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IA56
22nd May 2014, 06:09 AM
There was a very rich man, he had many servants and did own big land, so he was often a target of thiefs..who did steel his crops and animals like chikens and eggs because they where hungry and pore...so one day a sevant did Catch a man steeling...and he took it to the land lord...he was a brutal man...he said...hung him so he will learn a lesson...
this did repete several time....but one day the land lord did die...and did stand infront of the pearly gateīs of heaven...and he did feel stressed when remembering his own harsness on Earth....he did fear of the judgement...He hear a strong voice ....Forgive him so he will learn a lesson...:-)

Love
ia

eyeoneblack
24th May 2014, 05:57 PM
?? So forgiveness is the best way to teach your adversary a lesson? Which is to say if the rich man hadn't hung the first thief, let him go, other thieves would not have pilfered his riches?

Just a little confused. From Les Miserable Jean-Claude (?) was forgiven for stealing. That was a powerful thing, but where the transgression is repeated again and again I don't see how forgiving one would effect the rest.

CFTraveler
24th May 2014, 06:33 PM
Forgiveness is the ability to stop drinking the poison. That's all.
How it affects another person should never be the object, because then it defeats itself. Anything else isn't forgiveness, it's enmeshment.

......In My Opinion....

eyeoneblack
24th May 2014, 08:36 PM
;)

LPCF
24th May 2014, 08:44 PM
Perhaps we are forgetting that this thread started with a story that was meant to be a joke, or rather a semi-humorous paradox? I think (I could be wrong, of course) that IA's joke consists in the last few words: "Forgive him so he will learn a lesson". The words should not be taken literally, as eyeoneblack has done, but as a paradox which is trying to tell is something.

It is perhaps a little like the Bhuddist koan (some great ones at http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html). I think CFT has got the spirit of IA's "joke" perfectly.

IA56
25th May 2014, 05:39 AM
Yes both CFT and LPCF and thank you :-)
Richard, I am sure it happens that way as the joke tells us..(when it is told as a joke it is easier for us to open up to its deeper meaning and we can let it sink in better)...we have all only as an potential in us and has to be activated, then we can start to practis ..and many timeīs we have to have several profound forgivness Before we really understand.
This man was rich and did have many opportunities to practis mercy and help many pore, heīs means wouldnīt have bean more lesser if he now and then have given for free some chikens and some loafs of bread to the hungry poor people of his own Town, but NO he did hung them all....and yes he had to be chocked by profound mercy for his potential to be activated in him, so he can start to feel otherīs feelings too, how they felt whom he did not give one ounce of mercy upon...
And yes Richard eventually you will get this...maybe you do not yet remember a deeper profound mercy bean given upon you, or a profound forgivness for that matter....but it will come to you rememberance I am sure, and you do then understand what you did not agrea upon Before but have not yet come back to dissuss further eighder..(about revelation is not reciprocal, it proceeds from GOD to you but not from you to GOD)...so yes this is my deepest and profund undestanding, and I do know that all is forgiven in the end..(my empirical experience on the dividerline between duality and Onesess or eternity)...and as quicker I do remember then I also will understand the Atonament and the deepest meaning of it too...and that the GOD has nothing to do with this World and also the separation never happened....but all must come to an rememberance on a very very Deep level...than all is very clear and easy :-)

Love
ia

eyeoneblack
25th May 2014, 05:06 PM
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. And, LPCF, it is the nature of that paradox that causes me to stumble one way and another. Ia, you say the rich man could have been generous to everyone at no cost to himself - he would remain rich all the same. I'm not very satisfied with that. First of all, my belief is that a rich mam is an ignorant man. It is ignorance that inspires a man to build up treasure on Earth and I wrestle a bit with my feelings of superiority to wealthy people. I'm sure there is some measure of defensiveness in that emotion. I feel that it is my nature to be a common man, you know, salt of the earth. And from that perspective I see that I am wealthy indeed.

It's your story that bothered me, Ia. As far as parables go, I just don't like it. So the rich man dies and reflects on his harshness and cruelty and I suppose he begs for forgiveness. I presume he remains as ignorant as ever but only now (at the Pearly Gates) he is contrite and at the mercy of the Greatest Power. He stands, at last, in the shoes of the humble poor he so mistreated. Alright, but what have we learned? A friend of mine posted elsewhere a verse that made the point that unless you have walked in another person's shoes be not quick to judge. I commented that this understanding is the beginning of the Grace of Forgiveness. Grace is the important word there.

