Study Paper

[enoch]

After a few thoughts about MRI this afternoon, followed by some 'googlin', I found this excellent neurological study paper into OBE.

There's a lot to absorb; I've not read it properly myself yet because I wanted to share it with you - that way we can hopefully return in-line with some comments. There's a clever link allowing you to download the 16 pages in pdf format for printing.

Here's the link: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /127/2/243 (http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/127/2/243)

So, what does thee think?


edit: further study by same author: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/550

Whoever wrote that desperately needs to look up in a dictionary the definition of a run-on sentence. :shock:

It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove. Regardless of the science and what it shows, I have a theory that ♥♥♥♥♥s all their theories. :P Even if it is found that disassociation is responsible for OBE experiences and there is some kind of chemical reaction happening to cause this, that doesn't disprove OBE. Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. :D

My theory is that the soul tinkers with the brain/mind to create these experiences. And, if you agree with Robert Monroe, we really don't "go" anywhere, it is all from within. In other words, consciousness (soul) does not have a residence. But, because of it's nature, it is actually working the body/mind as a puppet. It is using consciousness strings to manipulate the puppet. So, some strings would be attached to parts of the physical brain. Sort of like chakras are energetically attached to certain parts of the body. Whatever they might find physically (scientifically), it is still possbile that the soul is controlling things. *mumbles, yeh, yeh, science doesn't recognize the existence of the soul*

[enoch]

yeh yeh :lol:

I read it; all 16 pages and it read like japanese to me. :lol: One needs a thorough knowledge of neurobiological definitions in order to grasp it.

But it does raise issues. With the advent of MRI in the 1990's (so infantile a technique) and PET, I believe it's only a matter of time (isn't it always) before the 'code is cracked' on obe. We're talking maybe 50 years I reckon. I'm discovering more and more interest (through google) from universities. The issue is definately stirring the curiosity of the neuroscientific world.

phg said: Even if it is found that disassociation is responsible for OBE experiences and there is some kind of chemical reaction happening to cause this, that doesn't disprove OBE.

Off course it doesn't disprove obe, but it will explain it. It's quite exciting because people like me (who can't obe) may, in time, be capable of projecting.

phg: It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove

Indeed it does.

[Senheiser]

Eh, can someone simplify this for me? I kept reading untill i tought, wait.... i don't understand a dam. thing....:cry:

Are they saying OBE's are nothing more then illusions coused by some brain activity? Or are they trying to find connection between OBE and neuropsychology. :oops:

[enoch]

Maybe it would be easier to quote from the conclusions:-

In conclusion, we propose a neuroscientific theory that accounts for the three main forms of AP: AS, he-autoscopy and OBE. We argue that these complex illusory reduplications of one’s own body result from a double disintegration in: (i) personal space; and (ii) between personal and extrapersonal space at the TPJ. The unconscious creation of central representation(s) of one’s own body based on proprioceptive, tactile, visual and vestibular information, and their integration with central representations of extrapersonal space is a prerequisite for rapid and effective action in our surroundings. We speculate that significant ambiguous input from these different sensory systems and, especially the vestibular system, are important mechanisms in the intriguing experience of seeing one’s body in a position that does not coincide with the felt position of one’s body.

The problem we face here (as laymen) is understanding the jargon. The fact that there is no peer response to this article is another factor preventing a balanced review. But it's something I'll keep me eyes on in the future.

Another (important) issue raised is the individual's response to obe based on their beliefs and culture. PHG, above, is a good example: if we study her reply in any depth we realise that:-

a) She hasn't read the report thoroughly, but she bounces back confidently with her own set of beliefs which serve to reinforce her worldview. This could be taken as a blind rejection, or a defense, in the face of "opposing" evidence.

b) She writes: It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove which we could deduce as meaning: I do not want them to prove anything.

c) Why?

d) She says: if you agree with Robert Monroe

Phg, in this case, has no problems atall agreeing with Robert Monroe despite the fact that Robert Monroe has never presented any firm evidence for his beliefs. (It sounds like a theory they have yet to prove) Phg, in comparison, has no evidence for her beliefs either, but it may not be a case, in this instance, of neutrally seeking the answers (or the truth of the matter) but more a need to reinforce a "an ideal" worldview. Whilst phg may eagerly read and absorb whole texts by author Robert Monroe, she resists digesting this particular study. Is this a biased response? And why?

?

Any expansion on this, phg?

Here's my response....

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-087.gif


We argue that these complex illusory reduplications of one’s own body result from a double disintegration in: (i) personal space; and (ii) between personal and extrapersonal space at the TPJ.
In other words, it's all in your head (imagination).

Which still doesn't preclude my theory that the soul tinkers with the physiology of the brain. Not to mention that scientists have yet to define or find a residence for consciousness. :P

FYI, Monroe has much Empirical Data. There isn't any branch of science that doesn't include, to some degree, Empirical Data. Although, many scientists would like us to believe the contrary. The world was once flat according to the "scientists" of the day. And, witches were from Satan and should be burned at the stake.

Wikipedia says in regards to Scientific Theory and Paradigm shifts:
Paradigm shifts tend to be most dramatic in sciences that appear to be stable and mature, as in physics at the end of the 19th century. At that time, physics seemed to be a discipline filling in the last few details of a largely worked-out system. In 1900, Lord Kelvin famously stated, "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement." Five years later, Albert Einstein published his paper on special relativity, which challenged the very simple set of rules laid down by Newtonian mechanics, which had been used to describe force and motion for over three hundred years. In this case, the new paradigm reduces the old to a special case (Newtonian mechanics is an excellent approximation for speeds that are slow compared to the speed of light).

Besides, I said it was a friggin' THEORY (hypotheses) of mine. And, no, I haven't used the Scientific method to find measurable evidence.

