Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies. [Archive] - Astral Dynamics Down-Under Community

Tempestinateapot

6th February 2007, 02:27 AM

The discussions about enlightenment seem to come up over and over. There are as many opinions as there are people. But, that's ok. I think that enlightenment is whatever you want it to be. Allowing other people to have their beliefs, and being ok with that, can be an important step in each of our evolutions. I haven't always believed this, and I haven't always practiced it. I've pissed off a number of people throughout my life, and in the last year on AD, by being narrow-minded and obnoxious about it (among other things). :(

In the last year of being on AD, my belief systems have been taken apart, re-arranged, turned upside down, put back together, just to come apart again. What was once unreal, is now real. What was once real is now unreal. It's been quite a ride. :shock: But, I wouldn't trade it for all the tea in China. :D

So, for anyone who cares (all 2 of you) :lol: here's how things stand now. Enlightenment isn't something you earn. It isn't something that you work for, strive for, have 1,000 OBE's, read Tarot cards, hang crystals, hold hands and sway in unison to achieve. It's much simpler than that. It's recognizing that you Are. You are God, you are the Source, you are the Everything, you are the I AM. Well, you and everything else. There is nothing that is not the Source. And, the only reason we are here is for the experience. We're not here for love, we're not here to live 1,000 human lives, we're not here for the hamburgers. :D We're here for the experience...period. That's it. That's all there is. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

So, if we are here only for the experience, that would mean that there is no right or wrong way to do anything. ANYTHING. There is no belief system that is right, and there is no belief system that is wrong. There is no act that is right, and there is no act that is wrong. And, love? Love is not the purpose. It is not what we are supposedly striving for. It is the outcome. It is what flows when you realize that you are already enlightened. Because there is nothing to judge, there is only You experiencing Yourself in all your many facets. Your creations. You love the creations, great and small, because they are You.

That's it. That's enligtenment. And, beyond? Well, there's anything you want. Have 1,000 OBE's, read your Tarot cards, polish up your crystals. Have fun, cry, argue with your neighbor, blissfully walk through a forest. But, don't mistake those for enlightenment. They are the experiences you've created, now that you are enlightened.

journyman161

6th February 2007, 03:38 AM

How enlightening...! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, it's an interesting concept. I think I need some time to think it through. Seems a little anti-climactic.

wstein

6th February 2007, 08:06 AM

Anyway, I had my hamburger earlier today (along with curly fries).

Perhaps you can share with those that want to know, what helped you wake up.

Inx

6th February 2007, 01:20 PM

that's really very simple, isn't it :)

as for myself, it didn't take too long to understand this. however something urges me to make sure, to witness it in some way, so I could be really confident in this. I guess it is the fear that urges me...

Tom

6th February 2007, 05:18 PM

It is a good start to know this, but it has to be experienced directly many times until it can be lived continuously under any circumstances.

Tempestinateapot

6th February 2007, 09:15 PM

wstein, I figured you would be the only one to get it. :wink: Fact is, I wrote you a pm, but ended up deleting it. I assumed you would be able to tell by reading my new posts. And, you did! :D

I have changed. Radically. I've flipped to the other side. It has taken a year, and it has taken a week. And, it has taken 52 years. I've been moving really close to this in the last year. Always peeking over the side, but not quite ready to jump. Because the jump means jumping into the Void. There is no metaphysical "practice" that you can do to achieve this. In fact, you have to leave your metaphysical practices by the side of the road, and recognize they are the last Great Illusion. The illusion is that any of this is real. The illusion is that there is any grand purpose to all of this. When you break everything down to it's core truth, there is no truth. There is only experience. I could go deeper into this, but I'm sure I'm pissing off a number of people by saying what I've already said.

I have killed the Buddha. :D

CFTraveler

6th February 2007, 09:19 PM

:lol:

Tempestinateapot

6th February 2007, 09:36 PM

Jman:
Seems a little anti-climactic.It is. That's exactly why it seems that way.

Tom:
but it has to be experienced directly many times until it can be lived continuously under any circumstances.If you have to keep experiencing it directly, many times, you haven't made it. You haven't killed the Buddha. Circumstances don't change it. You are enlightened or your not. No in-betweens. You don't have to live in bliss 24/7. That is another illusion along the path of zillions of illusions. You can eat your hamburger and fries, throw them up, be sick, be mad, be angry at the person who didn't wash their hands who made your hamburger. It's why we're here in this illusion. The experience. If you want bliss, have bliss. If you want a hamburger, have a hamburger. It's that simple. It's that profound. It's that anticlimatic.

CFTraveler

6th February 2007, 09:57 PM

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/party/party-smiley-016.gif

journyman161

6th February 2007, 10:01 PM

No wonder we cover it up with a game... (or games)

When I think of it as you say it, there's a thought hovering, deep inside - If I can find it I will let you know what it is. It kinda feels like 'that's almost it... or something similar to that feeling. Note I am not saying you don't have 'it' just that what you say is causing a tingle-thought way off in the background.

I'm at work so can't really give it the attention it needs to bring it forward.

CFTraveler

6th February 2007, 10:03 PM

It's a deep-down knowing- Like you already knew this but somehow forgot. Deep down.

star

6th February 2007, 10:17 PM

Jee, you know, it sounds sorta hard to do that.

Tempestinateapot

6th February 2007, 10:35 PM

Killing the Buddha:
This is a quote from a website. Although the rest of the article doesn't seem like the person writing is quite there. The talk about "religion" and "faith" is still clinging to the hope that there is something to believe in. There is nothing to believe in. Our beliefs are merely our creations. Our faith is hollow. The only thing you really know for absolutely positive is that you exist. The rest are fabrications.
http://www.killingthebuddha.com/manifesto.htm

The idea of "killing the Buddha" comes from a famous Zen line, the context of which is easy to imagine: After years on his cushion, a monk has what he believes is a breakthrough: a glimpse of nirvana, the Buddhamind, the big pay-off. Reporting the experience to his master, however, he is informed that what has happened is par for the course, nothing special, maybe even damaging to his pursuit. And then the master gives the student dismaying advice: If you meet the Buddha, he says, kill him.

Why kill the Buddha? Because the Buddha you meet is not the true Buddha, but an expression of your longing. If this Buddha is not killed he will only stand in your way.

Why Killing the Buddha ? For our purposes, killing the Buddha is a metaphor for moving past the complacency of belief, for struggling honestly with the idea of God.

journyman161

6th February 2007, 11:05 PM

*picks up effing big sword & goes looking for Buddha*

*grins*

star

6th February 2007, 11:07 PM

You know, you could always use Doom's BFG.

journyman161

6th February 2007, 11:18 PM

I think there's more to experience with an effing big sword... :lol:

Tempestinateapot

6th February 2007, 11:20 PM

Jee, you know, it sounds sorta hard to do that.It is hard. It requires that you demolish all your fondly held beliefs. It requires that you acknowledge that there is no "loving" God. Big taboo! REALLY BIG. Everybody wants God to love them. It's comforting. But, it's not the reality. The Source knows no right or wrong. It just Is. No duality, no yin and yang, no need to be saved. Create love? Yes. But, it's a creation. It's not the ultimate truth. War and killing? Right or wrong? Neither. It's an experience. It, too, is a creation.

Jman said:
*picks up effing big sword & goes looking for Buddha* Here, maybe this will help. But, you are going where angels fear to tread. 8)
"Spiritual Enlightenment, the Damnedest Thing" (book by Jed McKenna)

star

6th February 2007, 11:26 PM

I was reading that before. A good friend recommended it. :)

The idea of Spiritual Autolysis frightened me.

Tempestinateapot

7th February 2007, 12:19 AM

This relates back to what Tom said:

"But what about when people explore their inner selves? Make journeys of self-discovery? Aren't they going within to find the truth?"

"They're just exploring the ego, making a study of the false self, which is a lifequest as valid as any other. But you don't wake up by perfecting your dream character, you wake up by breaking free of it. There's no truth to the ego, so no degree of mastery over it results in anything true. Putting attention on the false self merely reinforces it." J. McKenna

sublimezg

7th February 2007, 01:29 AM

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/party/party-smiley-016.gif

Sweet Jesus! You're smiley just explained enlightenment to me. You must eat the hamburger, then disappear!

Tempestinateapot

7th February 2007, 01:32 AM

Whadaya think, zg? Did I do good?
oh, sublimezg, Keeper of All Knowledge :wink:

sublimezg

7th February 2007, 01:41 AM

Whadaya think, zg? Did I do good?
oh, sublimezg, Keeper of All Knowledge :wink:

Yea, not bad. I would have summarized with something along the lines of:

All paths inevitably lead to enlightenment. The question is, how many paths (lifetimes) do you want to take before you get there.

Tom

7th February 2007, 02:11 AM

I have the audio version of both his currently released books, on CD.

It is true that the moment of enlightenment must happen once and cannot be repeated. I'm saying it usually happens after a long period of approaching it and backing away before reaching. If it were easy, everyone who has read about the experience would arrive.

This relates back to what Tom said:

"But what about when people explore their inner selves? Make journeys of self-discovery? Aren't they going within to find the truth?"

"They're just exploring the ego, making a study of the false self, which is a lifequest as valid as any other. But you don't wake up by perfecting your dream character, you wake up by breaking free of it. There's no truth to the ego, so no degree of mastery over it results in anything true. Putting attention on the false self merely reinforces it." J. McKenna

Tempestinateapot

7th February 2007, 02:56 AM

It is true that the moment of enlightenment must happen once and cannot be repeated.Yeh, and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. :wink:

wstein

7th February 2007, 05:43 AM

I once started to write a book "Beyond Beyond". I realized that anyone who could understand it, did not need to read it.

Tom

8th February 2007, 05:16 AM

Write that book "Beyond Beyond" for the people who are Almost Beyond who just need another push.

wstein

8th February 2007, 05:57 AM

Write that book "Beyond Beyond" for the people who are Almost Beyond who just need another push.I have found that the last few steps are very individual for each person. To be helpful in a detailed way for every one is not practical. What you end up with is vague and indirect generalizations. I'm sure you have read some of those mystical texts. They are not of any help to anyone.

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 06:51 AM

Ok then, write a book about how to cope with the beyond beyond. It obviously won't be a best-seller. :lol: It turns love and light on it's head and sends it packing. Not for mass consumption. Anyone who goes after the "real" enlightenment is in for a major brain overhaul. Sometimes, it's better to be asleep and happy about it.

Metatron

8th February 2007, 02:28 PM

"Do not attempt to seek enlightenment; unless you do so with the same fervor as a man who's head is on fire would seek a bucket of water." :wink:

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 06:44 PM

It's more like you throw the bucket of water away, and let your head burn down to nothing. The water would just put off the inevitable.

I sound like a happy camper, don't I? :lol: This being awake thing isn't for sissies. :? That's it. I"m changing the name of this thread.

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 06:58 PM

star said:
The idea of Spiritual Autolysis frightened me.It should. The process is frightening. The outcome is bleak. If you want love and light and happiness and bliss, don't do it. That's not what you will find. You will only find the truth. The rest is just advertising to sell books. :?

Seriously, don't look at this thread. It's a train wreck.

Tom

8th February 2007, 07:11 PM

Jed also warns you that it takes 10 years to integrate the experience under ideal circumstances, and that if you have to do it in regular daily existence the results can be very strange.

In Zen, enlightenment is the beginning of the path rather than the end of the path. It is when you've finally gotten started. Until then you are on the path to the path.

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 07:24 PM

Until then you are on the path to the path.Yeh, and that's what 99.99999% of the people don't want to hear. They will fight tooth and nail to save their ego and stay in the dream. I should know. :shock:

So, what do you do after? Not that I really care, 'cause you are just an illusion, anyway. :twisted:

Tom

8th February 2007, 07:37 PM

So, what do you do after? Not that I really care, 'cause you are just an illusion, anyway. :twisted:

Just to clarify, which of us are you saying is the illusion? :)

According to Osho, until now the trick was to break free. All your efforts had to be in that direction. Now the trick is to learn to hold on still and to participate in the world. He said that this is why Buddhism has the Bodhisattva ideal. Until you break free you are not qualified, but once you are free you still have something to hold on to. He said that the Bodhisattva ideal is why it is far less common to go completely crazy at this juncture than in other traditions.

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 07:41 PM

Just to clarify, which of us are you saying is the illusion?Both of us, and neither of us. :P

So, who's Osho, and what is "Bodhisattva ideal"? And, there is no point to hanging on, unless you want to. That's what it really comes down to, isn't it? Doing what you want, but recogizing it for what it really is. Still not terribly comforting.

journyman161

8th February 2007, 07:46 PM

Further on my 'thought'... It seems to me if we are here to just experience, then the idea of the ALL becoming aware but not knowledgeable has legs. So the ALL comes into being & doesn't know itself & creates life to go explore through experience.

So, while we may be here to only experience without any specific purpose, the ALL most definitely has a purpose, even if it is just 'KNOW THYSELF!'

Now there seems to be a point you're missing, & maybe it is why your epiphany seems so bleak. The evidence seems to point at creativity - ie. we don't just experience, we create our experience. We are not here blindly running through lives as recording instruments, we are proactive participants. Recorders would be fine for the task if simple experience is the name of the game; as it is, we seem over-qualified.

This leads me to think that maybe we, in living our lives & experiencing the ALL, are maybe also creating just who the ALL is going to be. Maybe there's a society of ALLs out there somewhere & our ALL is on a journey to make itself & we are the means by which our ALL becomes a decent OverBeing or not.

Our ALL started like a baby, aware but no knowledge - our task, should we decide to accept it, is to have the experiences that will lead to an ALL of Light, not an ALL of Dark.

I simply can't see the reason for our creativity if all we are doing is just recording experiences. It doesn't make sense. It becomes nihilistic, & too much of our experiences suggest there IS a path of Light & a path of Dark.

Now you may think this just means I haven't achieved your enlightenment, & you'd be right, but this is the thought that 'pinged' when I first read this thread.

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 08:04 PM

CFTraveler

8th February 2007, 08:20 PM

Now there seems to be a point you're missing, & maybe it is why your epiphany seems so bleak.No, I don't disagree with what you said. But, none of that is enlightenment. What is pissing me off is that "love" is an illusion. It's not a truth, it's created. It was the last piece I was hanging on to. When that shattered, that's when I went headlong into the Void. Recognizing that everything we seem to "know" is an illusion was the easy part. Giving up the ideal that there is an ideal is the epiphany. The total destruction of the ego includes knowing that love is a creation, it's not a truth, or even a goal. It can be a goal if you want it to be, but that still doesn't make it truth. Yes, but if there is no truth, and if there is no us, it doesn't matter that what we call Love doesn't really exist, does it? Because bliss and joy and all of that is a product of existence, and existence is the illusion. But while you do exist, Love is all that matters, because it's all that really exists. While you believe it. So there is no contradiction.
I think that the despair comes from the belief that there can be existence without Love, but true enlightenment precludes the belief in existence.

journyman161

8th February 2007, 08:21 PM

Maybe we're here to make it Truth?

There must be a reason we can create. Otherwise the ability is unnecessary & a waste. Perhaps you're looking at what IS & not seeing what might be?

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 08:34 PM

CF said:
I think that the despair comes from the belief that there can be existence without Love, but true enlightenment precludes the belief in existence.Exactly. But, the true enlightenment part cannot be attained without the realization that the Source, Itself, is not a Being of love. As Jman said, if I'm interpreting him right, is that the Source may be evolving towards love, but that's not what It Is. The may be part is only a guess. It's not something that you can know. The reality is that we don't know. We can only make educated guesses.

And, it still doesn't remove the sting that you are Alone in the universe. That's the Void. Nothing is "real", because it's only a thought. A thought emanating from the Source, who is, by definition, Alone.

hermes

8th February 2007, 08:52 PM

Does the fact that something may be true on one plane, or point of awareness, neccessarily invalidate those things which are true on other planes?

Being a multidimensional being implies multiple dimensional existence. It does not imply physicality as an illusion, nor does it imply spirituality or 'cosmic oneness' as an illusion, nor as the totality of Truth. We should not get caught in the trap of our awareness defining absolute truth. To do so is to be no different from those who are trapped in their physical existence by their point of awareness, other than location.

star

8th February 2007, 09:05 PM

I need to start reading again. Since I can't even remember how its supposed to be obtained.

I can say, well. Life is an illusion, and everything that means. Even if I don't completely understand it.

That hasen't done it. So I assume I'd need to experience it too, somehow.

I'm betting meditation may or may not help, but I don't know for my specific situation.

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 09:27 PM

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 10:07 PM

I'm on a Yahoo Group of people who went to the Monroe Institute the week I did. Someone decided that we would try partnered exploration. One of the instructors at TMI hid something that was to be the target for the OBE exploration partners.

While OBE, I found a small, white box that had a pearl in it at the astral Institute. Then I heard, "pearl of great price". Ok, I thought that was a bit corny. I hadn't heard that term in years. Turns out, the only thing I got right was that the hidden object was in a white box, but a larger one.

About a week later, I was reading McKenna's book, and that phrase came up in the book. It suddenly dawned on me. "I" was giving "me" a message. And, it was rather profound. The "pearl" is the knowledge of the truth about enlightenment. The "great price" is what you loose...the ego. The realization that the "me", and all the other "me's" are merely illusions. The death of the ego.

Another odd thing...as I was astrally holding the pearl, it started growing a small, silver chain, link by link. I really didn't know what that was about. Now, I'm thinking that it may be the next steps, what comes after enlightenment. And, each step is one link in the chain. And, probably, the chain never ends.

Metatron

8th February 2007, 10:21 PM

Surrender unto yourself and experience yourself fully. There is nothing to move towards or some expression of enlightenment you need to attain. It is already here. When you crumble "Illusion", you are still left with one constant. YOU. No matter what you believe MAYA is, you are "Godforce/Infinite possibilities/The Source/".

"CHOOSE to participate with JOY in the world of sorrows" - Joseph Campbell
He also said another beautiful thing; "Follow your bliss".

Well, this is a ripple in the pond..
Hope you like it.

Love and Bliss :wink:

journyman161

8th February 2007, 10:43 PM

OK... I may be unenlightened but i can recognise when you're going in circles. You can't have enlightenment about 'an illusion of separateness' AND be despondent about it. If the separateness is an illusion then the bit that is feeling down is the bit that is inside the illusion - the rest of 'You' is outside the illusion & knows it is connected.

