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Seeker of Matter
19th July 2005, 07:21 PM
You thought that I was going to GIVE proof, but no. I am actually asking for it ;)

I am trying to tell some people about astral projection. But they in no way believe me and they say that it is all completely made up by the mind. So I was wondering if there is some sort of proven experiment where people have seen thing in the physical world when in the astral body and then confirmed it when they were awake in their physical body. Like numbers or cards or things in general.
If yes, could somebody provide me with a link to such an experiment (and nothing too massive and complicated if possible)

Thank you :)

johnls1
19th July 2005, 10:44 PM
Im new to all this so what you read is what you get. Hehe.

I recall a thread about cards on here recently. According to things that I have read and been told, actions like reading numbers or letters can be really difficult out of the body. I am not sure why this is. I have read accounts of people reading the time successfully, but variable items like a randomly drawn card presents problems. I am completely unqualified to make statements about science, but I have wondered if the difficulty in reading randomly drawn cards is not in itself a quantum type of problem. Perhaps is a less dense enviroment, "reality" is not so tightly coupled to the result of chance. Kind of like Schrodingers Cat. Any of the 52 cards have(had) potential and maybe when out of the body we are keen to this possibility and find it difficult to see what was chosen instead of the possibilities that did(and still) exist. Maybe a better type of confirmation of Projection would be to remotely verify what one is doing in another location or to describe the layout of a house or building you have never been to. I suppose you could also be asked by someone to describe a piece of furniture in their house that has been there a while and that you have never seen before.

If I find the link to the card thing... Ill post it.

Greatoutdoors
20th July 2005, 07:07 PM
Hi Seeker,

This topic has been discussed in some depth on the AP forums, and I think here as well, but is still worth talking about. But first, I am not holding myself out as an expert! I am just an explorer, like most of us. What I say here are my thoughts on the matter, nothing more.

I think a lot of the experiences we have are "in our head," though that doesn't mean they aren't real. The problem with proof is that the most profound events seem to occur when there is no way you can verify it. My only real-time OBE occurred totally spontaneously and lasted only seconds. I had no time to even consider verifying anything. In fact, I had time only for :shock: :?: :!: and I was back in my body. :(

I can't help wondering if there aren't some folks who have the ability to demonstrate the reality of OBE by the card experiment, but perhaps don't want to do so. If the time comes when I have that kind of control over my experiences, I don't know whether I would let it be known or not. Of course, I don't think I'll have to worry about that decision for awhile! :wink:

Seeker of Matter
20th July 2005, 10:31 PM
Hey I would DIE for some of those links to this topic. It would be nice with some clear verified experiment that really appeals to the metaphysical nihilists (read: geeky people on the hardware forums ;) )

I believe in astral projection. I have read far too many posts about it to seriously doubt it without doubting the integrity of the whole human race..... If everybody here are hallucinating and only "thinks" they are in the astral, their hallucinations seem interestingly alike.

Have anybody ever talked to another projector while out of body where both parts remembered it afterwards?

Is there really any proof at all that it is not just made up by the mind? Have people visited the same astral realms?

Greatoutdoors
21st July 2005, 06:51 PM
Hi Seeker!

Well, I won't ask quite that high a price, but here's goes.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17357 is a link to a FAQ post on AP. That one contains other links that will let you explore related topics.

It is an interesting subject and I hope one day we will be able to prove the existence of OBE and astral travel "quantifiably."

Also, if you run a search on AP with the search term "proof of OBE" you will get several hits. I'm going to try it on astraldynamics and see what happens. If I get what I'm looking for I'll post it here.

As a student of this stuff myself I have little advice to give, just hang in there and things will start happening. I do believe we are right on the edge of some "mind boggling" mental abilities! 8)

Seeker of Matter
22nd July 2005, 12:02 AM
Phew! I can easily conclude one thing, those threads include a lot of letters lol!!!

My blood sugar dropped significantly as I started clawing myself through the third thread about the topic... I now wish for a more effective form of communication as it will take me a lifetime to read through those threads! Couldn’t somebody draw a painting explaining the essence of it all? As far as I know a painting equals a thousand or more words meaning that people should start drawing their replies instead, then everybody could make up precisely their own interpretation and everybody could be happy ;)

But it seems that no real conclusion are made through those massive discussions. The believers and non believers just seem to bash equally hard at each other (especially in the second thread). From my point of view that makes both parts equally false as I feel people are just trying to defend their honour thus the length of the threads.

That Monroe institute, haven't they got a lot of such documented tests as "the card test" that really have been tested thoroughly? It could be great if they would release those results so that we could come near to some objective conclusion whether AP is true from a scientific point of view, and not just a subjective point of view.

Nevertheless it is all dead exciting :)

Jason210
22nd July 2005, 11:07 AM
Solid Proof.

It should be possible to do a controlled experiment to determine whether someone can read something he or see has not physically seen.

If this was possible, surely we'd hear a lot more about it? It would be big news wouldn't it?

Robert Bruce states in the first chapter of his book "Astral Dynamics" that projection is objective rather than subjective, and then goes on to describe a way of proving this to oneself by using a random playing card. I guess the only thing to do here is to trust what he says, until you are capable of testing this for yourself - which seems to me to be a reasonable approach.