Phg, in comparison, has no evidence for her beliefs either, but it may not be a case, in this instance, of neutrally seeking the answers (or the truth of the matter) but more a need to reinforce a "an ideal" worldview. Them's fightin' words, mister! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/bud.gif

[jsf]

Hi,
I read and translated (in french) this paper. What I found the most intersting point is that by some electrical stimulations they succeed to induce an OBE.

An OBE was induced three times at 3.5 mA. Immediately after the first stimulation, Patient 3 reported: "I see myself lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs".
We know very little about the neurobiological processes, and it could be great if we could create a device that can automatically induce an astral (or RTZ) projection.

[enoch]

:lol: oh, phg, you do crack me up! :lol:

What's the 'TPJ', phg?

Just to educate you: a hypothesis and a theory are completely different, btw. :wink:

In response to jsf: There is such a device If you're interested in this area then I'd recommend reading Persinger. He's been stimulating the temporal lobes for a few years, inducing obes in volunteers. In fact, he can also induce these states remotely which became the foundation for his argument that if aliens wanted to seize control of the earth they'd use remote brain scramblers that would leave us suspended in a hallucinatory never-world. maybe they already have, lol :lol:

It's quite an amazing field, all the same. Here's a little fact-bite: there are a thousand million connections in a portion of brain the size of a grain of sand. I suppse that's a good a reason as any to hold fire! :wink:

Monroe has much Empirical Data Really? care to share? I'm gonna have to get meself some Monroe.

Jeez, Enoch, do I really have to keep answering your sophomoric, rhetorical questions? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-022.gif

What's the 'TPJ', phg? I have no idea, remember, I didn't read the paper. :twisted: So, quit trying to test me, you're not my professor. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-004.gif

Seriously, though, :shock: neurosurgeons have known for years that they can stimulate certain areas of the brain to produce OBE-like experiences. Seems they are doing some "tinkering" themselves.

Enoch said:

Just to educate you: a hypothesis and a theory are completely different, btw.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
hypothesis
hy·poth·e·sis
Pronunciation: hI-'pä-th&-s&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hy·poth·e·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek, from hypotithenai to put under, suppose, from hypo- + tithenai to put -- more at DO
1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
3 : the antecedent clause of a conditional statement
synonyms HYPOTHESIS, THEORY

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sehrgrosse/large-smiley-001.gif
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sehrgrosse/large-smiley-007.gif

Ehem...regarding Monroe, he has discussed his experiments in all three books. Rosalind McKnight, one of his "experiencers" has also authored books about her experiences as one of his original test subjects. The Monroe Institute is known all over the world for it's experiments to try to prove, empirically, that OBE is a viable, testable experience. While there, we toured the lab where experiments are still ongoing, using many professional people (i.e. - Psychiartists, computer experts, Physicians, Scientists, etc.) as test subjects. His original group of experiencers, decades ago, were composed mostly of the same type of professionals. Monroe's 3 books are anecdotal, but do include in the back explanations of how they performed the experiments. Enoch, I think you'd enjoy his books. :D

[enoch]

Theory and Hypothesis
A theory is a well-established principle that has been developed to explain some aspect of the natural word. A theory arises from repeated observation and testing and incorporates facts, laws, predictions, and tested hypotheses that are widely accepted.

A hypothesis is a specific, testable prediction about what you expect to happen in your study.

check here for confirmation: http://wilstar.com/theories.htm



The TPJ is the temporoparietal junction. I asked this question because you said "In other words, it's all in your head (imagination). " Which isn't the case atall.


While the recent experiments with the Carmelite nuns have been unable to identify a definitive GOD spot in the brain, it seems that the pre-surgery electrical stimulation of the brain of an epileptic patient has shed light on a potential ghost spot.

When the Temporo-pareital junction (TPJ) was stimulated, the woman felt the presence of a shadow behind her that was taking the same posture as herself.

The woman described the shadow person as young, silent, and mirroring her position as she lay on her back. "He is behind me, almost at my body, but I do not feel it," she said, according to the doctors.

Next, the researchers stimulated the same spot in the woman's brain as she sat up with her arms wrapped around her knees.

Again, the woman sensed the shadow presence. This time she said the man was sitting behind her and had his arms around her.

Lastly, the woman sat up, holding a card in her right hand, for another brain test that involved stimulating the same brain area. She once more sensed the shadow person.

"He wants to take the card. He doesn't want me to read," the woman reportedly said.
This has interesting implications for Schizophrenia research and the Nature article does hint at that. Specifically, abnormal brain activity in the TPJ may give rise to a feeling of a shadowy person following the schizophrenic subject always. This sense of being watched may give rise to a host of related syndromes. This may give rise to a sense of paranoia, delusions of persecution , delusions of alien control (when hugging your knee it may seem the shadow was using its hand to force yours or the prior act of bending forward by the shadow may be implicated as causing oneself to bend forward) and other delusions like the alien hand syndrome. Interesting to note that the epileptic woman in question assigns bad motives to the shadow. ("he doesn't want me to take the card")

It would be interesting to investigate, what abnormalities, if any, in the TPJ are present in the Schizophrenics subjects.

I'll have a look for some monroe from amazon. :wink:

[Louise43]

Have to say this thread has made me laugh...nothing like a good old squabble over semantics :wink:

So, Enoch...when I'm in the house at night alone and I feel like someone is following me up the stairs, or standing behind me in the bathroom I shouldn't tell myself to stop being such a scaredy cat and I shouldn't ask who is there but who is tweaking my brain...cheeky devils, they could at least ask first! :D

Louise

[enoch]

we all need our brains tweaked once in a while. :P

[CFTraveler]