If your epiphany is bringing you down, maybe it isn't quite right - you seem to still be reacting as the old being, the one inside the life of separateness.

The fact remains, it is only an apparency that everyone else is an illusion - as far as we are concerned, WE EXIST! It is the ALL that may or may not be alone - we, All of We, are maintaining our existence & learning & experiencing in a common framework - there may be differences around the edges, but most of us exist within a central core of Reality.

You are not alone Not if you're still defining 'You' as being within this framework 0- and it seems like you are. If your epiphany was complete, it should take you beyond the things of this life - you might stay around but your basis of operations would 'graduate' to the new paradigm - & that appears not to be the case.

Not sure if it is clear what I'm saying here, but it's basically that if your realisation was really the ultimate in enlightenment, you should be now working from your new reality - & therefore you wouldn't be feeling the lack now of Love etc. If you're feeling the lack, you haven't moved beyond it & therefore the realisation is either only partial or is only a step towards the next bit.

Tom

8th February 2007, 10:43 PM

Osho is an author I happen to be reading now. He is considered a bit controversial.

To rephrase, now that you have accomplished all your goals for yourself you might as well spend the rest of your time helping everyone else. You have to do something with your time, right?

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 11:03 PM

journyman161

8th February 2007, 11:13 PM

In one breath you are 'alone' & we're all illusions, in the next you say separateness is illusion. Seems to me there's a contradiction there. If you're alone, it is an aloneness with a myriad facets of differences - we are all here to experience but we are not here for the same experiences. There is/are reason/s why this is all happening. I think maybe you've come to the first step of a new staircase & it's all a bit bewildering for you. Satori may still be a little way off.

For example, there are many who have had their moments of epiphany who feel connected to everything, a part of the ALL - it is a transcendent experience & in many cases it is not being sought after at the time. Connectedness would seem to be the antithesis of what you're going through, so I wonder where it fits?

Just brushing off such things as 'illusion' doesn't actually answer the question - you might as well use the word 'God'

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 11:34 PM

For example, there are many who have had their moments of epiphany who feel connected to everything, a part of the ALL - it is a transcendent experience & in many cases it is not being sought after at the time. Been there, done that. It's not enlightenment. It was transcendent, it was bliss, it was a big deal. It still wasn't waking up.

In one breath you are 'alone' & we're all illusions, in the next you say separateness is illusion. Seems to me there's a contradiction there.No contradiction. The only thing that is real is the Source. Everything else is an illusion, a creation, a thought. "I" am the Source, "i"am the illusion who is experiencing separateness in a dream.

sublimezg

8th February 2007, 11:54 PM

Might I point out that contradiction is also a made up portion of the illusion. Contradiction cannot exist.

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

~Walt Whitman

Contradiction is no more than a belief to be held.

By the way, I don't believe Tempest is enlightened. She is however on a non stop train wreck of a ride that will either kill her or fling her over the fence she's now teetering on. I say march on!

Tempestinateapot

8th February 2007, 11:57 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you, oh Keeper of All Knowledge. :P

Are you? Enlightened, I mean.

sash

8th February 2007, 11:57 PM

we are all here to experience but we are not here for the same experiences.

That seems to me as one of the key issues at the heart of the whole subject.

Reaching a conclusion such as we are all and therefore the aim is to just experience seems a bit 'anticlimactic' as said before I think. It's almost as though 'now what?'

In removing the layers of the ego the experience becomes deeper on an individual and cosmic level, depending on how many layers a person has removed. It's always going to be just the 'all' but the depth to which that really rings true depends on the state of the ego and the extent of the ongoing projection of the "I".

It is also not always the same flavour of experience, for example, as jman said, sometimes it's a matter of creating and not just experiencing. But yet that creation process is still a result of experiencing yourself more deeply and allowing the creative force to be present.

Feeling or theorizing something about enlightenment cannot be enlightenment, nor can anything that can ever be written. It just 'is'. However that isness is One and being 'Together/One' is Love in my view, and separateness is the opposing force of Love. That is how I get from One to Love/Truth anyway.

sublimezg

8th February 2007, 11:59 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you, oh Keeper of All Knowledge. :P

Are you? Enlightened, I mean.

No, I just recognize you're in almost the exact location I am.

I am

o snap!

Tempestinateapot

9th February 2007, 12:03 AM

Feeling or theorizing something about enlightenment cannot be enlightenment, nor can anything that can ever be written. It just 'is'.Exactly. But, the process of killing the ego can be somewhat explained, maybe not the process itself, but the emotions it brings up. As sublimy said in so many words, the process is not the finish line.

wstein

9th February 2007, 12:04 AM

Jman said:
You can't have enlightenment about an illusion of separateness AND be despondent about it. Yes, you can. It is the final fight of the ego for it's very existence. I haven't finished stomping it down. Gettin' close, but not completely there.

All this stuff about bliss....maybe later. I'm in the middle of a war, here! :twisted:

Tell them, wstein!Exactly! I sent a PM to this effect last night. Although enlightenment is nearly instantaneous, it takes a while to trickle down to all parts of ourselves.

For those following the Osho part of this, IMHO this is where he got stuck. He was enlightened but buried rather than dealt with his ego. Eventually the ego got free and caused the controversy.

CFTraveler

9th February 2007, 12:04 AM

Tempest: Weirdly, that thing I printed in the Love thread is called "The Pearl of Great Price, believe it or not." :shock:
Anyway, you wrote:
Exactly. But, the true enlightenment part cannot be attained without the realization that the Source, Itself, is not a Being of love. As Jman said, if I'm interpreting him right, is that the Source may be evolving towards love, but that's not what It Is. The may be part is only a guess. It's not something that you can know. The reality is that we don't know. We can only make educated guesses.
You are grieving for the loss of what your were attached with.. the idea that what we call(believe) Love is what God is. It's a hard thing to give up, but it's ok to grieve. You are not with anyone here anyway, yet you're with God. The 'being' is the hard part, we're used to (and I sometimes deny this to myself) think of 'being' as ultimate, and all this goes away. But realize this: Even though 'being' is not real, as long as you perceive you're here, it's actual. So love, although not real, is the only real thing here. Even if it's not real at all. If you think of the Buddha (and I know you're not supposed to, if you're enlightened, and I'm not, so I allow myself to) think of all these enlightened beings, who after losing the attachment to the good as well as the bad- were embraced in bliss. Perhaps because they knew that it existed while they thought it did. I know this doesn't make sense now, I'm not sure if I expressed it as I thought it. :roll: .

OK... I may be unenlightened but i can recognise when you're going in circles. You can't have enlightenment about 'an illusion of separateness' AND be despondent about it. If the separateness is an illusion then the bit that is feeling down is the bit that is inside the illusion - the rest of 'You' is outside the illusion & knows it is connected.

If your epiphany is bringing you down, maybe it isn't quite right - you seem to still be reacting as the old being, the one inside the life of separateness.

The fact remains, it is only an apparency that everyone else is an illusion - as far as we are concerned, WE EXIST! It is the ALL that may or may not be alone - we, All of We, are maintaining our existence & learning & experiencing in a common framework - there may be differences around the edges, but most of us exist within a central core of Reality.

You are not alone Not if you're still defining 'You' as being within this framework 0- and it seems like you are. If your epiphany was complete, it should take you beyond the things of this life - you might stay around but your basis of operations would 'graduate' to the new paradigm - & that appears not to be the case.

Not sure if it is clear what I'm saying here, but it's basically that if your realisation was really the ultimate in enlightenment, you should be now working from your new reality - & therefore you wouldn't be feeling the lack now of Love etc. If you're feeling the lack, you haven't moved beyond it & therefore the realisation is either only partial or is only a step towards the next bit. This may or may not be true, but she got a glimpse, and is realizing that something that was very important to her just went away. Maybe not, but it is where she is at now.

Tempestinateapot

9th February 2007, 12:21 AM

You are witnessing the annihilation of an ego. Not a pretty picture. But, eventually necessary for everyone. The bliss stuff has no part in this. It can't. If it does, it's just ego rearing it's head again. The ego wants bliss. It may be a side effect later, but it's not the real deal in this portion of the show.

Miss "co-dependent" is pretty astute. :D

hermes

9th February 2007, 04:30 AM

You are witnessing the annihilation of an ego. Not a pretty picture. But, eventually necessary for everyone.

Is it really? I'm not so sure.

To dissolve into the oneness completely, is to return the gift of your creation.

If we are to destroy our ego, our sense of self, free will, the ability to reason, to think, to feel, to learn, and to grow... If we are to simply be in a state of oneness with the universe and The Source... revert back to where we began... how would this effect our actions as spiritual beings (forget the fact we would sit around drooling over ourselves all day)?

Most people either underestimate their value and place in the universe, or they try to let everyone else know how special they are. In either case, their hearts are wounded and they fall short of their potential.

Enlightenment is nothing more than filling yourself with the Light. Enlightenment is nothing less than filling yourself with the Light. And I'm not talking about a 60 watt'er either.

If we destroy our egos, our selves, how can we be filled with the Light? Enlightenment seems to require a vessel to fill.

Connecting to Source does not necessarily require the destruction of our ego. Different traditions believe different things. Some believe that dissolving ourselves and our desires, releasing lifetimes of karma, and meditation on nothingness is the path. Some say that refining, purifying, and aligning ourselves with the divine is the path. And some say realizing there is no path is the path. They are all right. The question is, the path to where, and where is it you wish to travel, and what is it you wish to do? We all need to find out for ourselves our own paths. If that path is to dissolve into oneness, so be it. If it lies somewhere else, so be it. There is no wrong or right absolute path to take. There is only what gets you closer to your potential, and what takes you farther away from it.

If you reach a point where you think you've maxed out, hit the top, melded with all that is, and achieved the Ultimate Sublime and Complete Union with the Source of All That Is, Was, and Will Be, then you most likely have not. It is an endless path, go further and go deeper. If you feel a lack of love, then that indicates something you need to change. For all these paths and philosophies over the eons all describe 'The Source' in a very similar fasion. But there are many places beneath that source where absence of emotion, passion, love, hope, peace, and many other things are devoid in different manners.

Don't stop climbing. Never stop climbing. (Sounds like a ROPE technique, good philosophy)

Tempestinateapot

9th February 2007, 05:58 AM

You don't even understand what I'm going through, and yet you feel that you can judge it? Everything that you said was an opinion, a judgement. It's surrounded with pretty words, but it's a judgement none the less. I don't really care, but it seemed obvious to point it out. And, it's also obvious that when I say that, I am also judging. The difference is, that I know what I'm doing.

Not every path leads back to the Source. Some just go in circles. Most just go in circles. That's what incarnating is all about. I'm talking about not incarnating. As long as you are in love with what you are doing or believe, you are asleep. And, you will continue incarnating. If that's what winds your clock, do it. But, don't mistake that that is being awake. There is only one path to being awake. All the other paths are still living the dream. Pretty dreams, nice dreams, but dreams. And, eventually, everyone will walk this lonely path. Without all the bells and whistles and pretty words that only obscure the truth.

I'm not here to argue. I'm am here to process. If it turns you off, don't look. If I see a falacy in something someone says, I will point it out. Not for the sake of arguing, but for the sake of my process. Seeing other's arguments just clarifies what I know is happening.

sash

9th February 2007, 06:29 AM

when we say 'many paths' leading to 'one place' sometimes it can be effective to view this as on/off awareness. If some part of a path turns a part of your awareness 'on' then it's genuine, otherwise it is circular.

rather than eliminating/sublimating needs, desires, passions etc. it appears that going behind those essences brings a greater awareness of them. Letting go attachment to them and going behind them, and then going behind that which is behind them leads to more awareness.

the only way past illusion is to see the thing generating the unawareness, which is evidently the mirror reflection of the truth itself. In the presence (awareness) of the generating truth the illusion no longer facilities its purpose and will cease to be present.

there is either aware or unaware, on/off, no in-between, yet to find 'the path' each person must first find their own path - they are inseparable.

Tom

9th February 2007, 06:43 AM

Either you become one with everything or you must stand by and watch everything and everyone be destroyed - including yourself. The funny thing is that these two approaches, if you take either all the way to its conclusion, will lead to the same place. Before that point, it is impossible to combine them. It is like if you go north or south you will go all the way around the world and meet up with the people who went the other way. The problem is that most people do not pick one and run all the way with it. That's why so many people are only going around in circles. They may even put in a lot of miles, but that is no way to finish the job. Really, until they get to the point where they must go all the way or die trying, it is not a good idea to begin. If you go the Oneness route your tool will be love. If you go the other way, your tool is Awareness. The path of Awareness was my choice, or really it chose me. There is a technique called being the watcher. The idea is that no matter what thoughts and emotions run through your mind and whatever the physical body signals, you should be aware of it while it is happening and at the same time be aware that you are having that experience. It is not the awareness of the contents of your mind which is important, but being aware of being aware. It is like lucid dreaming, knowing that you are dreaming during the dream and the stronger your awareness is the more lucid you are within the dream. It creates a gap, because anything you can be aware of is separate from you. You are not your thoughts, your emotions, or your body. With practice the gap grows bigger and you experience it more of the time. The gap gets to be so large that there is only awareness left. It takes over the watcher and what is watched. Everything falls away at once and there is only the experience of No-Thingness. This also happens to be the same experience you get if you take Oneness to its extreme where all the parts have merged into the whole and there is nothing distinct from anything or anyone.

Robert Bruce

9th February 2007, 09:51 AM

Well put.

This can be accepted, even grasped, intellectually, but its only real when its 'realized, when it becomes a part of your being.

First step is to 'realize' that life is an illustion.

Then comes the great observer within.

Then you start to realize that you are, at your deepest roots, connected to the source, and in fact are a part of the source, and in truth that you 'are' the source.

In the same way that you cannot divide a finger from your body as being separate from you, you cannot be separate from the source.

Then comes the realization that brings it all together, that everyone and everything else is also a part of you, and a part of the source.

It is absurdly simple. This is why its so hard to realize. Most people only start to get it when they have examined every other possibility.

The closest and most accessible path to the source is through your own self, through your own body and mind and life.

No holy person or place can do any more than give one directions or a taste of realization. Because the source lies within you.

There is no other way. This is absolute logic.

The definition of suffering is to be separated from the source. The end of suffering comes when one reconnets to the source. And the source is with, where its always been. So the separation was in itself an illusion, albeit a painful one.

Robert

journyman161

9th February 2007, 11:25 AM

Mysteries there are in the Cosmos that unveiled fill the world with their light. Let he who would be free from the bonds of darkness first divine the material from the immaterial, the fire from the earth; for know you that as earth descends to earth, so also fire ascends unto fire and becomes one with fire. He who knows the fire that is within himself shall ascend unto the eternal fire and dwell in it eternally.

Fire, the inner fire, is the most potent of all force, for it overcometh all things and penetrates to all things of the Earth. Man supports himself only on that which resists. So Earth must resist man else he existeth not.

All eyes do not see with the same vision, for to one an object appears of one form and colour and to a different eye of another. So also the infinite fire, changing from colour to colour, is never the same from day to day.

Thus, speak I, THOTH, of my wisdom, for a man is a fire burning bright through the night; never is quenched in the veil of the darkness, never is quenched by the veil of the night.

Into menÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s hearts, I looked by my wisdom, found them not free from the bondage of strife. Free from the toils, your fire, O my brother, lest it be buried in the shadow of night!

Hark you, O man, and list to this wisdom: where do name and form cease? Only in consciousness, invisible, an infinite force of radiance bright. The forms that you create by brightening they vision are truly effects that follow your cause.

Man is a star bound to a body, until in the end, he is freed through his strife. Only by struggle and toiling your utmost shall the star within thee bloom out in new life. He who knows the commencement of all things, free is his star from the realm of night.

Remember, O man, that all which exists is only another form of that which exists not. Everything that has being is passing into yet other being and you thyself are not an exception

sublimezg

9th February 2007, 03:58 PM

In order to be effective truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt.

~Wei Wu Wei

9th February 2007, 05:19 PM

When it comes to discussing enlightenment, I'm an oddball.

Often, what I have to say in the matter people are not ready to hear. They fight my words as if I'm backing them into a corner and putting all that they believe to a certain kind of death.

So I say right now, if you don't like what I'm about to say, you probably might want to forget I said anything at all.

The word enlightenment in of itself means "having knowledge and/or understanding." In order to realize many of the things that people in this thread have discussed, a certain amount of knowledge, understanding, and even experience must be acquired in order to get that enlightenment.

Tempest, for example, went into a thread about killing your inner Buddha. I will use that for purely example purposes only. To start with, why is that Buddha there? What is it trying to accomplish and what exactly does it do? Mayhaps you will find that the answer to the question of that Buddha isn't as black and white as it was assumed to be. I don't believe this was covered in the many posts in this thread, but enlightenment is not removing obstacles from your path, it's understanding these obstacles first to see if removing them is necessary. Sometimes people see things in themselves they call obstacles because they don't understand them, and because these things appear to be getting in the way of what they consider development they simply throw it in the garbage without truly trying to gain any insight as to the who what where when why and how of the object in question.

The ego is a prime example of this. "In order to become enlightened, you must kill the ego," it is often said. The ego is considered our identity, a complex combination of elements and values that all in all is what we consider to be "Me." Often it is said that by nurturing or identifying yourself with your ego is detrimental to your development simply because you have filters and a certain set of ideals in place based on experiences. These experiences can define how you see certain things and give you a jaded view, it is said.

The truth of the matter is, you are you no matter how you choose to try and ignore yourself. What is a human who does not define himself? What if you try to understand the ego proper instead of simply labeling it as something detrimental to your being? Again, enlightenment is knowledge and understanding, it's really as simple as that. In order to to gain knowledge and understanding you have to quit defining things and labeling things so easily. Questions must be asked and answers must be found in order to truly be enlightened to a situation. Enlightenment doesn't come on a silver platter, it comes with time, patience, and a fair bit of understanding and experience.

A second thing I wanted to bring up is the idea that "all paths lead to one," and "logic always shows you the one true answer," these two might not seem interconnected at first glance but to me it appears this (what I consider to be,) extremely flawed way of thinking is both detrimental to true understanding and very misleading as well. (I would be pleased to debate this point, I'm not trying to flame anyone here just expressing my own ideas.)

