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susan
20th August 2014, 08:34 PM
I try not to watch the news as it is always depressing but at the same time I live in this world and need to converse with people on a daily basis so need to show some knowledge as to what is going on.
I feel sickened to my stomach at pictures I have just seen.
This business of humans evolving from animals. I can not for one second believe that a beautiful new born baby coming to this earth with a spirit from the spirit world would come with such a plan to learn and experience what I have just witnessed.
Where did it all go wrong? I hope it is the case that so many people just make an absolute disaster of their experience .( maybe I have in past lives! I have no wish to recall if I have!)
But I wonder if it is possible for lower animal spirits to somehow by accident be reincarnated as a human. I wonder if they have a guide? But then if so, if our guides maybe our other selves then if the above is the case their guide would still be of a lower energy and the killing animal instinct would still be there.
Just a thought. There minds are at such a lower animal ,killing , hunger, revenge, stage I cannot recognise these as a species I belong to .

Lionheart
20th August 2014, 09:28 PM
I believe "consciousness" can embody itself here in the physical in any form. Once here it has to use the intelligence capacity that the chosen form has. As in the size of the brain will limit it to the experiences can have.

Once again, we have come here to experience "everything" we can. A bug that dies due to a Human stomping on it, is still a experience. I believe that these would be the very last things on the list that a totally "evolved consciousness" would want to experience.

We tend to think that a totally happy, loving, carefree soul living in a good area, surrounded by great friends and family, is really the more evolved soul. But I disagree. I think the soul/consciousness that chose to incarnate in a area where disease and famine are common place and they have to live each day as a struggle, would be the more evolved one or maybe the one that decided to incarnate into a "broken" body that already had a expiration date nearing would be as well. At least those things would be the last or near the last on my list of things to experience here.

If you were a new soul coming here for the first time, wouldn't you choose a life of bliss and blessings for your first time? If I indeed did have a choice, I know I would! :wink:

What we are witnessing right now in the World can be known as "Pack Mentality" aka the "Collective Consciousness" at work. One on one, there is no threat. A gang/group of "rioters" or "insurgents" is another story. :(

It's a shame we couldn't utilize all that "energy" for good though!

CFTraveler
20th August 2014, 09:33 PM
I think you're doing a disservice to animals. Animals never seek to hurt or cause pain, humans do. I don't think we're at the 'apex' of any kind of evolution because evolution isn't a progressive thing, I think we're the same as animals no matter what everyone wants to believe.

Lionheart
20th August 2014, 10:44 PM
I think you're doing a disservice to animals. Animals never seek to hurt or cause pain, humans do. I don't think we're at the 'apex' of any kind of evolution because evolution isn't a progressive thing, I think we're the same as animals no matter what everyone wants to believe.
I don't know if your comment here was directed at my post or not. But I don't think we are above any other living being at all. My post was about "evolving consciousness", not an "evolution", as in evolving from other animals, life forms, etc.

I believe that experiencing life through the eyes all forms is what leads to a evolving consciousness.

CFTraveler
21st August 2014, 01:12 PM
It wasn't aimed at you, it was at the way the sentiment was phrased in the original post. It read "There(sic) minds are at such a lower animal ,killing , hunger, revenge, stage I cannot recognise these as a species I belong to ." Animals do not exact revenge, they do not hate. They eat like we do, compete like we do. Except they do it without malice. We are the species that is capable of malice. This not make us more evolved spiritually, it makes us capable of doing much more harm to each other and the planet.

susan
21st August 2014, 06:04 PM
Yes CFT, I have done animals an injustice. I take on board what your saying completely. I could find and still can find no sensible explanation as to why and what kind of person would do what I saw. To all the loving and not so loving animals out there I take back my words. Humans are very very dangerous.
Lionheart,
Non of us whilst alive will ever know how evolved we are ( and to be honest I can see no benefit in knowing) but with all of the suffering in the world in large masses if everyone chose this to be their final learning experience we'd run out of returnees.
However to lighten the topic I'm sending out my request to upstairs that my next one I want to be a
FISH. Swimming in beautiful warm waters amongst the beautiful corals and colours, not needing much to eat, not having to go out to work, not having to do any washing or ironing just floating along, hiding behind a rock when I want to relax and just sailing long.
Learning experience?? Cann't think of one . Just being a fish I suppose.