I'm going to ignore the witty banter between you two and will give my opinion on this paper. I did read every word, to my credit, and understood some of it, and looked up what I didn't. So here's my critique:
OBE as physical phenomenon:
First off, I want to say that this is the first neurological study of OBE <or what the scientists considered OBE, which is my first problem with this paper>. Of course, it’s really not their fault, because they only had people with epilepsy to study (no healthy people with OBE symptoms), so their findings had to correlate OBE with epilepsy. And yet, if I were going to look at their symptoms, I would conclude that only patient #1 had a classic OBE, at least as we in the community define OBE. I will try to break down how I interpreted the study and what I found problematic:
The first problem: The scientist, (which I will call he for laziness, since I didn’t look closely at his/her name) lumps OBE and AS together, when they’re very different experiences. AS is the effect of seeing your own body in front of you, a visual hallucination, while OBE moves the sensory perspective away from your body, and often bilocation is experienced, which wasn’t covered in the study, since all patients were suffering AS and interpreted their combined visual effects as seeing themselves out of body. Since ‘floating’ is a side effect of OBE, but not necessarily phasing, it was then considered a vestibular symptom, and was equated to feeling dizzy and out of balance, which to me is a great big assumption by the study. And for whomever wanted to know, vestibular means the balance system found in the middle ear and brain sections. Anyone who has punctured an eardrum knows the feeling of falling while sitting and other weird experiences- and that is not the same for someone who has experienced OBE or AP.
Now in detail:
“The present study describes phenomenological, neuropsychological and neuroimaging correlates of OBE and AS in six neurological patients. We provide neurological evidence that both experiences share important central mechanisms. We show that OBE and AS are frequently associated with pathological sensations of position, movement and perceived completeness of one’s own body.” But we’ll see later that there are very big differences in both.“Based on our findings, we speculate that ambiguous input from these different sensory systems is an important mechanism of OBE and AS, and thus the intriguing experience of seeing one’s body in a position that does not coincide with its felt position.” Once again, this is a symptom of AS, not OBE. In an OBE you see the physical body where it is, not in front of you floating or above you floating. The point of view is reversed, as opposed to AS.
“We suggest that OBE and AS are related to a failure to integrate proprioceptive, tactile and visual information with respect to one’s own body (disintegration in personal space) and by a vestibular dysfunction leading to an additional disintegration between personal (vestibular) space and extrapersonal (visual) space.
We argue that both disintegrations (personal; personal–extrapersonal) are necessary for the occurrence of OBE and AS, and that they are due to a paroxysmal cerebral dysfunction of the TPJ in a state of partially and briefly impaired consciousness.” That could be true, but the study doesn’t demonstrate this.
“…some authors postulated a dysfunction of proprioception and kinesthesia, others a dysfunction of visual or vestibular processing, as well as combinatory dysfunctions between these different sensory systems (Menninger-Lerchenthal, 1935 ; Hécaen and Ajuriaguerra, 1952 ; Leischner, 1961 ; Frederiks, 1969 ; Devinsky et al., 1989 ; Brugger et al., 1997 ; Grüsser and Landis, 1991 ).
The regions as suggested by the individual overlap analysis for the five patients (all patients except Patient 4) were used to determine the region of overlap overall patients (mean overlap analysis). This was performed by transposing the MRI (including the location of individual lesion overlap) of each patient onto Patient 5’s MRI (left hemisphere).” In other words, all 6 patients had temporoparietaljoint lesions, but only patient one had OBE symptoms.Patient 1 had legitimate OBE symptoms. I’ll give them that one.
Patient 2
Patient 2 “suffered from complex partial seizures that were characterized initially by the hearing of a humming sound in her right backspace. On other occasions, she had the visual impression (while lying down) that her legs were elevated and bent (at the knees) followed by stretching, in rhythmic alternation. If she asked another person whether they saw her legs moving, they always responded negatively. Pharmacoresistrant epilepsy was diagnosed.” This is not an OBE symptom, and the fact that she asked someone else what they were seeing shows that she was fully conscious (if impaired) while she was having the seizure.
Patient 3
”Patient 3 suffered from complex partial seizures that started with an epigastric aura followed by the sensation of globally diminished hearing. Patient 3 never experienced OBE/AS during or outside her seizures”. So why was she lumped in the combination? Read on:
“Because OBEs were induced repeatedly by electrical stimulation during invasive presurgical epilepsy evaluation. At the same electrode site, vestibular sensations and visual body part illusions were induced (supplementary material). Figure 2C depicts the electrode sites (turquoise dots) at the parieto-temporal junction where OBEs and other responses were obtained” The problem with this is that visual body part illusions are not OBE symptoms- they were visual hallucinations. Seeing a ghostly image of your legs or arms are not classic OBE symptoms, and they were induced on purpose.
Patient 4
”Patient 4 was known for arterial hypertension, smoking and moderate recurrent migraine headaches. No precise diagnosis could be given (migraine, transitory ischaemic attack, epilepsy).
He then experienced being "doubled" and saw "a second own body" that came "out of the elevated body" sitting in the chair (Fig. 3B). This ‘second body’ was seen from behind with all body parts in the sitting position (from his elevated physical visuo-spatial perspective). It continued to float and ascend without any body movements. This experience was associated with feelings of lightness and floating. In rapid alternation, he heard and saw his wife from above (Fig 3C) and from immediately in front of him (as if still sitting in his chair on the ground). The experience was described as a moment of elation and great happiness”.- Once again, these are not OBE symptoms. Seeing a double of yourself is not the same as having an OBE. And the guy had high blood pressure! My mother saw my dead father in one high blood pressure incident, but I digess...
AS. Patient 5-“ There, he suddenly saw himself standing behind the nurse. He stated that: "He looked like myself, but ten years younger and was dressed differently than I was at that moment". Patient 5 saw only the upper part of himself, including the trunk, head, shoulders, arms and hands. Then he had the impression of being examined by a physician. This was interrupted by the intervention of his second body, who was seen to start a fight with the physician and nurses.”- This also is not OBE- this is AS and there is a big difference in symptoms.Patient 6
”Patient 6 suffered from complex partial seizures that were characterized initially by AS or by simple visual hallucinations. Pharmacoresistant epilepsy was diagnosed. She had the feeling that she was "looking into a mirror or at a picture of myself". She described the image of herself as flat and two-dimensional. Her face was motionless and expressionless with eyes open and mouth closed. The image was localized centrally and 1 m from the patient’s physical body. She could not detail much of the remaining visual scene, as the area surrounding her seen upper body was dark. AS was mainly experienced when she was sitting, but also occurred rarely in lying and standing positions.”
Their conclusions: “ In all patients, self-recognition was immediate even if their face was not seen (Patient 3) or their body was seen from behind (Patients 2a and 4). Two OBE-patients saw their entire body [Patient 3 saw only the lower part of her body (legs, feet and lower trunk)]. Among the AS-patients, only one patient saw his body completely, yet perceived it as thinner, glowing and without much detail (Patient 4). The three remaining AS-patients, only saw their upper body parts (always including head, upper trunk and shoulders;…None of these patients felt ‘out of their body’, but also experienced ‘seeing’ the world from a parasomatic visuo-spatial perspective. It might be relevant that this parasomatic visuo-spatial perspective was experienced in rapid alternation with the habitual physical visuo-spatial perspective. A similar case has been described by Brugger et al. (1994 ) and called he-autoscopy.
If we assume that both electrically induced responses in Patient 3 (vestibular sensations, OBE) result from interference with neurons under the stimulating electrode, this finding suggests that OBE and vestibular sensations are caused by functionally and anatomically related neuronal populations.” That is one heck of an assumption, if you ask me.“Finally, room tilt illusion, inversion illusion and OBE share characteristics that suggest their related origin: they are paroxysmal, can be aborted by bodily action and eye closure, and are mostly characterized by exact 180° inversion between the extrapersonal space and the observer.”- Eye closure stop OBE? Where did this completely wrong assumption come from? Reallly!
“Thus, during an OBE our patients were in a supine position as was found by Green (1968 ) in 75% of OBEs”. –Yet clearly in the individual examples one of the patients had the AS when sitting, and another when walking. “
Well, if you ask me, since most of the population sleeps in the supine position around 100% of the time (ok, I made up this statistic) I would surmise that most OBEs are caused by the supine position, since they are occurring mostly in supine persons. Of course, there is the mostly reclined position that I personally favor, but that’s just a small detail.
Nice try, guys, but I’m not convinced. Next time they should go to a place like the Monroe institute where people are healthy (mostly, anyway) and test them against AS patients, and see how they correlate.
But seriously, all this study shows me is that:
1) You can cause all kinds of cool effects in the brain with a pair of cattleprods, and
2) Possibly one out of 6 people who see themselves out of their body (as opposed to have the experience of an external point of view) may have epilepsy or a brain tumor in the TPJ or the vestibular system.
3) These guys have to educate themselves in what the OBE community classifies an OBE experience, instead of classifying AS as OBE because there is a visual hallucination taking place.
Other than that, it was fascinating reading.
I wonder if I have a brain tumor?