Lets say, for example, that the question "does time travel exist," came up. Let's say that one person wanted to put this logical argument into place: If time travel existed then we would be seeing people from the future. Another person wanted to use the logical argument If time travel existed someone could potentially project to the past, view an event he or she knows nothing about, and then confirm it later with documents.

What we have above is two logical arguments, which one is correct?

The answer is both of them are. Perhaps it is possible that one can project into the past but not actually travel through time, or perhaps one cannot travel through time physically but forget the astral part of the equation. Any way you look at it, the logic on both sides is quite sound.

This brings to mind the "all paths lead to one," as clearly shown above, two people came to a logical conclusion, but not the same logical conclusion. If all paths lead to one, then something definitely doesn't add up there.

Let's take another example. Let's say someone wanted to find god. One person decides Christianity is his route and goes the gnostic Christian path. Another individual tries to find the true divine spirit of god which is above and beyond the universe, in both cases they are finding god. In my humblest opinion both are correct, one finds god in the universe around him, the other finds it through soul traveling. One ends up merging his consciousness with the universe, and the other ends up stopping his flow of incarnation and lives on forever as a spirit in a high plane of existence. These are not two different paths leading to the same thing in my opinion, even though technically you can say both lead to god.

There are many other points here but I felt these were key. Feel free to ignore or politely debate as you so choose :D

Tempestinateapot

9th February 2007, 08:43 PM

Tom said:
Really, until they get to the point where they must go all the way or die trying, it is not a good idea to begin.Right on, Tom. This is what's happening to me. I "understood" all the concepts. I understood that everything is One. I understood there is no right or wrong. I understood the Observer. I understood the ego. Go back and look at any of my posts (well, not all) and this theme runs through them. Now I see that wasn't enlightenment. That was playing with enlightenment. Acknowledgement and Knowing... two completely different things. I am diving into the Knowing. And, it hurts. It hurts like a bitch.

Imagine being in my place. Having a wonderful life, family, friends. Living the lie and happy to do it. Asleep. Then, imagine that they are not real. Seriously, they are not real. I am alone. And, imagine that love is not real. It can't be. It's a creation. It's part of the duality. It's an illusion. You can't hang your hat on it. Which is what I have been doing all my life. Hanging my imaginary hat on an imaginary love concept. If God is love, then no-love is the opposite. That's the logical conclusion in the duality. There always has to be an opposite. The truth is, there is no opposite. God is not love and God is not-no love. The Source just IS. No duality, no opposites. Easy to say. Maddening when you push through to that. This is the fast track to enlightenment, and it's hell. I know the hell will cease. I can see that. I can see that pain, hell, and all it's cousins are illusions. Saying it or believing it is NOT getting it. Belief must die. It's an illusion. One of the worst. It keeps you trapped like nothing else can. It's seductive, it's alluring, it promises comfort and bliss. It soothes the ego. It's a friggin' lie! You might as well have your foot nailed down to the ground and run in circles. That's what belief does. You can make it make sense, you can pretty up the lie, but in the end, it's a lie.

Egos, egos, egos, everywhere I look. Empty shells of people puffed up with their importance. My eyes are clearing, clarity is my companion. People say nice concepts, and I'm sure they really believe them. I don't. Not anymore. They are lies to draw you into complacency. I see through the egos. All of your metaphysical practices, your rituals, your dependence on love are fake. They have no substance. They are not real. The truth is stark. You kill the lies, one at a time as they appear. Clarity becomes clearer. I am nothing. I have no substance. This is not depression. This is liberation! This is it. This is the real deal! I am ego, and I have no more substance than the wind. Kill the ego, burn the ego, down with the ego. Madness you say? Probably. But, in that madness lies the truth. Nothing matters. Not family, not friends, not love. They are wisps floating away in the wind.

I see it. I see the other side. Out of the death of the ego rises the I AM! I Am alone, but I AM Everythng! I see the creation of love, and I see that it is good. It is an illusion, but it is a fun illusion. I can play with it, but it is not what I AM. Never again will I mistake the illusion for the reality. You can't go back, you can't forget, you are awake. Must keep pressing forward.

I have spoken to Robert about this. I have offered to step down as administrator. I couldn't reconcile what I'm going through with what he is teaching. Ready for the kicker? You sure? Robert understands. He's been through it. He agrees with everything I've written. He Knows. He's come out the other side. If there is nothing to do, if everything is an illusion, then do what makes you happy. But, I won't, for one second, ever again believe any of this is real. It's a creation. And, a damn fine one at that.

Tempestinateapot

9th February 2007, 09:16 PM

I received a pm from someone who was concerned that I was offended by something that was said. Just so we are clear, I am not offended in what anyone says in the least. I'm more writing to myself. It's as if everything someone says to me is reflected back, where I can look at it closer. For some reason, that takes the emotion out of it and helps me to process it with more clarity. I encourage you to continue posting and say anything that you want. Please don't be offended if I argue. I am really arguing with myself. :D

CFTraveler

9th February 2007, 10:04 PM

Egos, egos, egos, everywhere I look. Empty shells of people puffed up with their importance. My eyes are clearing, clarity is my companion. People say nice concepts, and I'm sure they really believe them. I don't. Not anymore. They are lies to draw you into complacency. I see through the egos. All of your metaphysical practices, your rituals, your dependence on love are fake. They have no substance. They are not real. The truth is stark. You kill the lies, one at a time as they appear. Clarity becomes clearer. I am nothing. I have no substance. This is not depression. This is liberation! This is it. This is the real deal! I am ego, and I have no more substance than the wind. Kill the ego, burn the ego, down with the ego. Madness you say? Probably. But, in that madness lies the truth. Nothing matters. Not family, not friends, not love. They are wisps floating away in the wind. Not really. There are no wisps. Nothing matters because from the point of view of infinity (or whatever you call it- I don't much care for 'enlightenment' itself.) there is nothing to matter. But from the point of view of the illusion, Love is the only thing that matters. Because now we're not talking about infinity, or anything like it.

I see it. I see the other side. Out of the death of the ego rises the I AM! I Am alone, but I AM Everythng! I see the creation of love, and I see that it is good. It is an illusion, but it is a fun illusion. I can play with it, but it is not what I AM. Never again will I mistake the illusion for the reality. You can't go back, you can't forget, you are awake. Must keep pressing forward. I got news for you- You're not alone, 'cause 'you're not'. Being is also an illusion, so you're not. You don't have to kill anything because it doesn't exist. Since nothing exists, you don't have to fight against, you don't have to reject anything. Just know. That's all.

I have spoken to Robert about this. I have offered to step down as administrator. I couldn't reconcile what I'm going through with what he is teaching. Ready for the kicker? You sure? Robert understands. He's been through it. He agrees with everything I've written. He Knows. He's come out the other side. If there is nothing to do, if everything is an illusion, then do what makes you happy. But, I won't, for one second, ever again believe any of this is real. It's a creation. And, a damn fine one at that. *slaps you upside the head* That's the thing- you create the illusion, so maybe it's time to make it and happy illusion. Love may not be real in an ultimte way, but in this illusion that we are perceiving it's the only thing there is. So use it to create. You know it's an illusion- but it doesn't matter, does it? Feeling love and creating love doesn't unspill the milk. And yes, you'll feel it too.

filipcza

9th February 2007, 11:09 PM

Tempestinateapot,

I've heard about this way of seeing things before and I must admit, it feels kind of scary.

It feels like you are in this house where all kinds of stuff is happening until you realize that you are alone in the house, there's no one else but you and there has never been no one else! You just thought there was and that created your illusion of things happening.

That feels like a major shock to realize.

How did you come to your clarity? Was it sudden, or did it come gradually?

Would you take the "blue pill" now if you had the chance? (probably not..)

-Pete

kiwibonga

9th February 2007, 11:26 PM

When I got done reading the Monroe trilogy, I clicked out for a few hours, and when I came to, I really expected Jesus to barge into my room screaming "YOU GOT PUNK'D!"

Enlightenment is depressing.

Tempestinateapot

9th February 2007, 11:41 PM

*slaps you upside the head* That's the thing- you create the illusion, so maybe it's time to make it and happy illusion. Love may not be real in an ultimte way, but in this illusion that we are perceiving it's the only thing there is. So use it to create. You know it's an illusion- but it doesn't matter, does it? Feeling love and creating love doesn't unspill the milk. And yes, you'll feel it too.Slaps you right back! :lol: I know, CF, I know. But, it appears this is something I have to go through. I am watching all of this from another place. I see my empty ego fighting for survival. I am calm, and I am at war, alll at the same time. I agree with everything you said. But, this is different. I can't stop this process, it's got a life of it's own.

How did you come to your clarity? Was it sudden, or did it come gradually?

Would you take the "blue pill" now if you had the chance? (probably not..)

This came on gradually. It's something I've been playing with for years. In the last one to two years, it's been moving faster. Then, my son encouraged me to read Jed McKenna's books. Thanks a lot, zg. :twisted: It's like everything went into hyper-drive, and I wasn't believing this stuff anymore, I'm living it.

Would I do this if I knew? Probably not at this point. I'll let you know later. :wink:

Tom

9th February 2007, 11:49 PM

When I read Jed McKenna's first book it scared the hell out of me and it made me really angry. I alternated the whole book between scared and angry. It was great. After a few months I decided to read it again in the hopes that I would have the same reaction as the first time, but it didn't work out that way. His second book seemed light and funny by the time I got to it. I can't wait for his third book. The trouble is that when I try to go back over his first two books they actually bore me now.

Wolf_Thor

10th February 2007, 01:04 AM

It's only depressing when Mr (or Ms) Ego says "ah ha, I finally figured it out... and it sucks". Well, guess what Mr (or Ms) Ego? You don't know sh!t, so get over yourself and throw away all of the things you think you know. Because that's the only way you'll ever get to the Truth.

Mr Ego, don't you see the pattern? You kill everything you touch! You want so many things. But when you get those things, you just suck the life out of them. You even suck the life out of LIFE. You need to grow-up little man. I don't want to kill you, because through you, I am given the opportunity to grow and expand. But you really do need to stop thinking that you've finally solved the puzzle. Guess what? The puzzle is too big for you. :o Celebrate that! You really wouldn't want it any other way, although you may think that you do.

kiwibonga

10th February 2007, 02:02 AM

Why are you rejecting the ego?

Do you understand that you are here exactly because the way to "spiritual evolution" is the ego?

Imagine that life is a tunnel. A lot of people are trying to reach the light at the end of the tunnel (what they believe is enlightenment). But what they don't realize is that if there is an end to the tunnel, then there is also an entrance. The end opposite of the light is also the light. By rejecting the ego, you end up where you came from, and that is not evolution, it is stagnation.

Cherish the ego, it is the only reason you even bothered to become a human...

Tom

10th February 2007, 02:53 AM

If you have half a brain you must know by now that we are not all using the word "ego" to mean the same thing. The original word ego was in the context of Id and Superego. Ego is the thing which lets us function in this world. Id is the part of us whose needs continue to go un-met and who continues to live in pain. Superego is our ideals and our highest qualities. Ego is that which bridges the gap between who we are and who we feel we should be in an ideal world. Those of us who want to kill "Ego" really mean we want to just kill Id and be done with it. Those who want to save Ego from being bashed and who recognize its value are right to do so, but they should get it through their thick skulls that the term Ego is now synonymous with Id and not with the proper functioning of the Ego. Seriously, do you thick skulled idiots still think that the word gay means happy, too?

10th February 2007, 03:04 AM

Tom

10th February 2007, 03:10 AM

wstein

10th February 2007, 09:07 AM

A fire burns its course. Some flee, some try to put it out, some try to save the victims, some deny its happening, some are frozen with fear. Some come through unscathed, some never knew it happened, some suffer lung damage, some get scarred on the outside, some don't make it. Its hard to predict which in the first group will be which in the latter group.

In the end, those who were touched by and survived the fire do not question if something burned.

Aunt Clair

10th February 2007, 12:43 PM

Is anyone of us truly enlightened ? I don't think so .

I think we can bend the parameters and parrot that an avatar like Buddha was "The Enlightened One "in comparison to other human beings.

But he said both that he had attained enlightenment under the Boddhi Tree and that he was not enlightened . This is not a paradox but a reality that he had attained the enlightened state briefly and having done so realised that the illusions of the physical prevented a live human from walking within this expanded consciousness continuously while in the body .

To me, to "kill the Buddha" within is to smote the negative ego , the illusion believer who sits stubbornly under some tree waiting for nirvana to find him . It is to find within the magician the ability to unite within trance to the source albeit in a temporal nature. It is to realise that sitting in meditation is the key to a lock which may be turned again and again opening oneself to percieve that illusive treasure which yet remains too difficult to carry into one's physical life and is lost when one tries .

Enlightenment is like the river , it is the journey not the destination that quenches the soul and renews it with the temporal reunion with source .

Thanks for a thought provoking thread friends .

Tempestinateapot

10th February 2007, 08:49 PM

Sash, now I can see why you wanted a thread about ego. :D But, it seems to me that once you get what this is all about, there isn't any need to talk about it again. Even as I write, I'm losing the desire to write about it. It's not something that can be argued away or really even defined. Fun to try, but kind of useless, really. You either get it or you don't, huh?

wstein said:
In the end, those who were touched by and survived the fire do not question if something burned.

CFTraveler

10th February 2007, 09:02 PM

Play nice, men- There's no 'wrong' or 'right' here- only perception.

star

10th February 2007, 09:43 PM

Maybe you can answer this question, or maybe not but its interesting me. If you think that we incarnate to become enlightened in one form or another then when you kick the bucket you think your going to... what?

Am I making sense?

Tempestinateapot

10th February 2007, 10:13 PM

If you think that we incarnate to become enlightened in one form or another then when you kick the bucket you think your going to... what? Not sure if you're asking me or someone else. I'm also not sure that we incarnate to become enlightened. That's an assumption, which may not have any basis.

Well, here's my guess, for what it's worth. If you are incarnating on earth, chances are you haven't woken up, or are in the process. If you physically die while asleep (meaning not having attained enlightenment), you will have whatever range of possibilities you expect or are drawn to vibrationally. Muslims will go to Muslim heaven, Christians will go to Christian heaven, metaphysical people go to metaphysical heaven, bad boy's go to bad boy's hell. :D From there, depending on what your vibration does, you may re-incarnate, become a guide, or whatever winds your clock and you believe. The possibilities are probably endless.

If you physically die enlightened, kind of the same thing. You can do whatever you want. Reincarnate and remain enlightened to help other's wake up. Remain as a spirit and become a guide to humans. Become a god, and create a whole new universe. Or, drop all semblance of personality, ego, desire to help "others" and go back to Being the Source.

These are all guesses. No way to really know.

10th February 2007, 10:45 PM

Tempestinateapot

10th February 2007, 11:07 PM

Tempestinateapot

10th February 2007, 11:14 PM

Belief is a good one, because it's emotionally charged. and emotional nonsense drowns out rational sense. There are many ways in which ego keeps us from seeing the obvious. McKenna

There is no society, there is no future, there is no world. Stop being a schmuck. It's all a lie. Burn it all.

"And, that's something you did?"

Yes.

"Why?"

For the only possible reason why anyone would ever do it. Because I absolutely, positively couldn't not do it. McKenna

Tom

10th February 2007, 11:18 PM

It is called waking up because it is like the usual sort of waking up. You then know that the dream experience you were having was a dream, and it doesn't matter what anyone else says. You know the story line in the dream was real and vivid while you were caught up in the experience, but after you wake up you can choose to set is aside. In terms of the actual experience, though, I'd compare it more with lucid dreaming. Have you ever had lucid dreams where you chose to try to explain to the characters in the dream that it is just a dream and they shouldn't care so much about the story line? I have. A couple of them even learned to fly in the dream better than I could and they just went their own way rather than staying to help me to fly better. It really annoyed me.

Tempestinateapot

10th February 2007, 11:33 PM

It really annoyed me.But, Tom, you left out the punchline. There is no "me" to be annoyed. :wink:

journyman161

10th February 2007, 11:55 PM

There is the 'Me' that is the ALL, the Source. The one we're here trying to define by experience. I must admit I am a little puzzled at how you're taking on the isolation of something that, so far, you haven't achieved, even if you're on the path to achieving it.

I'm a little concerned actually - somehow my impression of what it would mean to make the leap to Beingness doesn't include the feeling of negativeness this seems to have brought upon you. I may have it wrong, but this doesn't seem a pleasant time for you, & while growth can be painful, this seems a little too far into the darker side of things.

Would you feel such despair(?) if you were making a step forward? If this is what we can all look forward to, I think the Source is going to be stillborn - there has to be something more positive for us to be going through all this experiencing. A reward that turns to ashes in the mouth will have Life rejecting advancement altogether.

There's a book by Greg Bear called Songs of Earth & Power... in it the main character goes through a growth phase & is shown a path to completeness involving being accepting of the aloneness of a Being. It almost destroys him before he realises it is a false awakening & that the connections are important!

I've read back across this thread & I can't help but wonder if you're into a red-herring path, that this is a step you have to get through to a new awakening to do with connections rather than separateness.

And it seems to be purely speculation on your part that the Source is alone - unless you have a source of knowledge now that makes you into the completion of the Source, that would appear to be something that cannot be known by us.

Tempestinateapot

11th February 2007, 12:57 AM

I am not in despair. I am liberated. You are projecting your own fears on me. I have nothing to fear left. It's all good. If you understood, you would have no reason to worry about me.

Tom

11th February 2007, 01:33 AM

Even Jed admits to having the experience of being annoyed in the second book. He was in California at a dinner party and he was already a bit annoyed before he even got there because the guy who was driving wouldn't shut up about how his group was living the ultra spiritual life and investing in green companies and recycling everything. Then he lost his temper and gave that long lecture at the party and left abruptly. That was when he decided to go to New York. He wanted to get as far away from California as he could, I think. :) He said at some point, I'm not sure which book, that he tends to get himself stuck in situations he'd prefer not to when he is making decisions while overly tired. The Bhagavad Gita discussion group was my other favorite, where he interrupted the meeting to explain that Krishna was lying to Arjuna.

Tempestinateapot

11th February 2007, 01:49 AM

Everywhere is this perfection like a clear note sweetly sounded, and the only thing that can ruin it and make it sour is the attempt to improve it, and the only thing that does that is ego.

from McKenna's bookWhich means that your annoyance is perfect, just as it is.