Ia made the point that maybe I haven't known the Grace of Forgiveness sufficiently enough to understand her - that my day would come when I would understand the same as her. I actually believe I already do, but our histories are way different. I cannot feel exactly the same emotion as she when reflecting on Forgiveness. I have to abstract more or less to put myself 'in her shoes'.

The bit of the story that stuck in my craw was the repeated assaults of the hungry poor against the rich ignorant man. The holocaust flashed through my mind. I have never understood how millions of Jews obeyed passively every instruction from the wearing of yellow stars of David so they are easily recognized to cueing up and walking starved and naked like so many sheep into the gas chambers.

I can sum this feeling up I suppose like this; I'll turn my cheek once, but not again to the same insult.

Thanks for helping me ponder this question. :)

IA56
25th May 2014, 05:47 PM
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. And, LPCF, it is the nature of that paradox that causes me to stumble one way and another. Ia, you say the rich man could have been generous to everyone at no cost to himself - he would remain rich all the same. I'm not very satisfied with that. First of all, my belief is that a rich mam is an ignorant man. It is ignorance that inspires a man to build up treasure on Earth and I wrestle a bit with my feelings of superiority to wealthy people. I'm sure there is some measure of defensiveness in that emotion. I feel that it is my nature to be a common man, you know, salt of the earth. And from that perspective I see that I am wealthy indeed.

It's your story that bothered me, Ia. As far as parables go, I just don't like it. So the rich man dies and reflects on his harshness and cruelty and I suppose he begs for forgiveness. I presume he remains as ignorant as ever but only now (at the Pearly Gates) he is contrite and at the mercy of the Greatest Power. He stands, at last, in the shoes of the humble poor he so mistreated. Alright, but what have we learned? A friend of mine posted elsewhere a verse that made the point that unless you have walked in another person's shoes be not quick to judge. I commented that this understanding is the beginning of the Grace of Forgiveness. Grace is the important word there.

Ia made the point that maybe I haven't known the Grace of Forgiveness sufficiently enough to understand her - that my day would come when I would understand the same as her. I actually believe I already do, but our histories are way different. I cannot feel exactly the same emotion as she when reflecting on Forgiveness. I have to abstract more or less to put myself 'in her shoes'.

The bit of the story that stuck in my craw was the repeated assaults of the hungry poor against the rich ignorant man. The holocaust flashed through my mind. I have never understood how millions of Jews obeyed passively every instruction from the wearing of yellow stars of David so they are easily recognized to cueing up and walking starved and naked like so many sheep into the gas chambers.

I can sum this feeling up I suppose like this; I'll turn my cheek once, but not again to the same insult.

Thanks for helping me ponder this question. :)

Dear Richard,
The deepest meaning of the story is that when you really do understand the grace of forgivness then you will not repeat the same assault over and over again...when the Attonament is undestood you will be part of it and have no-more to ever to turn the other cheek because you are fullfilled so to speak, and have learned your lesson :-)
As I feel you are in a loop and I hope you can come out of it and see it from a new angel :-)

Love
ia

eyeoneblack
25th May 2014, 06:12 PM
As I feel you are in a loop and I hope you can come out of it and see it from a new angel :-)


I believe I truly am 'in a loop' recently. Been questioning my 'aging' brain. Getting a little fed up with myself lately. :( Why am I so defensive these days? Oh well, I'll work it out eventually. :)

One thing; I read up on world news a while back and it upset me quite a bit. I'm still upset.

eyeoneblack
25th May 2014, 07:08 PM
So, I picked up my book and went to bookmark and this is what I read:

"Some church clock striking loudly the hour roused him up, but before he went downstairs he paced the floor to and fro several times. And when he forced himself out of that empty room it was with a profound disgust of all he was going to see and hear, a momentary repulsion towards the claims of the world... [Joseph Conrad]

Yeah, that's the way I feel!

IA56
25th May 2014, 07:30 PM
So, I picked up my book and went to bookmark and this is what I read:

"Some church clock striking loudly the hour roused him up, but before he went downstairs he paced the floor to and fro several times. And when he forced himself out of that empty room it was with a profound disgust of all he was going to see and hear, a momentary repulsion towards the claims of the world... [Joseph Conrad]

Yeah, that's the way I feel!

So sorry to hear you feel this way, but you have to free you from the world....it has nothing to do with you...do you have any hunch or clue your purpous of this life...the reason you did come here this time??
I am here to understand the human conditions and understand Atonement and forgivness...I am starting to get a grip of it...and it does not mean I can live it...but it is a start at least :-)

Love
ia