[enoch]

lol...I'm sure you don't, cf. :lol: So, to summarise, you object to AS and OBE being clumped together under the same banner, and you believe that the OBE's that these people experience are in no way similar to the ones that you experience? I mean, they do experience "obe" don't they. Are we venturing into semantics again? But you're professing that the quality of the experience you have is different in some way?


I did note the similarities in distorted body image, the feeling that a presence was on their back, or behind them, the feeling of well-being, elevation, falling sensation and the 'dual consiousness' (being in two places at once). That's all covered in AD.

So - I suppose the question would be, in your experience, what differs? Obviously I can't comment because I have yet to experience it.

Phew! cf - credit to ya! You're a bright spark.

[CFTraveler]

enoch wrote:
I did note the similarities in distorted body image, the feeling that a presence was on their back, or behind them, the feeling of well-being, elevation, falling sensation and the 'dual consiousness' (being in two places at once). That's all covered in AD. My main problem with this is that what these people experienced were visions of their own bodies, without the shift in perspective that comes with an OBE. They were in essence observing their bodies floating in front of them, not experiencing being that body, if I read it correctly- this is not what an OBE feels like. Like I said before, the first subject (IMO) was the only one that had 'typical OBE experience' and all that goes with it. The rest of them experienced seeing themselves (like a reflection) somewhere else, like looking in the mirror or something like that- which is not an OBE symptom.
When you have a 'separation' and you look at your body (and not everyone does) what you see is the body, (sometimes distorted, sometimes not) in the spot where you 'left' it. What these people experienced was seeing themselves floating away, and the elevation feelings were accompanied by seizurelike symptoms, not just the experience of floating away as an extracorporal consciousness.
I'm not saying that you can't create an OBE experience with the right stimulation, I'm just saying that the examples in that specific study weren't close enough for me to identify with their cases.
In fact, the makers of binaural beats have proven that you can facilitate an OBE by stimulating the right 'buttons' in the brain- IMO a serious scientific study that isn't necessarily looking to find pathology should study the folks that demonstrably have the phenomenon and see what part of their brains light up when they report OBE symptoms (at least those that I can relate to). I think that would be very interesting.
If they found out what to stimulate I'd be the first one to volunteer.
Bring on the cattleprods!

[Senheiser]

Hm. I have a certain type of epilepsy diagnosed. Never tought that it can be linked with OBE or anything else. Not the one with occasional attacks (the one that makes you shake and gets that white foam out of your mouth), but some very insignificant version of it (inducts feeling like you are not present in the real world, somethimes situations feel like you are watching them from third person).

[CFTraveler]

Thanks, Senheiser. Just the right person to provide info on this.
Just to educate us, could you describe your seizures with a bit more details? And the diagnosis (if it's ok with you- If I'm being too invasive I'll back off.)