Now I know the meaning of my samadhi experience. It isn't about the bliss. The meaning is that there is no meaning. Everything is perfect just as it is. I knew that, but my ego wanted to create all kinds of things to explain it all, to make it meaningful. It is just one of many experiences, not better, not worse, merely an experience.

Tom

11th February 2007, 04:12 AM

http://www.searchwithin.org/download/re ... rquist.pdf (http://www.searchwithin.org/download/realization_steven_norquist.pdf)

The phrase "experience without an experiencer" was very helpful for me. I realized that I was caught up in resistance that was not necessary, because the experiencer I thought I was experiencing was just another type of experience without an experiencer. For that matter the resistance itself was just another experience without an experiencer. That meant that I could take my resistance or leave it, but the important thing was to acknowledge what it was I was doing. Have you ever tried to resist something in full awareness of it? The whole point of resisting something is to avoid being aware of it. :)

wstein

11th February 2007, 04:34 AM

Would you feel such despair(?) if you were making a step forward? If this is what we can all look forward to, I think the Source is going to be stillborn - there has to be something more positive for us to be going through all this experiencing. A reward that turns to ashes in the mouth will have Life rejecting advancement altogether. Despair is the most common reaction to this particular realization. All that I know of who have had this realization consider it a step forward (after the initial shock wears off). Each individual path is different and so it might may be a step forward, backward, or sideways for you.

There is no reason anything HAS to be, positive or otherwise. Sorry, there is no reward either. As should be obvious by now, several who posted on this thread have lived past the despair and gone onto other things. For some, they are 'stillborn', for others its just a beginning.

11th February 2007, 05:40 AM

Spec, I covered all that in this thread. Wake up from the illusion that "you" exist. "Spec" does not exist. Only the Source exists, all else is a creation that in actuality is merely a thought of the Source. The Source is alone. Nobody's home anywhere else. Everything is one big dream...including the illusion that "God is love". God is not love, God is everything. And, everything is an illusion. God/Source is just I AM or Being. Source doesn't give a rat's ass about your puppy, except for the sake of the experience. Love is grand, love is wonderful, but it's not the Source. It's the Source's illusion. Bah, this is impossible to explain. It has to be known.

I'm afraid to say this really doesn't cover any of my questions, which I have put up for your benefit rather than mine truth be told.

You partially explained what it is a bit, yes, but in order to know and understand what it is fully you are going to need to tell me where it comes from. You also did not answer the questions, at least not in full.

I asked how does it work, and why does it need to happen. These are two key questions I ask of everyone who defines their experiences in the manner I believe you are doing.

You state, for example, that it is the source. The source of what? Explain this source, and explain it's dynamics.

What you are describing is a common theme in mysticism. I have experienced it myself, if you ask enough questions you will start getting some answers, and you will start learning there is a much bigger picture involved than the one you seem to want to be believing.

What you seem to be doing is falling into the trap of "This was a powerful experience thus it must be real." This can, in my own experience, be an extremely dangerous and detrimental thing to do. I am not saying that is IS, but it POTENTIALLY is. On one hand you have something similar in finding your soul mate, on the other you have drugs which can induce states of mind at the cost of your spirit and health.

An example that might strike a truer cord would be when people who are dying of the cold feel suddenly warm and are being lulled to sleep. The experience of that warmth is one of the most joyful things a lot of these people have said they have felt, but the fact is that it's lulling them into a false sense of security and they die because of it.

You need to be very careful when interpreting said experiences and sudden bursts of knowledge. In my experience enlightenment doesn't come cheap! It always has a price, be it hard work or accumulating experiences, or the threat of being risky. This is why I asked you what it is. Is it an idea? A physical thing? Questions of all sorts should be asked, answers should be found. Logical reasoning is key here.

This is all my own experience, you can freely ignore it or take parts of it at will, I just thought I would throw this your way out of concern.

Tempestinateapot

11th February 2007, 05:55 AM

11th February 2007, 06:10 AM

wstein

11th February 2007, 09:38 AM

11th February 2007, 03:45 PM

I'm afraid to say this really doesn't cover any of my questions, which I have put up for your benefit rather than mineMy questions are over. I don't need to think about it anymore, I know the answers. Once again, if you understood this, you would not worry about me. There is nothing to worry about.
Actually I think I understand perfectly having been through several similar experiences before. Please read the rest of my post and you will understand my concerns, I don't believe it's fair to only read the first couple sentences and assume the rest is garbage. You seem to be taking it personally, that she (anyone) won't answer your questions. Note I said 'seem'. No one is required to answer your questions (or anyone else's).

I understand that you are concerned. I was concerned too. Your warning has been issued, but probably not in a way that can be easily received.

You claim to 'understand perfectly having been through several similar experiences'. Yet don't seem to realize/remember that it takes some time after such a world shattering to realize that something remains. Even if all the old questions are answered or irrelevant, new questions will arise.

That was in fact the last attempt I was going to make. I seem to take it personally because I care. The fact of the matter is that after helping people for so many years with depossession and other spiritual matters I get used to people not listening and then later falling into their own mental trap because of it ;)

If I am wrong in what I am trying to warn against all is well and good, but the warning, I felt, is entirely necessary. Especially if others decide to follow in these footsteps without a thought for the possible consequences.

Tom

11th February 2007, 04:31 PM

Tempestinateapot

11th February 2007, 05:59 PM

"Peace that passeth understanding". Yes. Something has changed. I can't quite put my finger on it. Everything seems wonderful. Even arguments are fascinating. I can't pick sides. I have no opinion. I look at a post and know how I would have answered it before. I can't answer now. It seems too petty and it seems too important. I can't formulate an answer because there is no answer. It's all good, even the bad. I want to sit in a corner and contemplate the wall. It's too beautiful. It makes me want to cry with the joy of it. I have nothing to say. There is nothing to say. Will this end? Does it need to end? Does it matter? How do you function in a state like this? When the smallest thing is important and the biggest thing is unimportant. Words. Words get in the way. They can't express this. This is beyond expression.

journyman161

11th February 2007, 07:15 PM

*grins*

*looks for wall*

*realises can't even see wall yet*

*goes back to the playing field*

Take care TiaTP, Be Well!

CFTraveler

11th February 2007, 07:30 PM

Tom

11th February 2007, 08:04 PM

All experiences do pass. That's the problem with anything that has a definite beginning and definite causes which brought it about. That's what makes this different. This peace is the sky behind the clouds. It is the screen the movie gets projected on to. Sometimes it is harder to see than other times, but it is always there in the background for everyone. It is the peace that passeth understanding because there is nothing to think about. You just be it. You don't even have it. It is what happens when you stop trying so hard just to hold yourself together.

Tempestinateapot

11th February 2007, 11:04 PM

Spec said:
If I am wrong in what I am trying to warn against all is well and good, but the warning, I felt, is entirely necessary. Especially if others decide to follow in these footsteps without a thought for the possible consequences.Do you know how cute you are? I love you, SD. Don't worry, there are no consequences.

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 10:40 AM

I watched the Grammy's 5 times in a row tonight. I couldn't get over how incredible all the music and dancing was. My wolf tripped me today and hurt my leg. The pain was so cool. It was like I was watching someone else in pain. And, it didn't matter. He is amazing and stares deep into my eyes with the greatest love I've ever seen. I sound like an idiot and I don't care.

12th February 2007, 02:54 PM

Ryan2007

12th February 2007, 05:27 PM

I love this thread!
Or is that just an illusion?
I have so many replies to this thread but I have no time.
Is having no time an illusion too?
Hrmmmmm

I think that if we have time left, here on this Earth, in this wonderful mystery, that we should pick a path with heart and tread it, until our time is up.

And if there is one love I will say will never be an illusion to me, it is the love for this Earth, whom without its sustenance and nourishment, there would be no life, no support base, from which to strike out into infinity from.

Just a few thoughts, I could ramble endlessy, given enough time, but I have to get back to the illusion of bringing home a paycheck, A.K.A . work.
:lol:

Tom

12th February 2007, 06:08 PM

There are risks involved in browsing this thread as a bystander. It is one of those situations where you should watch what you wish for because you might get it.

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 07:03 PM

Ryan said:
And if there is one love I will say will never be an illusion to me, it is the love for this Earth, whom without its sustenance and nourishment, there would be no life, no support base, from which to strike out into infinity from. I am grateful for the earth, I walk in gratitude. But, it is still an illusion. Everything in the creation is an illusion. Enjoy it, yes. But, don't count on it. As beautiful as the earth is, Gaia can bite your ass off. Witness the poverty and misery around the earth....earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, drought. Live in the illusion, but don't be fooled by it. The earth will burn away when the sun starts changing. Then, what will the people say who depended on the earth? Will they be angry, appalled, feel cheated, betrayed? Better to drop the illusion and go into the flames knowing what you are made of. You and the earth have something very important in common. You are both illusions.

What? Do you think you will be "you" when you die? You're in for a big surprise. "You" never existed. Only your human shell and your ego. Will you be another ego in another life? Something completely different? Where did your earth ego go? It was a coat that you put on, and took off just as easily. And, when you walk the earth and it burns up, and you along with it, what will you be then? How long will it take you to see that you are the Source? Drop the ego and know who you really are. That is the only thing that will save you. Otherwise, you are doomed to wear coat after coat, always believing in the coat and not who you are. I've seen this. Past lives (coats). I was nothing like I am now. Dragged a few bad habits into this life, but the ego I am now is not the ego I was then. An illusion. This illusion woke up. And, the view is pretty great from here.

Spec said:
Please do try to prove it.I don't understand the question. There is nothing left to prove in my life. You either know it, or you don't. You're either awake, or you're not. You are trying to make my experience fit your paradigm. I don't even have a paradigm anymore. Your question makes no sense to me. There are no consequences because consequences are an illusion.

Ryan2007

12th February 2007, 07:48 PM

I agree that we arrange our perception into a solid perceivable world. It appears objective and factual. But when you drop everything and rearrange it into a different cognitive view that very perceptual reality changes, only to be arranged again into a different, equally perceivable, objective factual world. Even if fleetingly perceived. (As with obe or dream states, belief systems, human behaviors ect..ect..)

The ability to do this isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t freedom. (In my opinion) Freedom, to me is when the temptation to arrange is let go, leaving only awareness and energy to experience and perceive the universe at itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s, stark, relentless, infinitely unbiased expression of itself. When we align our energies of awareness with the energy of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“SourceÃ¢â‚¬Â as you refer to it, no shred of human experience can possibly measure up. No human attributes defy or define this to my satisfaction. It is like a disintegrating force, which I have experienced on three different occasions, by focusing on the source as I attempted to project. I was just a ball of energy being pulled in a million directions. Stretched into infinity. I halted the experience, because I knew that I would be gone forever. Each piece was aware of itself, aware that it was being stretched into nothingness.

But I ask you to consider this, perhaps some shred of our experience, our humanity, our underpinnings of awareness and experience, can be taken with us. How can you know that this isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the case, or even a possibility? What value has any experience for the source, if it is shredded to nothingness? What then was the value of experience for the source, which is ultimately responsibly for us being here in the first place?

The Earth dies, and it will take us with it as it does. We all die. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t pretend to know what happens after death, but if experience and perception has no value after life, why then did we bother to be born in the first place? This seems a careless mistake of the infinite Source. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think the source makes mistakes, which are for the human domain. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t believe we were human before we were born; see what I mean?

Perhaps we are how the universe becomes aware, through experience. But that is just idle speculation of a curious mind.

***Puts coat back on before disentegrating*** :twisted:

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 08:11 PM

Perhaps we are how the universe becomes aware, through experience.Yes, exactly.

I was just a ball of energy being pulled in a million directions. Stretched into infinity. I halted the experience, because I knew that I would be gone forever. "You" would be gone forever. So what? Is your ego so precious that it needs to last? Can it last? That is the question. You "hated" the experience because you feared it. Now, imagine not fearing the experience. Not one bit. Imagine your life on this earth without fear. How much more incredible that could be. Fear is what keeps us tied to our ego, and will keep us tied for a very long, long time. You either function out of fear, or you function without fear. Nothing in between. Break it down to it's simplist awareness. Even love is fear. Fear of not being good enough, fear of not being appreciated, fear of not having your ego stroked. Now, imagine the most loving thing you have ever done in your life. It was fear based. Break it down until it has nothing left but the core emotion behind it. At the very least, you got your ego stroked. You got to "feel" good. Or, you got to be admired. Or, you admired yourself. There is always a pay-off. Even with the most compassionate love there is, there is a pay-off. Don't be fooled by love. It is often the last stand of the ego. This was my last stand.

Being free of love, not fearing loss of love....that is freedom. The death of the ego. And, what happens after that? I'm still learning, but it's rather amazing.

If you want to stay in the illusion, if you want to believe love is the greatest thing there is, don't read this thread. It will only piss you off. I told you this wasn't for sissies. It's for people who want to wake up from the dream. If your're happy with your dream, stay in it. It's a decent dream, as dreams go.

Tom

12th February 2007, 08:15 PM

Buddha taught compassion and love before meditation, even, so that after his students became enlightened it would carry over and they would still have the impulse to help the people around them. When enlightenment is attain those tendencies are like the unwinding of a spring. There is no basis anymore to wind it up again, but it is still there for a limited time as the tendencies unwind and fade out.

12th February 2007, 08:16 PM

Spec said:
Please do try to prove it.I don't understand the question. There is nothing left to prove in my life. You either know it, or you don't. You're either awake, or you're not. You are trying to make my experience fit your paradigm. I don't even have a paradigm anymore. Your question makes no sense to me. There are no consequences because consequences are an illusion.

If this is an illusion, what is reality?

And if you think I'm operating under a paradigm you are sadly mistaken and grossly misjudge me as you typically do. Life might not seem to matter to you anymore, but you ARE still capable of hurting people's feelings.

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 08:21 PM

This isn't about you, Spec. This is about illusion.

Tom

12th February 2007, 08:23 PM

I think he wants to know more about the screen that the movie is projected on. What is the basis which makes the illusion feel so solid?

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 08:30 PM

What is the basis which makes the illusion feel so solid?It was created that way. Just as the players in the movie were created to believe they are real. If everybody woke up, the game would be over.

As Tom implied in a past post, only "you" can hurt yourself. No one else can hurt you. The words that leave their lips either bounce off of you, or you take them in and they and your ego play games with each other.

Ryan2007

12th February 2007, 08:51 PM

Just want to clarify that I said halted, not hated.
And yes, fear did stop me.
I also have already decided if I can get there again, to let go.
I'm not pissed off, I don't beleive any defintion of anything is greater than another. So, I'm not responding to the threat of Love being taken away, Im just responding to the intrigue of the conversation.

I am intrigued because it reminds me so much of Castaneda's work, and the idea of total perception. Burning from within and dissolving into infinity, were no trace of human antecedants remain.

With all your explainations though, you remain here. What will you do with your time? Sit and do nothing? Or find a path and go with it? Even if you sit with your ponderings and do nothing, you have chosen a path. Until you can dissolve into nothingness you are stuck here it seems.

Thats what I mean about finding a path with heart, one you can enjoy. Perhaps hanging out here and posting is your path. And not a bad one I might add.

We can still choose a path and live it out, even though we know that it is all meaningless, endless reflections of nothing focused on itself.

Personally, even though I know it is all nothing, I would rather enjoy , life, experience,sex, love, exploring the astral, ect...
Especially sex :wink:

CFTraveler

12th February 2007, 08:59 PM

Two things stuck out to me:

Being free of love, not fearing loss of love....that is freedom. Yes, but they're not the same. As Illusions go, being free of the fear of loss of love is the loss of a paradigm, a crutch, but the idea of love as a binding force, as a material for creation is a different kind of illusion. They both depend on perception, but one is destructive, the other constructive, creation itself.
As Ryan said:

We can still choose a path and live it out, even though we know that it is all meaningless, endless reflections of nothing focused on itself.

Personally, even though I know it is all nothing, I would rather enjoy , life, experience,sex, love, exploring the astral, ect...
I couldn't have said it better myself. If I decided to be here, I'm going to make the most of it, even if it is an illusion. It may seem empty but love is what makes it worthwhile. Like reading a book- I'd rather make it a happy book than a sad book. But this metaphor only works if like me, you like reading. :wink:

Tom

12th February 2007, 09:30 PM

Jed McKenna likes jumping out of airplanes. When he is doing that, no one around him knows about the enlightenment thing and he is just another guy who jumps out of planes. He has to do something with his time. It is also why he writes books. He does a lot of reading, too, especially to see how other people express enlightenment. Then again, I heard that Jed isn't even a real person. Fairfield is only about 20 miles from where I live. It would take a few hours, but that would even be walking distance if I knew where to go. :)

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 09:32 PM

Also, just to clarify. I'm not posting to prove or disprove, agree with or disagree with, debate or not debate anyone else's post. If I pull a quote out of someone's post, it is something that I am defining for myself. Clarifying to make sure I've got it right. That I'm still disassembling my ego. This is a process for me, and those watching just kind of got caught up in my process. I could just as easily do this alone, but seeing other people's egoic :shock: ramblings helps me to see another one of mine and bash it out of existence. I am hell bent on doing this, and I can't stop it now. The genie's out of the bottle, the dam has broken, I'm a leaf in a rushing river. Can't go back, have to let go and let the river take me where it may.

In answer to the last several posts, it doesn't matter. If someone wants to devote their life to changing the world, or to sitting in a corner and staring at the amazing wall, it's all good. There is no experience that is better than another to the Source. The Source is in it for the experience, not to judge it's worthiness.

journyman161

12th February 2007, 09:33 PM

I'm not at all sure that Love IS part of the illusion - we are all from source & while most chips off the block may experience an ego-bound love, there is still the possibility of unconditional Love. The kind of love that looks around & sees Source in all beings, in all things & loves the game because of it.

While discarding the ego-bound love may be needed (& I am pretty sure it is) the agapÃƒÂ© (I think that's what the Greeks called it - the God's Love of All is what I'm thinking of) is another story entirely.

That seems to be something to achieve once you've deconstructed your own reality.

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 09:36 PM

Jman, you got it. It's actually an outgrowth, not a goal.

journyman161

12th February 2007, 09:39 PM

As in, once you part the curtain the AgapÃƒÂ© comes along?