ButterflyWoman
21st August 2014, 06:28 PM
I could find and still can find no sensible explanation as to why and what kind of person would do what I saw.
Very damaged people. Lots of things can go wrong in the development of a human being, including things biological, psychological, emotional, physical, all of it. Some people become so damaged and they adopt such twisted perspectives that they act in ways that are unfathomable to most people.

CFTraveler
22nd August 2014, 12:11 PM
Being a fish sounds cool. I think I'll sign up for that too.

LPCF
22nd August 2014, 07:11 PM
Susan, I am glad that you have retracted your views about animals being "lower". Otherwise, my reply would have extended to several pages and would probably have been edited by CFT or BW, LOL! So I will be as brief as I can.

As has been pointed out already, many despicable acts carried out by humans are not part of animal behaviour. For example, a long time ago I read an article about a gang of teenagers kicking and abusing an elderly person in the street, just for fun. There was a comment by someone featured in the article; it was to the effect that "they behaved like a load of animals". But animals wouldn't do such a thing - only humans! Some animals are gentle vegetarians (e.g. rabbits). Some kill other animals - but only for food, never out of malice.

So in terms of ethics, humans have some way to go and animals have not reached the depths of depravity that, sadly, a minority of humans have. As for animal communication, animal spirituality, animal intelligence....I could write pages, full of links to evidence. But it would take us beyond the topic of this thread. However, I am willing to discuss these issues with you by PM, if you so wish. Also, we often forget that we humans are animals, too!

But I would like to answer your real question: why do some humans reach the depths of brutality and depravity, examples of which you have seen on the news? The answer lies in our state of amnesia whilst in our physical body (or in the case of some people, partial amnesia). If you don't understand what I mean, the works of Michael Newton will explain. He was a famous hypnotist, a firm sceptic, who one day suddenly heard one of his patients under deep hypnosis talk about life between lives. He was shocked by what had heard, as he had previously dismissed anything like that as nonsense. He then devoted the rest of his working life to researching what happens to us between physical lives, using deep hypnotism.

Basically his research shows that when we reincarnate, we have the memories of our previous experiences (physical and astral) temporarily removed. This is so that we can exercise free will and learn new lessons without previous experiences interfering and constraining us. You can call this "deliberate spiritual amnesia", if you like.

So far, so good....but our human brains are ego centred (I want this, I want that). So some people take this to the x degree and want to commit (and actually commit) the most terrible acts. Only a few people go this far, since most of us have a very faint memory (hidden in our subconscious) of our life on the astral between lives, and this acts as a brake on our actions. We all have that "That wouldn't be right..." feeling sometimes. That is our soul cautioning us; you can call it Higher Self, conscience, whatever you like, but the effect is the same. But some people, sadly, do not listen or cannot hear this voice of conscience. Hence they do what they want, which might include all sorts of despicable, cruel acts.

Why are non-human animals not like that? The reason is that they function primarily using their instincts. Humans, however, feel the need to rationalise everything and many have lost this basic contact with the Universe. This leads to a few humans taking ego to its extreme and wishing to harm others for gain or pleasure, or both.

I hope that the above helps to answer your question. Some people may not agree with me, but the above is my sincere attempt to answer what you asked.

Best wishes to you, Susan!

susan
22nd August 2014, 07:40 PM
LPCF, over the few years I've been on this forum you've always shown your love and knowledge of the animals we may bring up in topic on this forum . You have a special understanding.
I enter a house and a dog will come up to me and I give them more attention than the person I'm there to visit. I could kiss then to death. ( in fact I got a bad rash a few months ago after letting a gorgeous dog lick me all over on the face. ( few hours before I could wash , damage done)
So why did I compare what I had witnessed to animals?????
I don't know. Maybe this was without rationalising everything my most programmed thought ( animal to human) came as I had no intelligent answer.

Please don't think bad of me , I love animals and yes. I feel ashamed to have compared.
Maybe the chopped fingers from my hand ( journal) has a relevance.
Once again what we get can have double meanings.

LPCF
22nd August 2014, 08:46 PM
Oh dear, Susan, I would never wish to upset anyone! I could see from your text that it was just a passing thought. My main purpose in posting was to try to answer your real question about why some people act so cruelly.