Godangit, I just spent the last 20 minutes googling "temporoparietal junction" and all I can find is scientific papers that won't give a defintion. Enoch, will you supply me with one? It's been, hmmm. over two decades since I took Anatomy & Physiology and me brain hurts. I know that "temporal" and "parietal" are structures (rather, areas) in the brain, but I don't recall the entire phrase. With "junction" it sounds like the place where the two meet. So, I'm going to take your word for it that this isn't a location in the brain, but where is it? The foot? :D

Ok, back to the situation at hand. I got about halfway through CF's discourse and this Gawdawful headache is starting up again. Thanks, CF. :lol: Now, I can't remember anything she wrote except that OBE's are not experienced from the perspective of being in front of yourself. (Or did I get that wrong?) I don't know, my head is killing me. :shock: From my experience, they can be perceived from just about any perspective, including mind-splits that are more than 2. If you have an OverSoul experience, you can be in the perspective of being in your own energy body, your OverSouls' energy body, and multiple incarnation bodies. Depending on how advanced the experience is, I would imagine that you could "see" and "be in" thousands of bodies at once. I'm not sure I would want that experience, I would probably go bonkers. Bear in mind, I may be way off the mark on interpreting what CF said.

Ok, so would the rest of you please stop using improper terminology? It's not "tweaking" with the brain, it's "tinkering!" If we've learned anything here, it's that we need to keep our terminology correct. :lol: :P :P

Speaking of "tinkering", I still fail to see how any scientific advances in brainology preclude the ability of the soul (and the doctor) to manipulate experiences by tinkering with the anatomy of the brain to produce OBE's or similar experiences? In the case of the former (soul), it would be through energetic (vibrational) manipulations, and the latter (neurologist or neurosurgeon) through the use of physical probes. In the tinkering, who is to say that they aren't doing exactly the same thing, albeit through different means?

Uh, CF, I wouldn't volunteer my brain so easily. In neurosurgery, they use a drill to remove bits of your bone to get to the suspected parts of the brain to use a mechanical probe on. Blach! :shock:

Back to my comment about tinkering, in the case of neurological damage (as in seizure disorder), there could be a miswiring of the brain due to multiple reasons...direct injury to the brain, heredity, pathology, etc. Through the miswiring, OBE symptoms could come about because of chemical manipulation, which isn't that different from mechanical probe manipulation. The synapses are just going a different route to the same area of the brain.

Now, Enoch, where's my definition? I can't go upstairs to get my Anatomy and Physiology book out of hiding because I'm stuck downstairs with a post surgery cast. Help me, help me...wait!!!! Maybe I'll just OBE on up there! :D :twisted: :D

[CFTraveler]

:lol:
Temporoparietal junction:
Temporal lobe
parietal lobe
junction: where they meet
in other words, around the ear section- a bit to the back.
:lol:
about the perspective thing: From what I read in the paper, the effect of autoscopy: auto-self, scope- to see
is that you're seeing yourself from your own body, not experiencing being out of body. Like looking in the mirror. Like seeing a reflection/projection of yourself.
Most of these people were experiencing autoscopy, not experiencing the sensory perception of being the reflection.
Even though OBE can have a variety of, well, variety, these people were essentially having the same experience, very limited in symptoms.
So in my opinion, the symptoms were not close to what we call OBE here to call it the same thing.
That's all I'm saying.
I left all the metaphysical stuff out of the critique (the mind-soul connection) because I was inspecting the scientific part of the theory behind the study, and I found it lacking.

[enoch]

I've already donated my brain to science. Hopefully they may spark me up one day in the future (you can't rid of me that easily! :P )

ok phg...here's a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_cortex

I'm gonna have to come back and read all this later because my wife is desperate to fiddle about with her i-tunes software. :x :twisted:

Temporoparietal junction:
Temporal lobe
parietal lobe
junction: where they meet

Oh, great, Enoch. Way to go...trying to make me feel stupid. I was right after all. I knew I didn't forget everything about A & P. I didn't cut brains apart in my practical lab class for nuttin'. I KNEW it would come in handy some day. It's not only all in the head, it's all in the brain. Which was my point in the first place. Which was that your brain physiology is making you believe things that "might not be true". Now, I'm going to have to emoticon you for that!!!!!!!! Take this:

Aw, great. The emotican server is down. You'll have to content yourself with this: :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Uh, Enoch, if you've donated your brain to science, they won't be able to spark it up again. Some medical student will be cutting it up in his/her anatomy class. Ha!

[CFTraveler]

Actually, that was me. :lol: But I'll let him take the blame. :twisted:
Boo a ha ha ha!

[Senheiser]

Thanks, Senheiser. Just the right person to provide info on this.
Just to educate us, could you describe your seizures with a bit more details? And the diagnosis (if it's ok with you- If I'm being too invasive I'll back off.)


Sure it's not something i am ashamed of or evading to talk about :wink:

First the diagnose:

ype 1: Idiopathic Generalized Epilepsy

In idiopathic generalized epilepsy, there is often, but not always, a family history of epilepsy. Idiopathic generalized epilepsy tends to appear during childhood or adolescence, although it may not be diagnosed until adulthood. In this type of epilepsy, no nervous system (brain or spinal cord) abnormalities other than the seizures have been identified as of yet. The brain is structurally normal on brain magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan.

People with idiopathic generalized epilepsy have normal intelligence and the results of the neurological examination and brain scan (MRI) are usually normal. The results of the electroencephalogram (EEG - a test which measures electrical impulses in the brain) may show epileptic discharges affecting the entire brain (so called generalized discharges).

The types of seizures affecting patients with idiopathic generalized epilepsy may include:

* Myoclonic seizures (sudden and very short duration jerking of the extremities
* Absence seizures (staring spells)
* Generalized tonic-clonic seizures (grand mal seizures)

Idiopathic generalized epilepsy is usually treated with medications. Some forms of this condition that may be outgrown, as is the case with childhood absence epilepsy and a large number of patients with juvenile myoclonic epilepsy.