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 09:51 PM

Was that a question, or rhetorical? You have to get past the curtain of the ego. What's there, who knows? Bliss, peace, understanding, Oneness, if this is what you mean by Agape, then I suppose so. Believe it or not, it's wonderful, but it's not a goal, it's just there. It Is. I can't define it, and don't really want to.

journyman161

12th February 2007, 10:02 PM

Well it was kind of a question but I guess I knew the answer anyway. It was the thought behind my concern about your initial apparent despair that seemed to be coming through in your posts. It just seemed to me that losing the separateness should have led to a connectedness to everything which would seem to be a good thing, yet initially, you seemed to be heading in a negative direction & to me, it flagged warnings that maybe you weren't in the state you thought you were.

No, I'm not there... but there's nothing wrong with my reasoning capabilities.

Must admit, I'd like to be - I've been aimed at what you're going through for a long time... Bloody twisting paths sometimes aren't they?

Tempestinateapot

12th February 2007, 10:31 PM

you seemed to be heading in a negative direction & to me, it flagged warnings that maybe you weren't in the state you thought you were. I knew what was going on. It's pretty clear. The death of the ego. How can that possibly be a positive action as it's going on? You are killing everything you knew to be "true". You are laid bare, dreams dashed, hopes dashed, beliefs crushed into the ground, as McKenna would say, exploding and bleeding all over the place. There isn't a pretty way to do this. The ego is fighting for it's life. It's quite depressing. If it's not, you didn't actually do it. This isn't someting that you do now and then. This is all out war, you either do it, or you die trying. And, you do it once. There is one breakthrough, no more. You're there or you're not. What's left afterward? Anything you want. You create, knowing you are creating an illusion. You can't be a god and still have fears. You also can't be a god and kid yourself that you are God. While you are creating, you are still in the dream, maybe awake in the dream, but functioning in the dream. The Source is dreaming the dream, but Source is not IN the dream. The only way out of the dream is the final melding with the Source. The afterlife of heavens, hells, being a Spirit Guide, even creating another universe is still IN the dream. Oneness, yes, but one must give up the dream to become the Ultimate Observer. That's what the Source does...observe. Source doesn't get It's Hands dirty. We do that. You can either do it awake or asleep...choice is yours.

And, yes, it's a bloody twisting path, but it doesn't have to be. It requires you to madly dash headlong into it, and let the chips fall where they may. Or, you can follow the twisting yellow brick road for awhile. At some point, everyone will say, "there's no place like Home". :D

star

12th February 2007, 10:34 PM

I couldn't say what love's got to do, got to do with IT. :P

But thats probably why I don't quite understand what love is, or how other people feel it.

I think that love is not really whats important, what seems important is coming to that first step. Which is what I'm working towards. Then working away at everything afterwards.

faerylight

13th February 2007, 04:59 PM

I knew what was going on. It's pretty clear. The death of the ego. How can that possibly be a positive action as it's going on? You are killing everything you knew to be "true". You are laid bare, dreams dashed, hopes dashed, beliefs crushed into the ground, as McKenna would say, exploding and bleeding all over the place. There isn't a pretty way to do this. The ego is fighting for it's life. It's quite depressing. If it's not, you didn't actually do it. This isn't someting that you do now and then. This is all out war, you either do it, or you die trying. And, you do it once. There is one breakthrough, no more. You're there or you're not.

My experience has been different. Seems it is possible to transcend the ego in stages, that there are many levels to awakening. Belief system crash is a tough stage though and it can be painful to realize just how much one has relied on external sources of validation, how much the ego has controlled and shaped your perceptions and beliefs.

I don't see any reason why hopes and dreams have to die - to me, it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water. It is important to understand that what this incarnation has experienced and has come to believe may not be the true nature of things, but to toss aside everything that makes this illusion bareable is not wise.

What I find fascinating is Spectral Dragon's question - if this is an illusion, what is reality? What is the true nature of things and why do we experience this illusion? Why is cause and effect part and parcel of this illusion? Why have I decided to incarnate as this particular incarnation? What about other incarnations of myself? Why those? What is my role in this illusion? I get the idea of "isness", as in, IT just IS, however, certain realizations have raised many questions that the concept of 'isness' just doesn't seem to satisfy.

Illusion or not, there are consequences and sometimes they can suck. Illusion or not, I still have to go to work everyday to a very boring job and make money so that I can continue to have shelter and food. Makes little difference whether or not it's an illusion, I still experience this illusion in full effect with all it's benefits and consequences.

wjjw

13th February 2007, 05:16 PM

First step is to 'realize' that life is an illustion.

Then comes the great observer within.

Then you start to realize that you are, at your deepest roots, connected to the source, and in fact are a part of the source, and in truth that you 'are' the source.

You have to get past the curtain of the ego.
ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s exactly what is said here, quite forcefully. Not for sissies (or egos):
http://pure-research.net/healing/bestill/

crappysurfer2

13th February 2007, 05:52 PM

i really love this thread, and the funny thing is yesterday, i was on the brink of enlightening myself like you explained, it is what i believe too. i felt a complete understanding of everything, for a moment i knew everything and i could feel my spirit leaving because it didnt need to be in me, because it is everything, while it was leaving something happened and it grabbed some figment of my existance and pulled itself back into my body......thats where it ended, and that is also why i am here on the computer typing this...
i know this may seem flawed to some of you, but the truth is there is no way to explain this with words, you will just have to take my word for it....true it is scary, but do we fear what we do not know?

13th February 2007, 07:05 PM

This isn't about you, Spec. This is about illusion.

I'm going to ask again, then. (And again, I reiterate that you are grossly misjudging me for the fourth time in this thread,) if this reality is the illusion, what is reality?

Tom

13th February 2007, 07:32 PM

It isn't so much that people and things are not real. It is just when you try to separate them and consider them in isolation that problems arise. They tend to wither away like branches cut off from a tree. People tend to do that to themselves. They see themselves as separate from and independent of the whole of things, and it takes an enormous amount of energy to stop the falling apart process when you take yourself away from the whole. People don't tend to be at their best when they are doing this, because it takes so much energy just to keep from falling apart that not much is left to respond creatively to situations. I decided to let myself fall apart just to see what would happen. The interesting thing was that it was the separation which fell apart instead. I found that it wasn't possible to begin with to be separate and isolated because the whole is everywhere at all times. The illusion is the artificial boundaries, such as the idea that you end at your skin and the air is apart from you. The trouble is that in almost every situation I don't feel the connectedness that came to me in that one moment. It is easy to react to people as if they are not only separate from me but also actively going against me. The experience of being part of the whole at all times is going to take a lot of work still, mostly by approaching it and resting in it many times until it breaks the habit of separation. Until then it is just something to approach during meditation, with varying degrees of success.

13th February 2007, 07:47 PM

crappysurfer2

13th February 2007, 08:13 PM

well said tom and spectral, yes we are everything and there is no seperation, perception causes everything to appear to be its own entity

Tempestinateapot

13th February 2007, 08:24 PM

faerylight said:
I don't see any reason why hopes and dreams have to dieBecause to do this, the ego has to die. Hopes and dreams are part of the egoic mind. The Source does not have hopes and dreams. The question really is, do you want to leave the ego behind, or do you want to continue pretending that you can hang on to certain parts of the ego and really do this? What are hopes and dreams? Down at the core...with all the prettiness peeled away? They are fear. Fear that everything won't be wonderful. Fear that the ego won't get what it wants. If you have to have hopes and dreams, you aren't enlightened. You can say you are, you can jump up and down and throw a tantrum that you are, you can argue that you are. But, who are you arguing with? Certainly not me. I don't exist. I am an illusion. What are you trying to prove? The only thing you are proving is that you are still afraid of no self.

What is reality and what is illusion? All of this is illusion. The earth, our lives, our egos, our need to argue. Reality is the Source. Reality is the Source is Alone. We are a movie the Source is watching. We are all One, but there only is One. For those who are following Quantum Physics, you can understand how this can be true. A particle doesn't exist until it's looked at. Well, we are particles, and when Source isn't looking, we don't exist. How much clearer can that be?

But, the reality is that we are the Source. Tom explained it pretty well. Everything is connected, everything is One. There is nothing that isn't the Source. But, just as when you dream a dream, and believe you are real in the dream until you wake up, the Source's creations are a dream until they wake up. To wake up, you have to recognize that you are in a dream. And, to do that, you have to be willing to let your ego go. That means, among other things, that everything you hold dear....your metaphysical practices, your religion, your family, your friends, your problems aren't real and don't exist. When you demolish your ego, your fear is gone. Fear that someone won't love you, that you will be nothing without your metaphysical practices, fear that you will die without food and shelter. Take the food and shelter one out to the end....what if you can't work? What if you get some horrible disease and die? If you are still trapped by your ego, you will be extremely frightened. If you have demolished your ego, death holds no fear for you. That's what letting go of the ego does....it makes you let go of the fear. If I knew I was going to die in 5 minutes, I'd say, "bring it on".

Here are some questions to see if your ego is still up and running...are you afraid of death? Are you afraid of losing your family? You will. Are you afraid of not having enough food to eat? Are you afraid of terrorists? Are you afraid to give up your belief system? Are you afraid that we are destroying the earth with our wasteful ways? So what? Are you afraid that you won't matter? You don't. Are you afraid you aren't important? You aren't. Are you afraid you don't have enough education to get a decent job? Are you afraid of being homeless? Are you afraid no one is listening to you and that people are gravely mistaken about who you are or what you think? Are you afraid that I am full of ♥♥♥♥? Well, the last one is the only one that's true. I am full of ♥♥♥♥ because I don't exist. So, don't listen to me, as I said, I don't really care. I'm writing this as part of my process to kill the bits of my ego that are still functioning. If any of this upset you or made you mad, you are firmly planted in your ego. The question is do you want to wake up or stay asleep?

Tom

13th February 2007, 08:27 PM

Back in the late 1980s (so don't ask me to cite a source, please) I read that some people had trouble with even basic relaxation exercises because when they started to relax they would have actual panic attacks.

crappysurfer2

13th February 2007, 08:34 PM

a man who wants nothing, is invincible

Tempestinateapot

13th February 2007, 08:40 PM

A woman who needs nothing is even more invincible. :wink:

Tempestinateapot

13th February 2007, 08:42 PM

crappysurfer2

13th February 2007, 08:56 PM

yeah i know, im just saying.. 8) :wink:

13th February 2007, 09:21 PM

There is a difference here, although at first glance it doesn't seem so. After enlightenment, if you want something, that's no big deal. If you decide you need it, you haven't been enlightened. The male/female thing was just a joke. There is no male or female, as they are illusions.

Your still using your ego, in this very paragraph you just proved it. You have distinguished that you don't have needs or wants.

The truth of the matter is that your subconscious is clearly trying to tell you that you have to have needs and wants and you are consciously trying to fight this off. "I don't have needs," but "After enlightenment it's ok to "need," but the truth of the matter is that you are simply justifying your own paradigm.

Yet, according to yourself, you have dropped your ego. You are identifying with not having any wants in the world, yet you still want to have no wants. You don't NEED to have any wants as is in your paradigm. In order to get what you are trying to do to work, to destroy your sense of self and become the great one, the origin, you would need to drop paradigms, yet you are operating under the paradigm of "there is only illusion."

Plain simple fact of the matter: you are still quite egotistical.

The simple fact is that you are deluding yourself hun, you keep fighting back arguing "this isn't about you, spec," "there is only illusion spec," but you won't answer questions, you won't reason, you will only blindly follow the experience you have been given. And, because of that, you are destroying yourself. You are becoming nothing more than a vegetable.

You might want to consider answering the questions asked, but only to yourself. If what you are doing truly is the right path, then there is no reason you should be afraid to find answers to them.

Again, you are free to ignore but then again if you choose to ignore you SHOULD also be choosing not to reply, which you have been.

Your actions have been hurting a few people of late painter, they are quite worried about you, and it might be time to consider that.

journyman161

13th February 2007, 09:50 PM

Your still using your ego, in this very paragraph you just proved it. You have distinguished that you don't have needs or wants.

The truth of the matter is that your subconscious is clearly trying to tell you that you have to have needs and wants and you are consciously trying to fight this off. "I don't have needs," but "After enlightenment it's ok to "need," but the truth of the matter is that you are simply justifying your own paradigm.

Yet, according to yourself, you have dropped your ego. You are identifying with not having any wants in the world, yet you still want to have no wants. You don't NEED to have any wants as is in your paradigm. In order to get what you are trying to do to work, to destroy your sense of self and become the great one, the origin, you would need to drop paradigms, yet you are operating under the paradigm of "there is only illusion."

Plain simple fact of the matter: you are still quite egotistical.

The simple fact is that you are deluding yourself hun, you keep fighting back arguing "this isn't about you, spec," "there is only illusion spec," but you won't answer questions, you won't reason, you will only blindly follow the experience you have been given. And, because of that, you are destroying yourself. You are becoming nothing more than a vegetable.

You might want to consider answering the questions asked, but only to yourself. If what you are doing truly is the right path, then there is no reason you should be afraid to find answers to them.

Again, you are free to ignore but then again if you choose to ignore you SHOULD also be choosing not to reply, which you have been.

Your actions have been hurting a few people of late painter, they are quite worried about you, and it might be time to consider that.*grins* Um... that's not going to work SD... Even if you're correct in what you're trying to say, she has addressed those things.

But you seem to have her statements about needs & wants mixed around. What I read above is TiaTP saying it's OK to have a Want & get it satisfied but Needs are indicative of compulsion & that is a symptom of still being attached to an ego.

And SD, you have seemed to be quite reactive to things that don't seem specifically directed at you; not sure whether it is past history making you sensitive or if the idea of dropping ego has you antsy.

Anyway... back tot he fray.

TiaTP, Tom et al...

I still think there's a piece missing here. I have no problems with the giving up ego etc. (Well, I do but that's to do with my situation) I have no problems understanding what you're saying about it might be a better way to say it. there are a couple of comments by others here that to me don't ring true to what you're describing, but I think for both of you, the experience is clear.

The missing piece comes back to my original thought that kicked off at the beginning of this thread... that there is more to this. The little thought engine is sitting in the background whirring & processing & keeps popping up stuff.

The thing that is jumping up with its hand in the air now is this. What you're talking about doesn't seem to include just why The Source would do this. To remove the ego may be to wake from the dream, but the Dreamer DOES exist & the Dreamer HAD a purpose in all this. To experience without a reason simply doesn't wash - the Source has a reason for us to Be; it has a reason for looking into itself to discover things & it has a reason for us to go through all this.

It seems to me that to abandon the Game without subsequently picking up the reason for it all is to kind of abdicate from things. Is this the next step or simply dropping purpose? Maybe the reason there are so many Guides around is because, having seen through the ego-game, they find the original purpose & decide to get behind it consciously as Players rather than being unconscious pawns in the Game?

star

13th February 2007, 10:05 PM

Maybe there is a greater reason. Maybe there is something to learn through enlightenement.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to wake up first before trying to figure that out?

I'll steal from Jed's book alittle.

Its sorta like two caterpillars debating what it means to be a butterfly.

Ryan2007

13th February 2007, 10:06 PM

The thing that is jumping up with its hand in the air now is this. What you're talking about doesn't seem to include just why The Source would do this. To remove the ego may be to wake from the dream, but the Dreamer DOES exist & the Dreamer HAD a purpose in all this. To experience without a reason simply doesn't wash - the Source has a reason for us to Be; it has a reason for looking into itself to discover things & it has a reason for us to go through all this.

I agree Jman, thats kind of what I was getting at too, in my own lurid and contrived way.

journyman161

13th February 2007, 10:07 PM

To not think about something until something else occurs seems a waste of space to me. That way lies religion & that way lies subjugation. The caterpillar who has thought about it is at least more able to comprehend the changes than the one who munches his leaf & refuses to face a changing future.

And maybe, just maybe, before you can awaken, you have to think about awakening?

crappysurfer2

13th February 2007, 10:12 PM

Tom

13th February 2007, 10:49 PM

Tension makes the internal dialogue run faster. If you relax and focus on your physical senses, it will slow down the way a spring unwinds when you stop tightening it. If you spend more time relaxing and just being aware than getting caught up in things, the internal dialogue can even pause and you can spend longer periods of time without thinking in words. That part about words is the important distinction. The internal dialogue is a bit compulsive for most people. They can't just turn it off. It isn't that they are thinking at all. Their thoughts are in charge and dragging them along for the ride.

Tempestinateapot

13th February 2007, 11:11 PM

Jman said:
What I read above is TiaTP saying it's OK to have a Want & get it satisfied but Needs are indicative of compulsion & that is a symptom of still being attached to an ego. Very insightful. The purpose of becoming enlightened is to rid yourself of fears. If you trust the universe, it will provide because that's what it does. In Zen, I believe they call it the "flow". You may not get exactly what you want, but since you didn't need it, that doesn't matter.

Spec said:
Your still using your egoI don't recall saying I had completely gotten rid of it. :?: I said I am in the process, that's part of what this thread is about. People are asking questions or are debating, and that helps me to see more clearly what still bothers me and what doesn't. Trying to find those little ego devils still hiding. :twisted: The way is clear to me, the process can't be stopped. I have no idea if or when I will be completely free of ego. But, I'm a lot closer today than I was two weeks ago. And, this still isn't about you.

It's impossible for me to hurt anyone. People can take in what I say, they can ignore it, or they can call it absurd. What they do with it has nothing to do with me. I can't make anybody do anything, least of all make them "hurt". That's their own job.

Jman said:
To experience without a reason simply doesn't washHmmmm, let me see what I can do with this. Several things come to mind. Why not? Who said the Source has to fall into what we think It should be doing? Or, the experience is for the experience itself. Since so few people actually want to give up their ego and merge totally with the Source, losing any identity, I think the Source has plenty of illusions left to play with. If not, I'm sure more will be created. The only question that is really relevant is, do you want to wake up or not?

Poosurfer :lol: said:
i think it is healthy to have an ego at times, not a large ego, but a modest, humble one A humble ego is probably the worst to have. It lulls you into believing you are enlightened. It's got a payoff, anything to do with ego always has a payoff. In this case, it's the satisfaction of knowing you are humble. You can pat yourself on the head and be deluded that you have woken up.

Again, understand I am talking to myself and trying to work this out. If you are upset about things I've said, that says a whole lot more about you than about me.

sash

13th February 2007, 11:12 PM

Introspection doesn't involve thinking. It involves reflection and contemplation, both of which are experiential. As I see it there are levels of enlightenment. Dropping male/female need/want dualities appears easier in hypnotic states or states of meditation. Obviously this is harder once a person goes back into Beta (wakeful) state. I think those states fluctuate, the ego comes back around from time to time even after periods where we felt we might have been enlightened. The aim then seems to be increasing states of higher cognition and reducing the times the ego comes back.