Greatoutdoors
22nd July 2005, 07:05 PM
I told ya there were a bunch! :lol:

I agree with Jason that it should be possible to prove the validity of paranormal powers. However, success would depend on being dedicated to the task and having the necessary skill. This whole thing is a learning experience, and the more we study (and do our homework :wink: ) the greater our skills become.

One thing I've been practicing off and on (with singular lack of success so far - :( ) is to get together with someone else, arrange a specific time (making sure to adjust for time zone differences) and try to pick up on an item the other person is viewing and thinking about. You can trade off on who focuses on the object and who tries to pick up what the object is. Success in that effort should make the card experiment in the RTZ a piece of cake! In my opinion, they are both very closely related, just a slightly different focus.

The problem with this proof working is that it is dependent on the skills of both people. So even if one person has plenty of ability, if the other is not yet at that level, they probably won't succeed. If you have a series of failures, it might be best to back up and let the weaker party do more practice, then try again. I am currently doing that practice before trying it again! :)

Is that anything like the proof you are seeking?

Astralsailor
23rd July 2005, 07:55 PM
Well just ask a quantum physicist and i think he might give you a "solid" proof :) There is no physical law dening the existence of "Out" of body experience. Id say if you are able to get them a session to try projecting and if they get it right then voila thats all the proof they will ever need MIND BLOWING ;)

Jason210
23rd July 2005, 10:36 PM
Trouble is with half-baked scientists is that they are often unaware that they have have a belief - a belief in causality. They take this to be the only reality - and they are not likely to part with that easily. They are so convinced of this that they are not even interested in listening to and considering alternative perspectives - on the contrary, they get a buzz out of arguing with the likes of us.

It may well be that the "real-time projected world" is not objective, and if so then the numbers and cards can't be read. In this case there can be no solid proof in an objective sense (ie. to outside observers).

However, you need to explain to the skeptics that failure of this experiment does not prove or disprove anything. It does not mean that what we term "astral projection" does not take place. As Alex said, "when you go out of body, you haven't really "left" anything. ...you have merely shifted your awareness to another part of your existance, in a higher dimension."

In response to this skeptics will say that it's just fantasy or daydreaming or dreaming...

But, the key to it all is understanding the nature of consciousness and awareness. Who am "I"? Who is the observer in this body? Who or what is the dreamer, the experiencer of thoughts and ideas, dreams, imaginings? While we might not be able to answer this, it only takes a little investigation and reason to see that it's not the conscious waking mind, but something more subtle, and deeper. What we experience - dreams, physical events, are quite fluid and temporary, while the experiencer of it all is the common denominator. We don't know what we are, but we know what we are not type thing...

As mentioned, no-one can prove that astral projection does not happen, and this is a strong logical argument against all those who say it's all fake. On what grounds do they say its fake? Ask them for solid proof of that! Ask them why the say that. They have no argument other than "because it can't happen!"

Since we are dealing with a subjective event, the only proof anyone can have is subjective proof. Experience it directly! Then you have all the proof you need. If you don't believe it's possible, and need some encouragement to get started with this, then go and read up and investigate. Be a researcher and look for the truth admidst the testimony - the common links. Astral has be practiced throughout history. There's no smoke without fire. What's it all about?

I think any reasonable, open-minded person, who takes the time to read and research about OBE must admit that there is something in it. People don't sit and make it all up, especially not Tibetian lamas. Why would they?

the voice of silence
30th July 2005, 12:18 AM
Seeker of Matter,

Read up on my post here in OBE Forum:
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=583

I think you'll deffinitely find it interesting for getting close to proof.

Tvos

David Ward
30th July 2005, 03:16 PM
While down the pub I told a very good friend of mine about my own Out of Body Experiences. I think I succeeded... in freaking him out!

I have come to the conclusion that It is incredibly difficult to convince other people about OBE's unless they are receptive to the idea in the first place. :D


David

Joehadenuf-MOH-
31st July 2005, 10:26 AM
While down the pub I told a very good friend of mine about my own Out of Body Experiences. I think I succeeded... in freaking him out!

I have come to the conclusion that It is incredibly difficult to convince other people about OBE's unless they are receptive to the idea in the first place. :D


David


That’s one of the most discouraging things... I deal with all kinds of strange subjects, and trying to talk to people I know about these things is like pulling teeth. It’s not like I can’t express what I intend to say, I believe I’m an adequate communicator, it just seems like they don’t want to know. If there is one thing I have learned, as far as people go, it’s useless to try to push something on someone that doesn’t want to learn or explore possibilities. I agree 100%, the receptive people, (those who are naturally curious, or are already interested in similar matters) are the ones to allude to, that is if you don’t want to regret what you say, or rather, who you say it to.

the voice of silence
1st August 2005, 03:47 AM
Joehadenuf-MOH- or David Ward,

Why push something on people that can't relate or understand astral projection? Its like someone trying to teach us about physics, or learning how to sew, or needlepoint. Not to talk negative about these but its not for everyone.

The best thing that I can think of is just feeling out the person and what there feeling are first with lucid dreams then go on from there..

Tvos