Now the weird thing is i am 25 and still got it, alltho the neuropsychiatrics agreed it was supposed to be gone by now. It shows on EEG (Electroencephalography) only, meaning that Magnetic resonanse and computerised tomography scans are quite normal. It's threated by tegretol but excluding phenobarbital.

Now about the sensations. It usually occurs when i move among crowded places (but not always it can occur anywhere) it's rather hard to explain in words. It's like you are with a friend you are making some conversation and suddenly you feel like you are watching the whole thing on TV or you are in dream. Reality doesen't feel really real in those situations. You have a full control over your actions and can talk normally. Somethimes it's followed by some sort of dizzyness on very low level.

I also think that my overal sight of life has changed since i was a kid. This definetly can't be described with words since what i feel, and see i cannot compare it to others out of a simple reason - i do not know how other people see and feel, in other words i cannot tell if it's normal or not. Long story short i always see some sparky dots changing fast and my image is slightly distorted. In darker places distortion is higher and in dark is highest. If more light is added image get's clearer but there is another prolem with that, dizzyness. More brighter eniroinment means dizzyer for me, unless i am really well rested and with really well i mean a week or two without work, sleeping around 8-9 hours a day and lot's and lot's of sunlight. For example i was with my girlfriend on vacation in Greece and that week everything seemed better. I was driving around 700 km without feeling any abnormalities.

The other annoying thing is the uncontrolled body movements. They occure daily, but most of the time in the relaxation just before you are going to fall asleep. They are short and don't take longer then just one seccond or two, but are highly unpleasant. Once my jaw moved and i almost broke a tooth. I was confused since the doctors said clearly it will manifest with sudden moves of my extremities, but then it happened again that night, my whole head moved. :?

Then i asked for seccond and even third opinion from other doctors and they all agreed my case isn't exactly classic. Absence seizures, when happen, usually the subject blacks out, well i don't. I am very well aware of my condition in such situations. Only once or twice i had this total black outs, say's my mother and father, but i don't recall having them.

During the seizure, awareness and responsiveness are impaired. People who have them usually don't realize when they've had one. There is no warning before a seizure, and the person is completely alert immediately afterward.

The Generalized tonic-clonic seizures is:

A generalized tonic-clonic seizure is a seizure involving the entire body, usually characterized by muscle rigidity, violent rhythmic muscle contractions, and loss of consciousness. The condition is caused by abnormal electrical activity in the nerve cells of the brain.

Thanks God i don't have those. Those are the classic attacks i think.


Post if you wish to know something else i didn't mention.

[CFTraveler]

Thanks for posting. My brother in law was diagnosed with psychological seizures after his thirties, if you can believe it. He gets absence seizures during the day, letting him know a big one is coming, and when he seizes it's always during sleep, in which he'll get up and start acting like he's having some sort of drug-induced rage, (the doctors liken it to something like Tourrette's syndrome, only more dramatic.) He's on some medications, I believe Neurontin may be one of them, but am not sure, since he also has Fibromyalgia.
Interestingly, he used to get the OBE-like episode where the legs feel like they go up in the air in a strobelike fashion like one of the people in the study. He doesn't get those anymore, I've been told.

[enoch]

cf said (in italics)

My main problem with this is that what these people experienced were visions of their own bodies, without the shift in perspective that comes with an OBE[/i]

But they projected outside their bodies and viewed them from the ceiling?? isn't that the same difference.

I'm not saying that you can't create an OBE experience with the right stimulation, I'm just saying that the examples in that specific study weren't close enough for me to identify with their cases.

I can see that. Judging by the various descriptions I've read here in the forums, the study cases weren't that spectacular, apart from the similarities mentioned above (distorted body image, dual consciousness, shadow-beings, etc.)

I may be wrong here but I think the primary study was obe but they drafted-in epileptics because they have a higher frequency of projections ir separations than most people.

the makers of binaural beats have proven that you can facilitate an OBE by stimulating the right 'buttons' in the brain- IMO a serious scientific study that isn't necessarily looking to find pathology should study the folks that demonstrably have the phenomenon and see what part of their brains light up when they report OBE symptoms (at least those that I can relate to). I think that would be very interesting.

I wonder whether there aren't enough people who project at will. I wonder why RB hasn't participated yet?

If they found out what to stimulate I'd be the first one to volunteer.

That would be awesome.

phg said (in bold character :lol: )

So, I'm going to take your word for it that this isn't a location in the brain, but where is it? The foot?

It's funny you mention that because there are cases where people have become their feet! :)

It's not only all in the head, it's all in the brain.

I wasn't objecting to your "it's all in the head/brain" thing. I was objecting to the "imagination" that you added in brackets. The patients were stimulated in the left temporoparietal junction ...the right hemisphere deals with creativity, vision and imagination.

Now, where's my beer!

I mean, to put it crudely, we know (roughly) how certain psychoactives act on the receptors to induce 'spiritual states' but it doesn't stop people enjoying them, gaining knowledge from them and reaping great mystical/spiritual rewards from them. It changes lives for the better. (and sometimes for the worse).

I've always been of the impression that the brain is a nuts and bolts system genetically engineered to provide the basics for survival (in order for us to successfully reproduce) but there are some gates in there that, when opened, can give us access to a wider picture. I don't care if they find out how to unlock that gate - it's what lies behind it that's exciting!!

edit: now there is another line of research going on at machester uni. The researchers there are exploring the possibility that obe is related to the person's dislike of their own body image. Going along the lines of obe attempts being a form of desperate escapism from a body they're not content with in reality. the results of which were extracted from surveys. (I do believe that particular survey link was added here last year). ?? Fruitless is you ask me, but there you go :roll:

[enoch]

http://cref.tripod.com/article_oberesearch.htm

laboratory research info

http://www.bookofjoe.com/2006/10/behindthemedspe_1.html

more recent new york times article covering topics here..and more.

the right hemisphere deals with creativity, vision and imagination. Oh, no, no, no, my dear! I just saw a program on the Science channel a couple of months ago. The latest research out is showing that many, many areas (previously unrecognized) of the brain are lighting up using CT Scans when creativity and imagination are involved. They think it is a whole brain use phenomenum. It really interested me because of hypnosis and the use of imagination while in trance.