The vessel of the ego is quite a problem and this is where the emotional self and the individual self comes into the picture. The problem lies in examples of people who have achieved quite a lot in life, for example Plato or Leonardo Da Vinci. One might contend their inner essence was focused upon The Source, but I believe they would not be able to achieve what they did without holding a clear individuality and ego. A vessel for their achievements seems necessary, at least according to the laws of this world.

I do not see a problem with wanting or needing something, except the attachment to either.

Tempestinateapot

13th February 2007, 11:18 PM

Tom, I'm not quite sure I agree with this.
the internal dialogue can even pause and you can spend longer periods of time without thinking in words. That part about words is the important distinction. The internal dialogue is a bit compulsive for most peopleIt's undoubtedly a good practice, but it still isn't enlightenment. With enlightenment comes the realization that even monkey mind is ok. There is nothing that isn't ok, because it's all an illusion anyway. I think what you are saying is that once enlightened, or woken up, there still can be a necessary process of destroying the bits of ego hanging around. Enlightenment, waking up is what McKenna calls the First Step...and he says it's the Last Step in enlightenment. There are no other steps. Process: Wake up, notice that nothing is better or worse than anything else. This is harder than it sounds. It's all part of the same illusion. A rock is as important as your spouse. That's the step. The process of destroying the ego can take a lot more time, and what you mentioned is a way to further that.

journyman161

13th February 2007, 11:19 PM

i think it is healthy to have an ego at times, not a large ego, but a modest, humble one, if you have the power to dismiss the ego thats a bonus, i wouldnt say permenant dismissal of your ego puts you at an advantage, an ego is key to living in this 'reality'Um... you seem to be using the incorrect definition of the word 'ego.' Here we are talking about the part of everyone that says 'I' - not the version that puts self in front of everyone else.

Everyone has ego; some have AN ego.

Tom

13th February 2007, 11:38 PM

Dzogchen agrees with you, that it doesn't matter if the mind is quiet or filled with thoughts. It still starts with teaching how to slow the thoughts down and stop them for longer periods of time to make the mind a stronger tool for cutting through appearances. After that is done it is easier to give the student the direct introduction to the nature of mind, because the student has had a taste of it first in silence. It is then easier to recognize that the nature of mind is the same even when there is a crowd of thoughts. If I ever get a chance to get a Dzogchen initiation of this sort I'm still going to take it.

Tom, I'm not quite sure I agree with this.
the internal dialogue can even pause and you can spend longer periods of time without thinking in words. That part about words is the important distinction. The internal dialogue is a bit compulsive for most peopleIt's undoubtedly a good practice, but it still isn't enlightenment. With enlightenment comes the realization that even monkey mind is ok. There is nothing that isn't ok, because it's all an illusion anyway. I think what you are saying is that once enlightened, or woken up, there still can be a necessary process of destroying the bits of ego hanging around. Enlightenment, waking up is what McKenna calls the First Step...and he says it's the Last Step in enlightenment. There are no other steps. Process: Wake up, notice that nothing is better or worse than anything else. This is harder than it sounds. It's all part of the same illusion. A rock is as important as your spouse. That's the step. The process of destroying the ego can take a lot more time, and what you mentioned is a way to further that.

14th February 2007, 02:46 AM

And, this still isn't about you.

I wasn't saying or implying it was about me, I am trying to warn you, as a FRIEND, that you are going to end up being extremely detrimental to yourself and those around you.

I mean, hun, listen to yourself for a sec will ya? "I can't possibly hurt anyone, it's all up to how they take what I say and I'm not responsible?"

Your lack of logic and reasoning is astounding here Tempest, you have blatantly disregarded and ignored most of my reasoning here. You are a human being, you ARE capable of hurting people.

See, there are these things called feelings and friendship, and you can break trust and burn bridges based on your own actions. Forget what happened between us in the past, I am talking about the FUTURE here.

For god's sake patty as someone who still considers you a friend would you quite being so dogmatic?

Traveller, if you are concerned about how strongly I'm coming across then you are definitely missing part of the picture here. I come off strongly because I care, but regardless the people reading it still have the power to ignore it should they choose. If Patty stops responding, I will stop responding in kind. It's really that simple.

*takes deep breath*

*Wonders if it's still worth it*

I enjoy a friendly debate, but I think this is starting to become not so friendly, my intentions were solid, but I am not so sure it's being recieved that way. Obviously my views aren't welcome in this matter so I am bowing out now.

CFTraveler

14th February 2007, 03:02 AM

The process of destroying the ego can take a lot more time, and what you mentioned is a way to further that. Ahem...you can't destroy what doesn't exist! Hello?

And Spectral... Hmmm....I wasn't yelling at you, I was telling everyone to chill, not you specifically. It's all good.

14th February 2007, 03:04 AM

Tempestinateapot

14th February 2007, 04:20 AM

CF said:
Ahem...you can't destroy what doesn't exist! Hello?Now there's a paradox, huh? Although I'm in the process of killing Jed McKenna, as in Killing the Buddha, I'll have to repeat something he said. For anyone who doesn't like the word "killing" it doesn't mean literally. It's an expression that basically means to go past (further than) your teacher. A real teacher does not want credit, praise, or anyone to make them into something bigger than they are. No hero worship or making them an avatar or even a guru. I've also heard it explained that it means while along the road, if you see a Buddha, recognize it's a false Buddha. Until you become a Buddha yourself (self-realized person is sometimes used) it's necessary to keep killing the Buddhas. In my words, it means that you are your only authority. Trust in only what you know to be true.

Anyway, McKenna mentioned in one of his books that he doesn't believe a person can completely destroy the ego while still incarnating. I'm going to have to agree with him there. Having met some highly recognized and respected metaphysical teachers, I can see the ego still alive in them, to some degree or other. So, CF, perhaps "destroy" isn't quite the right word. Maybe it's undefinable? I don't know. It's definitely a paradox. But, then, you could say so is the Source. If Source is complete as it Is (Being) why create the illusion? I suppose that all we can do is guess. I think I mentioned some of this in a post to Jman. I need to go eat. My brain is toast. :D

Tom

14th February 2007, 04:29 AM

How everything came to be this way is dealt with in Buddhism, where there is no God and no one is in charge. First we tell you it doesn't matter how you came to be here because the important thing is to use the time you have to deal with the problem. Then we admit that the universe was a big mistake ... a really, really, really big mistake. Then we remind you that the important thing is to get out now while you have a human incarnation and the resources to attain enlightenment.

Tempestinateapot

14th February 2007, 04:33 AM

Hey, Tom, are you a practicing Buddhist? I knew you studied it, but I've never heard you call yourself one before.

So, why would the universe be a mistake? Seems like a pretty creative thing to do. I thought Buddhists thought everything is perfect just as it is. Well, I guess that disqualifies me from becoming Buddhist. :P I don't think it was a mistake, and I think everything is perfect just as it is. :D

Tom

14th February 2007, 04:44 AM

Buddhism is like Christianity, in that it has split up many times. I joined the Karma Kagyu branch of Tibetan Buddhism in 1997 after informally being Buddhist since 1989. My branch is Mahayana but my inclinations are Theravada ... I don't feel like saving anyone, but I'm not going to hang out in a monastery and if anyone looks ready for a good push I'll give it just to watch the fall-out.

Haven't you ever done something you didn't mean to do and been surprised by the results? Theravada Buddhism regards the universe as a basically hostile place, but by the time you get to Vajrayana and Dzogchen the world IS perfect the way it is. Just like Theravada says to save yourself now while you still can and Dzogchen says there is no real difference between wandering in samsara and attaining the peace of nirvana.

Tempestinateapot

14th February 2007, 06:00 AM

So, the Buddhists believe there is no God. I haven't done any in depth study, and I can't seem to find anything that really explains this. Do they believe there is some unifying force that created the illusion (Maya)? I can see why they would believe that the universe is a hostile place. All you have to do is look at nature to figure that out. Asteroids go crashing into planets, killing life and making a mess. Suns burn up, and in the process destroy any life that was existing on the planets. Animals hunt down, kill, and eat smaller animals. The human body decays. It's all kind of sickening, but it's also glorious. It's only sickening on the level of human ego.

I'm musing here, but people like to say there is more good and love in the world than there is bad. That's merely a perception and isn't true when you break things down to their smallest core truth. It's noble to think that there is more goodness, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Either people are fooling themselves, or they understand the truth and are trying to change it. With this new way of thinking I've got, it's all good. Everything is just as it should be and couldn't be more perfect. Love, as well as hardship or even hate serve the purpose of experience just like they were set up to do. The fact of the matter is, when you lose your fears (and I'm not saying I've completely done this) you can appreciate this universe much better, because your mind isn't all clogged up with trying to gloss over the yucky things. Rose colored glasses come off, and creation is awesome and amazing.

Tom

14th February 2007, 06:43 AM

Maya is Hindu. :)

No, there is nothing unifying in Buddhism. All this is an accident. It is completely impersonal and meaningless. Love is just a tool. Other beings are just rungs on the ladder to get out.

Jed's Zen is a lot beter than the original.

Tempestinateapot

14th February 2007, 06:56 AM

Maya is Hindu.Thanks for clearing that up. 8)

Buddhists, when they get out, where are they? What do they do?

Tom

14th February 2007, 07:06 AM

Maya is Hindu.Thanks for clearing that up. 8)

Buddhists, when they get out, where are they? What do they do?

Actually, it turns out that suicide was very popular. Usually they went into solitude and waited for death to come to them. If they had built up the inclination to teach before reaching their goal, though, they would teach until that impulse faded away. Buddha compared a person attaining enlightenment to a flame running out of fuel. When the wick burns down and the fuel is gone, which direction does the flame go? Of course, sometimes the flame goes out while there is fuel left and the wick cools off. The potential for it to burn again is still there.

kiwibonga

14th February 2007, 09:15 AM

wstein

14th February 2007, 09:25 AM

:D the crack is found!

There IS ground between existence and merging with ALL (source). I'm not sure its important though. Depending on how you define 'existence' and 'illusion', it may still be part of the illusion or not. It does lack in actualized manifest form. Some on this forum might call it consciousness. Not all of it would seem to be 'selfless' however.

CFTraveler

14th February 2007, 03:17 PM

Going back to my pitiful understanding of Buddhism- I thought Mahayana was closer to the Hindu roots (Gautama was Indian, remember?) and that version does believe in the Atman, which could 'roughly' be equated to the idea of God or Mind? It's not a statement, it's a question for our resident Buddhist, Tom.

Tom

14th February 2007, 03:56 PM

The Mahayana chose the name Mahayana (Great Vehicle) and also the name Hinayana (Little Vehicle). Most of the Hinayana branches did not make it, but the best known one of those that remain chose the name Theravada (Way of the Elders). The Theravada was the original Buddhism, and it puts emphasis on the monastic life. The Mahayana split off about 500 years into the history of Buddhism, with the reason that it isn't enough to seek only enlightenment for yourself. They also did not approve of the isolation of the monastic life, since there is a lot to learn from getting out in the world and learning to deal with real life situations. The Vajrayana and Dzogchen and Zen are branches of the Mahayana which came later. All branches of Buddhism are based on the Theravada at their core, which describes the three main characteristics of life as anatma (absence of a distinct self), anicca (impermanence, and dukkha (dissatisfaction or suffering). The origin of everything was a mistake, when Oneness was broken and the distinction was first made between "self" and "other". Karma came next when "self" interacted with "other" and cause led to effect. Things rapidly began to spiral out of control from there, leading to all the possible realms which can be experienced. The distinction between "self" and "other" became more solidified as the evidence that they are separate increased. The purpose in Buddhism is to weaken and break down the appearance of that separation so that the effects of it will diminish and end on their own.

Tempestinateapot

15th February 2007, 09:05 PM

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... 8896#48896 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48896#48896)

JonManuel23

16th February 2007, 07:57 AM

hermes said:
Being a multidimensional being implies multiple dimensional existence.That is just more illusion, albeit on a larger scale. That is still the illusion of separateness. It exists as a thought, but the thought is not the truth. There is only One Being, the Source. All else, including multidimensional existence is still just a creation.

HA! This is going to go in circles.... i loooove circles... sooooo if multidimensional existence is just a creation, "nothing is real" as john lennon so aptly put it, and there is only "One Being," than how are you so sure there is only one being? Cause i mean... who told you that? Or how did you see it or come to this conclusion? If nothing is real, and everything is an illusion, how are you so sure this "One Being" isn't an illusion as well?

And lastly - what's so "bad" and "good" about being enlightened that made you a not-so-happy-camper in one of those earlier posts?

Oh and, i'm not bothering to read the rest of this entire thread... friggen all 12 pages... so this might have been answered already, just let me know

kiwibonga

16th February 2007, 08:26 AM

Oh and, i'm not bothering to read the rest of this entire thread... friggen all 12 pages... so this might have been answered already, just let me know

I'll skip over your posts from now on, thank you. :lol:

Aunt Clair

16th February 2007, 03:16 PM

We're basically doomed to teetering between eternal selflessness and phases of experience.

What if there was a third option? Something more important than existence itself, that we cannot even begin to understand as humans?

I think there is something more important , to me it is love , the journey and lifting the vibration of the planet and its lifeforms over time .

Tempestinateapot

16th February 2007, 07:05 PM

JonManuel said:
and there is only "One Being," than how are you so sure there is only one being?Good question. This is something people really need to discover for themselves. Obviously, there is no empirical data. For me, it's based on observation of myself and others, and has a lot to do with transcendental experiences I've had that have left me without doubt. Particularly since the majority of my experiences happened before I'd read anything similar. Later, sometimes months, sometimes years, I would come across written stories of similar, some even identical, experiences that others have had. Sorry I can't give you more, but it was enough to prove it to me. That's why I say it's something people need to experience for themselves...never take the word of anyone else as being the absolute truth.

I believe the rest of your questions were answered in this thread. And, I don't feel like answering them again or looking them up. You're on your own, if you even really care. :D

shanti guru

18th February 2007, 08:03 PM

i think you should keep your ego in your under pants / thong..! but let it out some time ( meterphoricly ) lol :P

Tom

20th February 2007, 09:53 PM

I'm going to quote something:

________________________________

"It is very valuable to work with words and ideas and get them squared away, but donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t confuse that with enlightenment. Having a very good, clear-cut definition of what a word means, or tagging the right word onto a clear idea, is very often taken mistakenly and innocently by people as enlightenment. It is not enlightenment.
"Insights are even more often taken as enlightenments. Someone suddenly sees something he has never seen before and it is quite exciting and he feels benefited by it because of the feeling of Ã¢â‚¬ËœOh, now I SEE!Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ But that in itself is not necessarily an enlightenment. The difference between enlightenment and an insight is primarily that an insight is had through a process and enlightenment is not. An insight is had through the process of thinking and perception, of going through a mental procedure and arriving at a conclusion through logic and reason. The result is an insight. The very word describes it. In-sight: an internal seeing, a perception. People say, Ã¢â‚¬ËœAhhh, I feel it, I know it, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s true!Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ Insights are beneficial to people and they are one of the greatest thrills that they will have in life but they are not enlightenment. Many people in the therapeutic world and in the humanities have accepted insights as enlightenment. It is a degradation of the word enlightenment and the tradition that was begun famously by Buddha, for people to take definitions, phenomena, and insights as equivalent to enlightenment. You should not fall into that error. It is a major error."

CFTraveler

20th February 2007, 09:58 PM

I'm going to quote something:
_
"It is very valuable to work with words and ideas and get them squared away, but donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t confuse that with enlightenment. Having a very good, clear-cut definition of what a word means, or tagging the right word onto a clear idea, is very often taken mistakenly and innocently by people as enlightenment. It is not enlightenment.
"Insights are even more often taken as enlightenments. Someone suddenly sees something he has never seen before and it is quite exciting and he feels benefited by it because of the feeling of Ã¢â‚¬ËœOh, now I SEE!Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ But that in itself is not necessarily an enlightenment. The difference between enlightenment and an insight is primarily that an insight is had through a process and enlightenment is not. An insight is had through the process of thinking and perception, of going through a mental procedure and arriving at a conclusion through logic and reason. The result is an insight. The very word describes it. In-sight: an internal seeing, a perception. People say, Ã¢â‚¬ËœAhhh, I feel it, I know it, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s true!Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ Insights are beneficial to people and they are one of the greatest thrills that they will have in life but they are not enlightenment. Many people in the therapeutic world and in the humanities have accepted insights as enlightenment. It is a degradation of the word enlightenment and the tradition that was begun famously by Buddha, for people to take definitions, phenomena, and insights as equivalent to enlightenment. You should not fall into that error. It is a major error." Awesome. I really like that.

Tom

20th February 2007, 10:55 PM

Have some more. :)

______________________

"When people are at this point of being almost there, almost always they are still trying to see who or what they are. They think, Ã¢â‚¬ËœWhere am IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢? About all you can do is try to dissuade them from trying to perceive the actual one that they are. They are actually identified with the perceiver, the one who perceives things, and so they are trying to see. What you do is try to get them to give that up. When they do and discover that they are the seer, they de-identify from the seer and they say, Ã¢â‚¬ËœWait a minute, now I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even see? You will not let me do that? What have I got left?Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ They may have physiological troubles at this point; they may have pains or get sick to their stomach, because now the Truth is imminent and intimate, and they will try anything to avoid it. They are not doing this willfully. This is just the effect of what is now happening: the separating out of several identifications which are core states of being. At some point, through no mechanism at all, through no process at all, and from having done absolutely nothing, they will become enlightened. In the end, enlightenment is not a willful thing. It is a spontaneous event. You cannot make it happen. All you can do is set up the situation in which the probability is maximized."

Tempestinateapot

21st February 2007, 12:17 AM

Tom

21st February 2007, 12:32 AM

I'm not sure what you are getting at Tom? If you are saying a transcendental experience is not enlightenment, I would agree with you. But, using your quote (I'm assuming this is McKenna's since you didn't give any author credit), I think it speaks for itself...
All you can do is set up the situation in which the probability is maximized.IMO, it would be extremely difficult to discover enlightenment in a vacuum. There are usually precipitating factors...unless you were born enlightened.

It isn't Jed, and I should have given credit. Odd how they start to sound so much alike, though, isn't it?

