whole thing....


Anyway, he did something that worked on me: fight or not?? What i felt was not a fight, it was sweet, but probably hi did somehting strong. I'll tell you...

Demek
18th July 2006, 11:49 AM
i want to back up elendal in the way to kill them
you kill the program, the brain itself by severing connections, although i didn't always do it with astral knives
i saw it in my minds eye, and i willed it to fall apart with force, and then i was left with dead energy body

i also reconstructed their consciousness several times, they usually run away at that point, depending if i reconstructed their memory of death, some attacked me and then i send them to light (i am shifting, but occasionally i kill out of habit before i start thinking, then "revive" using the dispersing energy, some have soul to rebuild on (soul is beyond my means))

(this is past life knowledge and ability though, and it requires contacting a spirit domain in my case as i discovered, so i'll never use it again)
i think i killed some discarnate spirits on several occasions, since i didn't sieve through to watch out, a nuisance is a nuisance, a threat is a threat

now i invoke Holy Spirit and send them to light

note: during my beginnings i forcefully infused one "very" dark entity with so much light that it blow up into pieces and died
this wasn't "loving" them, but rather BE AND THINK THIS AND THAT, NOW i kinda used my will WAY too much not so long ago

i also learned a new way with blades that i succesfully used, this requires targeting and destroying death spots (if any) in the consciousness that are so important that the consciousness dies, some needed several hits and/or cleaves

i lost me (freudian, i'll leave as it is) mental respect for human (any) life when i understood what consciousness is, don't see any reason why i shouldn't kill
it's like pulling the head out of the lego toy

and then there is God and loving, but i have still don't know how much to go to fully embody that, i feel that i shouldn't kill but heal, but still can't understand why, just do so for the time

i think and feel that some discarnate spirits are shell, what is left of personality but without soul (and some are ensouled still), if without light they turn predatory when they hit the breaking point of not processing enough energy to withstand withering away
if it is so i would gladly kill myself after death, i don't want to "live" that way, and you can't incarnate, it is the soul is incarnating into new "self" babies are born with (don't know how i know this)
but PHG has more experience, so i ask the above question to you

elendal
19th July 2006, 07:14 AM
It is interesting how you described the way you kill them: "it's like pulling the head out of the lego toy". That is exactly how I did it. I detached their "heads" from their "bodies".

I understand your point when you say that you lost your respect for human life. After gaining some knowledge (in whatever way) people tend to lose the perspective, or what some call "the big picture". At that point, if one doesn't have enough self-control, it's easy to make the wrong turn.

There is one reason I find useful for not killing when it's not absolutely neccessary. There are forces (energy structures) that are way much more complex than us, and they will treat us just like we treat the simpler structures. Like animals, for example.

What you do to others, others will do to you. Or... "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Sounds familiar? The man knew what he was talking about.

It's also interesting how you described blowing up that dark entity. It's something I also did on one occasion, but to *myself*.

I was having either a dream or OBE. I was flying around in some dark world. I flew past an old woman (I always see other beings either as people or animals), and she said to me "May God give you long life". I don't know why she said that. Then I reached a group of beings playing some kind of game that reminded me of soccer. I landed not far from them and watched them play. Then one of them noticed me and approached me. He said "I accomplished inner peace a long time ago". That statement and the feeling of that being filled me with love for them. I started filling myself with light and love, and I felt myself inflating until I exploded in a burst of light. Then I woke up.

It took several months before I was able to dream/OBE again. I suppose my astral body was done for and another one had to be created.

Coming to think of it, were you the guy who approached me...? ;)

I may not be able to help you, but I can quote something I read in one of Castaneda's books: "We must have something we could die for before we can think that we have something to live for. If you have nothing to die for, how can you claim that you have something to live for? The two go hand in hand, with death at the helm".

I really don't have any specific knowledge of what I'm about to say, but it's something that I feel, and have felt for a long time. We who are able to kill are here for a reason. The only thing that I can think of that justifies our being here, is a state of war. We may not even be aware of it, but it may be quite possible there's a war going on right now, and we are warriors taking part in that war. I've had several dreams (OBEs?) of such nature. I've described them here:
http://helendagner.com/viewtopic.php?t=1109

Don't judge a book by the cover, they say... I don't see your ability (or mine for that matter) as something wrong in its very nature. It is how it's used that defines a being.

Lordofthebunnies
23rd July 2006, 01:59 PM
Thing about destroying negs is, from what I've observed and heard from people, they have a tendency to come back. I think people sometimes confuse physical destruction with astral destruction.

IMO, if you're cornered and know of no other means out, fighting can be the only option.

But over time, better non-aggresive methods can probably be learned.