There was also some interesting stuff about hearing and vision not being localized, either. Don't remember the specifics. Vvvveeeerrrryyyy interesting. :shock:

[wjjw]

Very interesting. I’d also be interested in the neuroscientific explanation of remote viewing.

Maybe people should experiment more with OBEs in pairs to look for objective characteristics:
http://hrvg.org/newsletter/2002-08/true.html

[Senheiser]

Since the human brain is one of the biggest mysteries, they can just guess. Wether it creates illusions or not i don't know and they don't know either. Who knows maybe the brain is designed to be the communicator between the worlds, but it's simply locked for some of the people.

[enoch]

Well, the brain definately creates illusions, we know that much. Take the famous 'einstein mould' for example which follows your every move, to name but a few. Where is that...I'll have to find it on the web.

phg...that's interesting...I'll have to do some homework. :P

Here's the einstein illusion if anyone wants to see it. http://www.grand-illusions.com/videos/h ... lusion.wmv (http://www.grand-illusions.com/videos/hollow%20face%20illusion.wmv)

CF - Would you mind detailing a tyipcal obe?

[CFTraveler]

The effect was cool, but I could only see it in the window example.

I think my OBEs are fairly typical, so I'll describe one of mine:
I'm in the hypnagogic state, half asleep, then I start to feel vibrations around my chest area. The vibes are felt and heard (like a sprinkler rotating from the chest area, can be startling. Then I start to see the room around me, although my eyes are closed. At this point I still have the in-body point of view.
Then I start to feel movement, as if my point of view were being sucked forward (it's the best way to describe it). There is no 'body feeling' to this, just kind of 'mind being me', if it makes any sense. At this point I'm floating around the room. I (out of habit) quickly dash to the wall. I push through it and there is feeling associated with it, but not the 'normal' feeling. It's more like going through a sieve in the sense that the wall feels solid but I go through it. I feel as if the 'me' that is going through is the consistency of butter (cohesive but not solid). Once I'm on the other side I float around the area, until I decide to go somewhere. At that point I will fly straight up until I'm in 'space', and then I'll decide on a 'star' and fly there. When I arrive (there is a sensation of speed) there will be a dreamlike scenario. When I'm done, I'll either all of a sudden have 'feeling I'm in my body' for a few seconds (bilocation) and then I feel like I fall in it, or if I'm not having a good time and consciously decide to end it, I think about myself sitting in the recliner and there will be a falling feeling and I'll be there instantly (well, almost. Some reentries are not so smooth).
*When I feel bilocation it's usually when I'm getting out and when I'm coming back in. *When (or rather, after) I separate my point-of view shifts completely to my 'floating self'. Bilocation doesn't last long.
If I were to compare most of the examples in the study, I'd say they remind me of the pre-OBE state, but after separation they are completely different.
And I have never seen a copy of myself floating in front of me or above me from my body, as the autoscopy patients have. That has to be uber-creepy!

[enoch]

uber-creepy.. :lol:

Do you always go to space?

Do the insides of walls 'glow' (in your experiences) like rb described?

I noticed that your prime time for projection is normally early morning on your recliner. I think I'm gonna start doing that too. :P

[CFTraveler]

uber-creepy.. :lol:

Do you always go to space? If I complete the experience, yes.


Do the insides of walls 'glow' (in your experiences) like rb described? No. The only glowing objects I ever saw were baby plants on the top of the fridge in the kitchen. They had just sprouted, and what attracted me to them was the glow. That was cool.

I noticed that your prime time for projection is normally early morning on your recliner. I think I'm gonna start doing that too. :P I highly recommend it. It saves time on relaxation and takes care of any subconscious fear-of-the dark you might have.

Enoch said:

edit: now there is another line of research going on at machester uni. The researchers there are exploring the possibility that obe is related to the person's dislike of their own body image. Going along the lines of obe attempts being a form of desperate escapism from a body they're not content with in reality. the results of which were extracted from surveys. (I do believe that particular survey link was added here last year). ?? Fruitless is you ask me, but there you go

I can't speak for anybody else, but in my personal experience, I think there may be some truth to this. I'm really, really tired of the human body. A lot of that has to do with my age and health problems. I wouldn't call it "desperate escapism", but it does get me away from the pain and drudgery. 'Course it doesn't help that I had surgery recently and am in a cast and crutches for several more months. :roll: You'd want to "fly" too, if you were me! :lol: Maybe they should study me, I could really blow the bell curve for them. :twisted:

[enoch]

Blow the bell curve? :lol: :roll:

How many more times are we gonna hear about your cast, phg :lol:

:twisted:

Why did you have surgery? You didn't try to fly did you? health problems? You're a 49 year old californian woman... :wink:

ok cf. As from tonight I'm gonna come down to the lounge at roughly 3am every morning and see what i can do. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

this one's for you, phg: :P

You have to hear about my cast until I get it off! :twisted: 'Cause I'm not happy about it and my husband and friends are sick of hearing about it. So, I like to torture you with the information. :lol: I ruptured (tore all the way through) my achille's tendon falling down the stairs while in the middle of a nasty flu and 104 degree temperature. Emergency Room did every test in the book, including a spinal tap, 'cause they thought I might have Encephalitis or West Nile Virus, etc. Then, had surgery. Feel sorry for me, now, Mr. Smartypants? :twisted: Actually, I believe I created all this (manifestation) because I don't want to be in my body. Still working on that, trying to make peace with my body. I know it feels unappreciated. :lol:

I'm not 49, that's CF. Yeh, we aren't the same person. Hehe! I'm 52 in 2 weeks. I'm sure everyone else is loving hearing our private conversation. :lol:

[enoch]

phew *wipes brow** at least I thought you were younger than what you are. ah! Still pretty young though arent ya!