Most people aren't born enlightened, but everyone has the potential to be enlightened. That potential can't be created where it isn't present. It takes work to experience it, as you know, but the work does not actually create enlightenment from something that is not enlightenment.

journyman161

21st February 2007, 12:43 AM

Sooooo... the writer would be...???

Tom

21st February 2007, 12:51 AM

Sooooo... the writer would be...???

Are you asking because you want to look it up?

Copy and Paste are my friends:

CONSCIOUSNESS OF
TRUTH
A Manual for the Enlightenment
Intensive
by Charles Berner
and
Mona Sosna
Copyright Ã‚Â© Mona Sosna 2005
All rights reserved.
Published by:
Mona Sosna
10 Kembla Close
Merimbula, NSW 2548
Australia
Donations for the authors may be sent to the above address.
First published by Charles Berner in 1977 under the title The Transmission of Truth, a
Manual for Enlightenment Masters; revised in 1981.
Cover design by Don Berendsen.
Illustrations selected from old Japanese Zenga and Chinese paintings and captioned
by Mona Sosna. Adapted by Don Berendsen.

journyman161

21st February 2007, 01:23 AM

Are you asking because you want to look it up?Partly... Also it helps with provenance. If I know from where it came it can help to know what weight to give it. eg. I'd credit Lobsang Rampa above Swami Getyanickersoff. :grin:

Tom

21st February 2007, 01:31 AM

You know, I could send you the pdf file.

Lobsang Rampa isn't very high up on my list of credible sources. I think I'll give that Swami a chance before I read any more of the Lobsang. For that matter, I'd even read something by President Bush first ... "If fool me can't get fooled again."

http://www.box.net/public/static/m5r6lvh0o3.pdf

Good thing I provided samples so you can decide for yourself.

I got the file on a Yahoo group.

journyman161

21st February 2007, 01:37 AM

Thanks for that . I was just browsing (attempting to make sense of in far less time than should be spent on it) the Lila Paradigm. I think I know what TiaTP & CFT mean by 'head exploding' :lol:

Tempestinateapot

21st February 2007, 01:43 AM

No, Jman, you aren't getting away with this one!! I shall expose you for the dastardly journeyman you are! :lol:

Swami GetyanickersoffSwami Get ya nickers off.

Tom

21st February 2007, 01:51 AM

Because I'm not sure how much time I have right now I wanted to save that thought for later ... http://www.lilaparadigm.org/

Isn't nickers just a funny word for pants?

journyman161

21st February 2007, 02:23 AM

*grins* Yep... it is. Or actually, it's 'knickers' & it's female panties... And there was me thinking it had slipped right by... *grins again*

Tom

22nd February 2007, 06:17 PM

Not even sure where I found this ... it was at some Yahoo group.

Sorry about the swear word on the picture. I forgot about that.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n15/TomSKinney/enlightenmentcartoon.jpg

wstein

23rd February 2007, 06:17 AM

If you want the long version of the cartoon, I recommend a 1970s film "Circle of Iron" staring David Carradine (available DVD).

lightworker

3rd March 2007, 05:17 AM

So the moral of the cartoon is... stop looking for something you already are. :shock:

Yes it's like a dead end because it's all there is and it's all too simple. Even though others are dissappointed at this, their own disapointment is oneness itself.

Yehay we are all Gods! :shock:

Tom

3rd March 2007, 10:52 AM

The wall and the explosives weren't properly explained in the cartoon. It wasn't clear why the character had to be caught up in the explosion, either. I still want to know how to make the process happen to get ready for the explosion and the "you are already enlightened" sign.

3rd March 2007, 01:22 PM

First off, I'm not claiming to be enlightened, but I would like to contribute my own perspective to this thread. I don't believe that we can be enlightened and still be incarnate. We may glimpse a portion of the truth through a trancendental experience, and experience a degree of enlightenment for that moment, but our true understanding of that moment of enlightenment exists only in that moment. If we live to continue our existence, then we have lost the true meaning of that experience in interpretation, in the act of incorporating it as an idea or belief within our understanding. It is very easy to mis-interpret a trancendental experience and to cling to misinterpretations or truths that we think we may have glimpsed.

Imo ultimately what most people consider reality is generated by our own consciousness and held into focus with our awareness and could be considered illusion. The only state I've experienced that doesn't fit this category is being at one with the one (Samadhi). I have experienced first hand what tempest refers to as Samadhi. My experience was remarkably similar, but I feel that she is overlooking an important aspect of that experience. While we can be at one with the universal consciousness, in a state of awareness, of being, we still maintain our consciousness, and awareness, we maintain our individuality, that is if we do not die and merge with the one.

I agree, that our sense of identity, of ego, of anything physical is stripped away in this experience, but if we live to tell of the experience, then we have not become one with the one. For this reason I think that the one is a network of all consciousness, awareness, aka life. The one is part of every entity, it permeates everything, and yet there is individuality. This awareness, this consciousness; is life. In a sense our individuality is a falsehood, because we are all inherently and intimately connected, we're all at the most fundamental level, in essence; OF the one. And so you could say everything is equal, everything is an illusion, etc.

The one mistake I feel tempest has made in her interpretation of existing as part of the one is that the one is a single, alone entity. In my opinion, it is the opposite. It is the underlying structure, permeating everything, and yet has chosen to divide its consciousness and awareness among seperate indivual entities with awareness and consciousness. It is the network of every living, aware, conscious being, as well as the medium of which everything else exists.

In my opinion we have the ability to retain our seperate awareness, if we choose, even at bodily death. It is logical to assume, and has been stated in this thread, that the one's motive for doing so is experience. I feel that we do in fact transfer our net experiences to the one at death, that we also transfer to it our individual sense of refined awareness and perception.

For these reasons, I feel the interpretation of being alone is incorrect, that in fact we're never alone, but always intimately connected. I perceived this fundamentally, as a transfer of energy that pulsed through the one, each individual consisting as a part of the one, percieving that energy and that energy flowing through them. Our very existence is our awareness focusing and interpreting that energy, thereby creating this "illusion" of reality. My interpretation doesn't leave me with the feeling of senselessness that tempest seems to have felt. That there is no purpose.

The purpose is simple, to be aware, conscious, to exist and experience, and to share that experience. That in itself is purpose. Also the very nature of the one, of our awareness and consciousness, is that we are creative. The possibilities of our existence, are endless. We could choose to merge with the one, and lose all sense of individual awareness, and that is an acceptable path, but it is not the only one. It is one of an infinite many possibilities.

I hope that Tempest can consider my perspective and interpretation, and hopefully realize that the truth is not so anti-climactic after all. That it in fact, is incomprehensible, and infinite. My own interpretation leaves me with a sense of awe and wonder, I experience joy in even seemingly mundane acts, because even the simplest thing is amazing. Enlightenment if anything, should bring sheer joy and amazement at the immensity of the truth, and it's implications.

star

3rd March 2007, 05:25 PM

That is really confusing.

Your saying that the enlightment of being alone is different from the enlightment of being interconnected with everything/evry1?

Well maybe in the energetic sense, but I think the mental proccess is different, or that your describing something else profound. But maybe offtopic.

Tempestinateapot

3rd March 2007, 06:21 PM

I don't believe that we can be enlightened and still be incarnate."Beliefs" get in the way of enlightenment. That's why you don't believe it.
It is very easy to mis-interpret a trancendental experience and to cling to misinterpretations or truths that we think we may have glimpsed. Transcendental experiences can get in the way of enlightenment. They can point the way, but they are not enlightenment.
our true understanding of that moment of enlightenment exists only in that momentIf your understanding exists only in something that occurred in the past, it was not enlightenment. Enlightenment does not go away.
The one mistake I feel tempest has made in her interpretation of existing as part of the one is that the one is a single, alone entity. In my opinion, it is the opposite. It is the underlying structure, permeating everything, and yet has chosen to divide its consciousness and awareness among seperate indivual entities with awareness and consciousness. It is the network of every living, aware, conscious being, as well as the medium of which everything else exists. It is both alone and everything at once. I've made no mistake.

For this reason I think that the one is a network of all consciousness, awareness, aka life. The one is part of every entity, it permeates everything, and yet there is individuality. This awareness, this consciousness; is life. In a sense our individuality is a falsehood, because we are all inherently and intimately connected, we're all at the most fundamental level, in essence; OF the one. And so you could say everything is equal, everything is an illusion, etc. You are saying the same thing I'm saying, and then calling it a mistake. :shock:
each individual consisting as a part of the oneOne, alone with it's many creations.
I hope that Tempest can consider my perspective and interpretationI don't need to consider your perspective, because there is such a small difference from mine, that it's not even worth considering. You are preaching to the choir. The major difference here is that you see things as I do, but think you are unenlightened. What more do you need to do? There is nothing to do, that's what keeps people blinded. They chase after every new guru with some tale to tell, join organizations, buy every new book, try every new practice, try to accomplish acts of the paranormal, even (shock of all shocks!) try to love everyone....all in a blind race to the finish line that they are already at. It's been there all along, but they refuse to see it. You refuse to see it if you cannot utter the words, "I am enlightened". From where I stand, you look pretty enlightened to me. :D

Also, bear in mind that much of this thread was a process, and I don't feel the same as I felt several weeks ago. I've come out the other end. I'm enlightened. Everything from here on out is a choice. There is nothing I must do. Just things to choose from. I am free.

lightworker

5th March 2007, 01:29 AM

Anyway it doesn't matter who is wrong or right because we are all one right? Right and wrong Good and bad..

so. the thoughts of whether or not you believe we can be enlightened or incarnate is oneness itself

transcendental experiences are just experiences and make you believe or not believe what you want but it is oneness playing with itself

whether you believe or not believe you understood enlightenment is oneness itself. and yes enlightenment is oneness itself. no beginning no end

calling a belief a mistake is oneness itself calling the belief a mistake.

If you get my post or not, if you agree or disagree it doesn't matter because as painterhypnogirls said... once you are enlightened nothing matters because you are free from right and wrong. You are Yin and Yang the ALpha and Omega. Beginning and End.

As i can see painterhypnogirl finally remembers that she is enlightenment itself. And this exchange of thoughts is just an exchange and is the beauty of the human mind. The mind in its everyday pattern of trying to prove it is superior to the spirit.

This whole forum is enlightenment. It's so simple no one wants to accept. But whether or not you accept it you are still Divine! :D

Tempestinateapot

5th March 2007, 01:42 AM

The mind in its everyday pattern of trying to prove it is superior to the spirit. Exactly. Our ego (what you call mind) wants to have the upper hand, because it wants to live on. It won't, except as a collection of experiences. It's a temporary thing, and fears it's demise. That's one reason people are afraid of death. Their ego fears what comes next, and as a result, many people don't even want to talk about physical death. Have you ever brought it up during a party, or where there are a bunch of people not into metaphysics? The way people react, you'd think you'd just shot someone in the group, the shock is palpable. I've done it before (I guess I'm into the shock value) :D and it always amazes me that at least one person will call later, wanting to talk about it. They were afraid to speak up in a group. It's such a taboo in our culture.

It's also such a taboo to say you are enlightened. So many people think that you have to reach perfection to be enlightened. It's merely a knowing. A light turns on. It doesn't make you some guru or avatar, it just makes you aware that you don't have to be perfect. That you, and everybody else are ok, just as we are, and we are One.

CFTraveler

5th March 2007, 02:19 AM

Also, thinking you're enlightened makes you think you don't have to do anything else-that you're done, and some of us are attached to that striving- I know I am. One thing is to know you're perfect, and another thing is to actually believe it.

Tom

5th March 2007, 02:23 AM

I'm inspired to suggest a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Anthony ... 131&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Anthony-Mello/dp/0385249373/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-8349265-8858019?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173061131&sr=8-1)

Sometimes I'll just pass along a recommendation, but most of the time (like this one) I tend to be picky about what to bother with taking the time to suggest. This is definitely worth the read and it is relevant to the thread here.

lightworker

5th March 2007, 02:30 AM

ok I do not know how to use that quote function but...

Quote by Tempestinateapot It's also such a taboo to say you are enlightened. So many people think that you have to reach perfection to be enlightened. It's merely a knowing. A light turns on. It doesn't make you some guru or avatar, it just makes you aware that you don't have to be perfect. That you, and everybody else are ok, just as we are, and we are One.End Quote by Tempestinateapot

Exactly. Clearly every spiritual aspirant should hear this. So before you go looking for a new spiritual guru or spiritual book, know this:

1. There is no brick wall or any other wall between you and enlightenment.
2. You don't need explosives and a kaboom (e.g. transcendental experience) to be enlightened.
3. You don't need to activate all your chakras. <--- most common misconception (good topic for discussion on the forums)
4. A beggar on the street has equal chances of being enlightened any minute just like you.
5. A murderer has equal chances of being enlightened any minute just like you.
6. You don't have to be in the NOW.
7. The ego doesn't have to die. (BTW another good topic for discussion)
8. There is nothing you are not seeing other than what you need to see. But if you want to see other places than this 3d world, you can master astral projection, but you don't have to.
9. You don't have to transcend duality.
10. You don't have to get what I'm saying.
11. this list can go on and on

The bottomline is, enlightenment, is just being yourself.

Now wasn't that easy. The fact is, most spiritual stuff out there tells you otherwise. The reason why you aren't being enlightened any minute is because you are looking for something you already are.

Still not getting it?

I'll put it this way. Let us say you have glasses and it represents enlightenment.

You have your glasses on a minute ago, then afterwards you can't seem to remember where you put it down. You try to look for it everywhere and you can't find it anywhere. You've searched in and out of every corner of the house. Chances are, you won't find your glasses. Then your sister is laughing at you and tells you your glassess are right there on top of your head. So all the time I was looking, I had my glasses with me all the time. I just forgot where i put it. But it was with me all the time. :shock:

Oh sorry for the long post...tsk
[/quote]

faerylight

5th March 2007, 03:45 AM

Maybe other people practice energy work, try to have OBEs/AP, try to get all their chakras powered up or raise their kundalini because they think it will give them some grand enlightenment, personally, I don't. I do it because I want to experience and I find it very entertaining, really.

Ok, so what if all this is an illusion? So what if we created this world and all we really are is a neuron firing in the mind of God or a memory bubble of God experiencing itself? Who cares. It doesn't change the fact that I'm still here, experiencing this existance, this incarnation. My main motivation seems to be the desire to experience - which isn't always a good thing if that desire gets out of balance, then self created delusions can result, which can be a valuable experience in itself - depending on your view, but that's a different thread. :idea:

I also have a strong drive to try to heal my internal wounds from the past. Healing the self is healing the whole, at least one tiny part of it. Somewhere inside I realize that other incarnations of my Higher Self are benefiting from my experiences here and have drawn / will draw / are drawing on them (depends on how you view the whole 'time' thing), understanding this is very motivating, for me anyway.

Tempestinateapot

6th March 2007, 08:26 PM

I also have a strong drive to try to heal my internal wounds from the past. Healing the self is healing the whole, at least one tiny part of it. Somewhere inside I realize that other incarnations of my Higher Self are benefiting from my experiences here and have drawn / will draw / are drawing on them (depends on how you view the whole 'time' thing), understanding this is very motivating, for me anyway.This is true. But, it's still part of the illusion. Even our Higher Self is part of the illusion...still in the game. Enlightenment is about recognizing what's in the game and what's not. Then, you have the choice to play or not. If you decide to play, enlightenment takes the fear out. There is nothing left to fear. It helps to give you a sense of humor, and not take the drama so seriously. Participate in the drama, but know that you are merely an actor in the grand play...who, by the way, has great powers of creativity.

tom99

7th March 2007, 08:31 PM

journyman161

7th March 2007, 09:31 PM

Just keep in mind they are her facts; yours can be different because you are not her. Each of us might be a subset of the Source & thus all One at a deeper (higher?) level, but your subset is different from hers & mine & everyone else's.

A favourite saying of mine from many years back is... 'If you & I are exactly the same, one of us is unnecessary!' Can't recall where I heard it or from whom, but it stuck.

Also, the realisation that it is all illusion may not be the finalisation of it all - after all, TiaTP is still here. It might be more the equivalent of passing kindergarten & finally showing she's ready to enter the real school.

To those of us still in the safety of kindergarten, the cold cruel world of the big school might seem to be a negative thing, but once we get there, who knows what new games & lessons there are to learn.

CFTraveler

7th March 2007, 09:45 PM

Interesting theory, everything is an illusion. A collective illusion.

It's still weird and useless & makes me feel like I'm standing still in life because it's an illusion and to say it a bit crude: everyone can just end their life right now with no consequences at all, except for getting more answers which is positive!?

I finally thought I had found some path in my life. Now it's suddenly all useless again and I can actually go on thinking about how superficial people are & in stead of trying to understand society.. I can just start hating it again and just being satisfied with that.

I'm studying as a social worker, but really.. what's the use of helping people if it's all an illusion?

Sorry for the negativity, obviously I'm having a hard time facing the 'facts'.. A teacher of mine used to say "Just 'cause something isn't real it doesn't mean it's not happening to you." The fact is, as Jman said, everyone's truth is different, and that doesn't mean that whatever understanding you have reached isn't valuable or real to you. She had to go through much introspection and the type of study she did to get to the point which she could give up her attachment to it.
If you are studying social work because you can better the world, then the use is that you can choose to because you want to better the world, not because there's a universal law somewhere that says that you have to. That's the difference. Enlightenment is the knowledge that you don't have to; God won't get mad at you, etc. Wanting to do it is expressing the truth for you, if that's what it is.
This talk of illusion and ultimate reality is not about meaning or power, or even reality itself, since there is no such thing- it is about not being attached to the outcome of whatever your desire is (and I'm sure this is another discussion). But if you do it for love, because it's in you, because you need to express it, that's not the same as the attachment to the result (a better world) and that's where 'letting go' is key.
I can't make this any more coherent right now 'cause my family is attached to the outcome of my making dinner. :wink:

Tempestinateapot

9th March 2007, 08:31 AM

Ok, so don't call it illusion. Call it what you want. That's merely a word that has different meaning to different people. Call it the "created" if that makes it more positive. You are a creator of your own experience. The difference between someone who is enlightened and someone who is not, is that the enlightened person has more choices because they are free to create whatever they want. The enlightened person is not bogged down by guilt, rules, and the illusion of right and wrong. Those things are created by the ego, not the Soul. The Soul is free.