I have read your posts since you joined, and know you to be a person of insight and goodness. I have just commented on your journal entry, too. Be of good heart!

dontco
23rd August 2014, 09:06 AM
Dear Susan, I would like to tell you a story that my psychology teacher has told me about one of her patients:
There was this lady who had abusive parents who hit her as a child and she swore to herself that when she grows up- she will never ever lay a finger on her children, since she knew what it felt like to be abused.
The years went by- and one day she decided to bring a child to the world (and became a single mother). The thing is- when the baby turned two, she started screaming, crying making riots (what is described as "the terrible twos"). Now, this lady, who knew nothing in her life but hitting didn't know WHAT to do. She just stood there, in front of a screaming two year old, looking at her go. Her instinct told her she should hit the girl, because that was the only solution she knew about when a child was behaving badly. That was parenting to her- because that was what she had learned from her parents as a child. That was the one and only way for her. That is why she went to my teacher (who is a psychologist) for advice- because she didn't know any other type of parenting but abusing the child.

Luckily, my teacher had helped her and gave her techniques for copying but there are many humans out there who don't know how to behave differently but what they have been thaught. Plus, we must remember, as humans, IMH, there is not really "good" and "bad", as we put it. There are only our interpretations of what is good or bad and a lot of times- it changes between different cultures.
Finally, I would like to finish up with the words of Seth from the Seth series- "would you call a flower stupid?" as it always makes me think. We won't call of flower stupid for growing in a specific direction- it is the only way it knows how to. And so, I believe, every person does the best they can from their own point of view- as they don't know how to act differently. This phrase (about the flower) has really helped me overcome some rough times in my life.

Namaste!

susan
23rd August 2014, 08:49 PM
Thank you Dontco, I understand what you are saying.
This reminds me of when I was newly married and used to visit my husband's family abroad when we were in our early 20s .
Wonderful memories but a late sister-in-law had a family of 10 children. Therefore the care of each was also the responsibility of the older children over the youngers. We would witness the parent 's frustration over the actions of the elder with a slap of the head. Minutes later the elder would slap the head of a younger when they stepped out of line. Later that one would slap the head of the even younger one. This went on as a domino effect. But this was forgotten by the end of the day because it caused them tears at the time but they took this as punishment for whatever they had done. Tomorrow was another day.
At first I was shocked at this but started to see it as they saw it. ( in fact on reflection it is recalled with sympathetic humour .( if there's such a description)
In my early years of marriage this happened to me a few times in public. Embarrassing at the time and tearful.
Because I loved him so much and had witnessed the behaviour beforehand of the accepted family behaviour I kept it quiet.We passed this stage.
37 years later he would never dream of touching me in that way and I love him to death. He has turned out to be the most caring, loving, thoughtful, hard working person I could wish to be married to.
So what I'm saying here is not that this is acceptable behaviour, but like your example, yes, there is often a reason behind it.

heliac
26th August 2014, 05:05 AM
Just a thought. There minds are at such a lower animal ,killing , hunger, revenge, stage I cannot recognise these as a species I belong to .

Sometimes i think some animals could stand to benefit from doing more of some of the "lower" mind states you mention. We already know elephants demonstrate behaviors that we would call revenge. It's not uncommon for elephants to seek out and destroy villages and villagers/poachers who have killed them and their babies. Elephants, Gorillas and Dolphins could potentially benefit from violent revenge on poachers.

If the revenge that animals enact imposes a cost on people like poachers that ends up being a deterrent, even if it is slight, they will benefit from it.Hopefully we will start to see more of that type of behavior end up in the animal's gene pool.

Dreamweaver
26th August 2014, 05:25 AM
Chimpanzees and dolphins have been observed doing some very human hurtful behavior, including harrassment, rape - chimps have been observed hunting killing and eating rival chimp troops. I don't know that they don't feel malice.... or altruism.

My personal belief is the more complex the brain, the more capacity for intelligence, the more capacity for emotion and consciousness, the more capacity for what we label good and evil and all their respective attributes. I think too, that it is possible to recognize intelligence, consciousness, sentience in creatures that are not human.

Consider also - humans are mammals. We are blood and flesh and subject to the same laws of physics as every other thing.