I severed all the tendons in my left hand and damaged my median nerve beyond repair a couple of years back. I was plastered up for three months, it burned day and night (nerve damage) and then when they removed the cast I had a claw hand. It took another 4 months occupational therapy to learn how to use it again. I couldn't tie my shoe laces, put my hair in a pony; I couldn't even clean myself properly after using the loo. I used to sit up in bed at night pulling clumps out of my hair because I felt so inadequate and silly.

I'm ok now but my left hand will be numb for the rest of my life. I could stub a cigarette out on it and not feel a thing.

It's annoying isn't it.

Spinal Tap? Aren't they a spoof metal band?

:evil:

[wjjw]

I was just reading the article at this link:

http://www.fmbr.org/papers/about_spirits.php

And noticed the statement below. I have no idea what the evidence was, but I remembered this thread, so I'm posting it here. Also of interest is their claim that blind people can sometimes "see" in these states. I recall Robert Bruce mentioning that this was not the case from his research.


A recently completed three year study of the blind by Drs. Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper has added strong evidence that out-of-body and near-death experiences are not merely some kind of psychological aberration or neurological artifact (Ring & Cooper, 1999). There have existed astonishing claims that blind persons, including those blind from birth, can actually "see" during such experiences. After a careful analysis of case studies, Dr. Ring concludes that: "Clearly, the evidence is overwhelming that these NDE's can no longer be regarded as dreams or fantasies, or things people merely imagine. --- Something real, indisputably real, is happening to these experiencers. When it begins with the OBE episode, they seem to be beholding things of this world, but with an enlarged understanding. --- But, then, they are taken into an elsewhere to which we, the witnesses, can no longer have direct access. However, knowing that they have not been hallucinating even at the beginning of their journey gives us greater confidence that the visions they will soon encounter -- emanate from another reality and have their own self-existent truth" (Ring & Valarino, 1998, p.95).

[enoch]

I'm presuming the blind were blind-from-birth. Indeed, the blind can develop 'facial vision' in every day life just as nocturnal animals do. Whereas we build the environment through light they construct an 'image' of the environment through other means (such as electricity or ultrasound). It's interesting though.

blindness due to a cortical lesion cannot be used as evidence to highlight supposed supernatural vision during NDEs.There are rare cases where the visual cortex is damaged and the person cannot see, yet some modalities of visual information still get through. Like this case : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm (I disagree with calling it a "sixth sense", BTW).

There is no reason in principle why a cortical lesion with apparent complete blindness should preclude some sort of visual input - the basic sensory transducers are still intact. Photons are still entering the eye, impinging on the retina and causing biochemical changes in the rods and cones that may induce electrochemical phenomena in the optic nerves, which are potentially transmissible right back to the visual cortex. Note that this sort of mysterious "sight" occurs when fully conscious and not during an NDE.

Hence even if you found an NDE with visual experience in a person with cortical blindness of some sort, I would be inclined to put it down to subconscious visual processing that comes to the fore during the NDE. I would not find that incredible, or even implausible - the person could "actually" receive visual input all along, but denied it up till then. Nothing supernatural about that.

In simple terms, sightedness during NDEs in people with cortical blindness doesn't prove anything.

On the contrary, if the eyes themselves are damaged very badly (as in severe retinal neovascularisation, like in the case I cited), or, better still, there's been complete enucleation of both eyes at birth, THEN any accurate visual experience during an NDE would certainly be supernatural. Because there is no physically plausible way photons from the surrounding could induce electrical activity in such a person's brain during life.

[CFTraveler]

I'm presuming the blind were blind-from-birth. Indeed, the blind can develop 'facial vision' in every day life just as nocturnal animals do. Whereas we build the environment through light they construct an 'image' of the environment through other means (such as electricity or ultrasound). It's interesting though.

blindness due to a cortical lesion cannot be used as evidence to highlight supposed supernatural vision during NDEs.There are rare cases where the visual cortex is damaged and the person cannot see, yet some modalities of visual information still get through. Like this case : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm (I disagree with calling it a "sixth sense", BTW).

There is no reason in principle why a cortical lesion with apparent complete blindness should preclude some sort of visual input - the basic sensory transducers are still intact. Photons are still entering the eye, impinging on the retina and causing biochemical changes in the rods and cones that may induce electrochemical phenomena in the optic nerves, which are potentially transmissible right back to the visual cortex. Note that this sort of mysterious "sight" occurs when fully conscious and not during an NDE.

Hence even if you found an NDE with visual experience in a person with cortical blindness of some sort, I would be inclined to put it down to subconscious visual processing that comes to the fore during the NDE. I would not find that incredible, or even implausible - the person could "actually" receive visual input all along, but denied it up till then. Nothing supernatural about that.

In simple terms, sightedness during NDEs in people with cortical blindness doesn't prove anything.

On the contrary, if the eyes themselves are damaged very badly (as in severe retinal neovascularisation, like in the case I cited), or, better still, there's been complete enucleation of both eyes at birth, THEN any accurate visual experience during an NDE would certainly be supernatural. Because there is no physically plausible way photons from the surrounding could induce electrical activity in such a person's brain during life.
Just to be annoying- could photons received through the pineal gland have an effect on the cortical system if the 'receiving' part of the brain is unaffected? Say, the optical nerve is severed but the pineal gets photon bombardment and it produces a signal? (If the article mentioned it and I didn't see it I apologized).

[zomora]

The science community isn't ready for higher laws governing how the human soul works, there are laws for how w breath and see[ well for most folks] whne we learn to turn around and see the universe as it is and not what we think it is
brain chemistry is the elements to which cause the brain to work in its natural order. With other area's yopu need to look into the domins that cover that. ANd learn to quite the mind, once you learn to quite the mind you'll learn something which will cause you to change your life.