I no longer watch the news about wars, poverty, famine and get all worked up. I don't fear because I know there is nothing to fear. If I want to create the experience of helping another person, I do that. If I don't feel like doing it, I won't. And, nobody can guilt me into it anymore. Guilt is becoming just a memory for me now. I still do what most would call "good" deeds, but I don't do it because there is some rule out there that if I don't I'm going to hell or my karma will get me. I'm free of those things. I do "good" things because I enjoy it, it makes me happy. It's what I want to create. That's the choice. If I chose to do "bad" things, I still wouldn't face any punishment, except maybe jail. That's an experience I don't want to create. :shock: So, I'm living in this illusion that's been created by me, my Higher Self, and the collective consciousness, which is all just One Being anyway. So, at this point in my evolution, I choose to do things that more represent the Oneness. I don't consider that "standing still in life". But, that is one option. There are a whole range of options to choose from. And, I like the ones that create an illusory smile on my face. :D

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand. Quantum Physics tells us that everything we can see, touch, taste, smell, hear, or experience is way over 95% just pure potential. Not exactly a void, but pretty darn close to it. So, solidness is one heck of an illusion. You are constantly creating, whether you choose to believe it or not.

As CF said, I've done the work to get to this place. I've paid my dues. And, the final letting go of attachments wasn't easy. It's right up there and could be rated similar to jumping off a cliff. The cool thing is that once you do jump, you discover that you aren't going to land with a squish and a bam. You can create a nice mattress or trampoline. :D

Tempestinateapot

9th March 2007, 08:52 AM

I'm studying as a social worker, but really.. what's the use of helping people if it's all an illusion? It's all in the creation. It is an illusion. People are superficial. It's called "ego". But, along with that is an indestructible Soul without boundaries. With creative powers that we can barely imagine. Do it for the creation, the experience. Pretty cool way to experience eternity...creating larger and vaster things as you evolve. Better than sitting in some heaven, strumming a harp, singing a hymn or two, and being blissed out with adoration for some heavenly avatar. I can see how that could get old really fast.

Tempestinateapot

13th March 2007, 12:15 AM

It just occured to me that the word "illusion" in this thread may be misunderstood. For clarification....the biggest illusion is that we are separate. The truth behind the illusion is that everything is One Mind. Just aspects of the larger whole. Your greatest enemy is a part of the larger whole, which makes it you. You and your enemy are One.

The second biggest illusion is that you are you. Or, that you are your ego, and that your soul is something separate from you. Your ego (you) is just a small aspect of the larger You (Soul). Along with this is the illusion that you will die. The only thing that dies is your human body. Eventually, your ego becomes a collection of experiences, as you merge with more and more "you's".

The third illusion is that your ego will be judged. And, that you have to work for some prize. I think that's the biggest illusion that people into metaphysics are still holding on to. People say they aren't. They know they won't be judged. So, why the huge need to work harder and harder to become enlightened? Why believe in karma? Isn't that a form of punishment? To make up for the bad deeds in another life. I used to justify it by believing that it was a mere balancing of the scales. I see now that it's just a salespitch to make us believe we still aren't good enough. Everything in this illusion is set up to make us believe we aren't good enough. If you say you are God, people freak. If you say you are enlightened, people freak. Why? Because it's saying that you are better than others? That's them judging you if you have the audacity to say you are God or enlightened. Oddly enough, most people into metaphysics like to think that they are "more" enlightened. That seems to be an ok thing to say. But they won't go all the way. They still feel the need to earn it, and they just haven't gotten good enough or done enough good deeds or sacrificed enough.

Enlightenment is not a prize. You don't win the God Sweepstakes. You can't. It's not set up that way. Particularly on this earth. You are set up for failure on this earth. No matter how good you get, you just haven't quite reached it. Even Jesus failed. If he asked God why God had forsaken him on the cross, then at that moment, Jesus didn't get it right. God is everything and cannot forsake Itself. So, maybe Jesus came back in another lifetime to make up for that one blunder? Rather silly, huh? Or, maybe since he had the ability to forgive, he forgave himself? Gets rather convoluted, this measurement of good and evil thing. Just another of the many illusions.

journyman161

13th March 2007, 12:31 AM

Tempestinateapot

13th March 2007, 12:45 AM

Probably because you chose to stay in the game? You may not have worded it that way in your head, but at some point, the decision was reached. I feel like I've known all of this for a long time. But, thinking it or believing it is really different from knowing it so deeply that it is a part of you. Everything I say, experience, think, or do is wrapped around this. It's like before, I had to think, "Oh, we are One, so that person that is pissing me off is just another aspect of me, so I need to feel that whatever they do is ok. *then comes the thinking really hard to feel that they are ok*

It's very different now. Even if I am pissed at someone, the awareness that they are ok, that we are One is second nature. It's ok to be pissed at them. I don't need to judge the situation or them or myself. It's just 2 aspects of One Mind that are hanging out and fighting. No judgement. No "they are bad, and I am good". Or, "they are right and I am wrong". Just acceptance. That's the big difference for me. And, the knowledge that I chose this experience, this human life. Well, I believed that before, so that's nothing new. What is new is that now that I'm enlightened. :D I'm choosing moment to moment to experience this life. And, the colors are now brighter, the earth is more wonderful, and a simple friendship is cherished and accepted. And, if not, that's ok too.

faerylight

13th March 2007, 01:05 AM

Do you ever examine why you are getting pissed off at someone? Other than just throwing the blanket of "I'm OK, You're OK" on it? Or do you subscribe to the idea that once you attain "enlightenment", you no longer need to self examine? Based on what you wrote, that's what it seems like you're saying, maybe I'm wrong.

Seems to me (and I'm just being honest here, really not trying to be antagonistic, even though it might sound that way) that the "I'm OK, You're OK" approach is a great way to skirt self examination and avoid exposing the nastier aspects of the self. Just my opinion based on my experience, might not be the same for you.

I'm finding that the ego doesn't die in one, fell swoop. It goes in stages and there's more than one aspect of the ego. Seems to make sense to me, if all that is around me has several levels of being, how can the ego be only a single aspect that has but a single death?

Do you ever find that the very thing that's pissing you off about someone else's behavior is an almost poetic reflection of how you are behaving yourself? "She's not listening to me!!!!" is often said by someone who is not listening themselves. That's the part that gets me every time!

Tom

13th March 2007, 01:20 AM

I almost had the illusion I knew what you're talking about there for a moment... *grins*

But seriously... why can I understand & agree with what you say but it doesn't alter my situation? I worked my way to most of what you've been talking about in this thread over many years by working through the stuff I saw, felt & rationalised, but somehow I'm still in the game.

I think I've got it. Imagine your friends are setting you up on a blind date. You have a perfect description of what this woman is going to look like and they even told you a few stories about her. You might even have seen a photograph, but it was an old photograph and she is in a crowd of people. The point so far is just that when you do go on your date you will recognize her when you see her, but so far you haven't really met her yet. After you have met her in the restaurant you will find that it is much different in person. Let's skip over a few steps because this is a family forum, and now you're fully committed: you've married her. That's a much different situation than back when your friends were at the "I've got an idea ... wouldn't they be good together?" stage. The comparison works even better than I first realized. Everyone knows that men go into relationships expecting to stay the same and the women are already thinking about the alterations they are going to make from the beginning.

Tempestinateapot

13th March 2007, 01:45 AM

Do you ever examine why you are getting pissed off at someone? Of course.

I'm finding that the ego doesn't die in one, fell swoop.I never said it did.

Do you ever find that the very thing that's pissing you off about someone else's behavior is an almost poetic reflection of how you are behaving yourself? Again, of course. That's hardly a new idea. I have a psych degree and that's called projection. I've had to write papers on it and participate in studies regarding it. Many New Age people seem to think they came up with the idea, which kind of pisses me off, so there must be a lesson in there, huh? :D

"I'm OK, You're OK" approach is a great way to skirt self examination and avoid exposing the nastier aspects of the self.You are missing the point. Which is understandable, because you don't know me and probably haven't read many other posts I've written. You can spend a lifetime examining yourself, searching your psyche, your ego, looking for the behaviors in yourself that need mirroring, beating yourself up for never measuring up to the standard you set for yourself. I should know, I'm the Queen of the Self-Beater-Uppers. I have spent decades and decades looking at myself, trying to figure out why I do what I do, what kind of effect it has on people, why certain things bother me....I could go on ad nauseum about this.

And, that's the point. At some time, you have to just let it go and recognize that you are never going to be good enough, wise enough, perfect enough. And, stop beating yourself up about it.

Something else that should be understood (which I have said several times in this thread)....this thread is about my process. I'm not teaching anything here, I'm not recommending anything, I'm not telling anyone they need to do what I've done. If someone asks a question, I'll answer. But, my answers are only from my perspective. From the point of view I hold in this body, in this lifetime, I don't have all the answers for anyone else. I just offer opinions and ideas. I should get a dime for every time I've said that my views are always open to change. I don't want anyone thinking that what I say or do is for everyone. I'm at this point in my life because this is the point I've reached. No one else need follow. It's a solitary path, anyway, from a human perspective. And, no one is going to walk the exact path I've walked. That would be boring for me and rather traumatic for anyone else. I wouldn't wish what I've gone through to get to this place on anyone else. I have faith they'll get to wherever they need to be when they need to be there.

faerylight

13th March 2007, 02:47 AM

Do you ever find that the very thing that's pissing you off about someone else's behavior is an almost poetic reflection of how you are behaving yourself? Again, of course. That's hardly a new idea. I have a psych degree and that's called projection. I've had to write papers on it and participate in studies regarding it. Many New Age people seem to think they came up with the idea, which kind of pisses me off, so there must be a lesson in there, huh? :D

Never said it was a 'new' idea. :wink: Just asking about it is all. It's something I find very curious indeed and wonder if it goes beyond what has been written in the psych books. I actually think it's a very useful tool in self examination.

[quote:1uoo3a1u]"I'm OK, You're OK" approach is a great way to skirt self examination and avoid exposing the nastier aspects of the self.You are missing the point. Which is understandable, because you don't know me and probably haven't read many other posts I've written. You can spend a lifetime examining yourself, searching your psyche, your ego, looking for the behaviors in yourself that need mirroring, beating yourself up for never measuring up to the standard you set for yourself. [/quote:1uoo3a1u]

Why does 'beating yourself up' have to enter into the equation? Self examination does not automatically mean you must follow it with a good self lashing. Why place judgement on your own behavior? I mean, beyond the concept of choosing which energies you want to put out there from careful discernment of which energies drive your actions. You can observe, make any necessary corrections via understanding or not, it's your choice, and simply move on.

And, that's the point. At some time, you have to just let it go and recognize that you are never going to be good enough, wise enough, perfect enough. And, stop beating yourself up about it.

Perfect enough for what? Sounds like a very imbalanced ideal with roots that are deeply intertwined within a very outdated belief system. We are all human, the same grace and understanding you extend to others should also be extended to yourself. Doesn't mean you have to toss the whole idea of striving to improve out the window, just the beating up part. :wink:

Something else that should be understood (which I have said several times in this thread)....this thread is about my process. I'm not teaching anything here, I'm not recommending anything, I'm not telling anyone they need to do what I've done. If someone asks a question, I'll answer. But, my answers are only from my perspective. From the point of view I hold in this body, in this lifetime, I don't have all the answers for anyone else. I just offer opinions and ideas. I should get a dime for every time I've said that my views are always open to change. I don't want anyone thinking that what I say or do is for everyone. I'm at this point in my life because this is the point I've reached. No one else need follow. It's a solitary path, anyway, from a human perspective. And, no one is going to walk the exact path I've walked. That would be boring for me and rather traumatic for anyone else. I wouldn't wish what I've gone through to get to this place on anyone else. I have faith they'll get to wherever they need to be when they need to be there.

Yes, it is your process, but, you chose to make it public, thereby exposing yourself to the honest opinions and observations of your peers. No one is expecting you to have all the answers for yourself or for them, at least I'm not. I'm just sharing my thoughts here, that's what this forum is about, afterall. We come here to explore, by posting our thoughts and processes, it is an invitation for comment. Sometimes those comments are not aligned with what we want to hear, but they still have their value, if not for you, maybe for others.

I've been reading your posts since you joined, just because I have a very recent 'joined date' and a low post count does not mean I haven't been around here as long if not longer than you. :wink:

I was pondering the idea of understanding what we are verses who we are; a quote I heard "What we are never changes, who we are never stops" made me think of this. I think there are aspects of the ego, of the self that contribute hugely to the 'experience', we are each a facet of a greater being. I think it's very important to have a clear idea of just what this 'ego' is that everyone wants to kill/transform. I see that I have lived most of my life behind a veil, a veil of thinking I was all there was too me - this, to me, seems to be what most are talking about when they talk of ego - that identity that wants to be all there is and seeks validation from every conceivable source.

I had a very mystical experience about a year ago where I understood that I am but one incarnation of many, a flavor, a note, if you will. Some aspects of our egos lend us that flavor, and make our experiences unique and interesting. That aspect of identity, of ego does not seem to feel threatened by the idea that it is not eternal, yet, in some strange way, it is eternal because it IS. Hard to explain and just kind of doing a stream of consciousness here, so, pardon my processing (and my spelling, lol). :mrgreen:

Tempestinateapot

13th March 2007, 03:00 AM

Why place judgement on your own behavior?That's my whole point.

Perfect enough for what? Sounds like a very imbalanced ideal with roots that are deeply intertwined with a very outdated belief system.We are obviously from very different generations. Ever heard of "Stepford Wives"? When you were born in the early 50's, perfection was expected. You are blessed that you weren't raised with those outdated beliefs. Saves you a lot of grief. This is why it's my process and not yours.

I've been reading your posts since you joinedhehe! You'll have to see 2,700 other posts that I wrote in 2006. I joined Jan. 1, 2006. Deleted my own account on New Years, created a new name, and here I am. :D

faerylight

13th March 2007, 03:08 AM

Hee Hee! Gotcha beat... I found AD late December 2005. :P I know you, Queen of the Fluffy Bunnies, or did Nay take that title? :shock:

Stepford wives, ya, that's a scary thought. I'm in my mid 30's, a child of the 70's. Still know A LOT about beating myself up though. In fact, responding to your post made me process some things for myself, something I am currently processing regarding lack of self forgiveness - thanks for that! :)

Tempestinateapot

13th March 2007, 03:16 AM

Hee Hee! Gotcha beat... I found AD late December 2005.Ok, since we are making this a contest....I lurked for several months before I joined. :twisted: I win! :lol:

Yeh, that's me...fluffy bunny. Can't you tell by this whole thread? It's all about love and light. :lol: I think I just blew my cover. Now, I'm the insane, majorly depressed bunny. :P
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-125.gif

Tom

13th March 2007, 04:06 AM

No, in terms of migrating over to Astral Dynamics, I think I win.

faerylight

13th March 2007, 04:12 AM

The point I was making is that I've been around here a while longer than you might have thought.

Why place judgement on your own behavior?That's my whole point.

Just to clarify - I'm sure we both appreciate the difference between self examination and self judgement. IMO, examination is healthy, at least it is for me right now. Beating yourself up over what you examine is not helpful and only further perpetuates a state of internal imbalance. It's like swinging back and forth between "right" and "wrong" behavior, good and bad, reward and punish. Sounds a lot like Tolle's idea of the egoic mind in action, imo.

[quote:hye91irv]Perfect enough for what? Sounds like a very imbalanced ideal with roots that are deeply intertwined with a very outdated belief system.We are obviously from very different generations. Ever heard of "Stepford Wives"? When you were born in the early 50's, perfection was expected. You are blessed that you weren't raised with those outdated beliefs. Saves you a lot of grief. This is why it's my process and not yours.[/quote:hye91irv]

We all have our crosses to bear. We all have generational ideals to deal with. Not all of us fit those ideals, which can lead to us feeling less than "worthy". It's a funny thing we humans seem to do - for some reason, we like to impose ideals and values on ourselves, then make everyone wear a mask that says we measure up to these imagined ideals that are sold to us by the 'system'. Strength in numbers I suppose, people fear what is different and want to keep like with like.

God forbid anyone steps outside those definitions, those boundaries. Somewhere along the line we accept these imposed ideals as something we *need* to be (belief system construct), if we don't embody those ideals, we have to deal with ridicule from society AND ourselves. It's all conditioning, like MoM referred to in another post... My point is that while my generation might not have the same imposed ideals as your generation, we are all exposed to pressures of societal standards and conditioning. One is not greater than another, just different.

Your process is intertwined with my process, hard to separate the two sometimes, and this whole process is a shared process with others whom we may not even hear from, folks just passing by reading this thread, just to name one example. Like it or not, we are sharing this experience, so get off the "it's MY process!" thing already, wuddya? :P Sheesh!

star

13th March 2007, 07:38 PM

I did not really enjoy the Astral Pulse.

Tempestinateapot

13th March 2007, 10:43 PM

I did not really enjoy the Astral Pulse.Ok, that came out of left field. I don't recall anyone talking about AP. Unless you're assuming that's where Tom migrated from. :D From now on, Tom will be a bird in my head. Can't get that picture out.

I thought I'd step in here and do a little moderating thing. We are all entitled to our opinion, but Astral Dynamics doesn't encourage people to speak negatively about other spiritual forums. And, I'm not saying anybody did anything wrong here. I just don't want this to degenerate into a bitch session about other forums. But, you're welcome to bitch about me. 8)

Tom

13th March 2007, 11:08 PM

I'm hoping that Journeyman sees the post I had earlier on this page still. It got no reaction so far. The direct response to his post. :)

One of the things I like to do is to put food out for the birds. At first I could count them on the fingers of one hand, but now there are over one hundred every day and they eat about 6 pounds of seed every day.

journyman161

13th March 2007, 11:43 PM

I think I've got it. Imagine your friends are setting you up on a blind date. You have a perfect description of what this woman is going to look like and they even told you a few stories about her. You might even have seen a photograph, but it was an old photograph and she is in a crowd of people. The point so far is just that when you do go on your date you will recognize her when you see her, but so far you haven't really met her yet. After you have met her in the restaurant you will find that it is much different in person. Let's skip over a few steps because this is a family forum, and now you're fully committed: you've married her. That's a much different situation than back when your friends were at the "I've got an idea ... wouldn't they be good together?" stage. The comparison works even better than I first realized. Everyone knows that men go into relationships expecting to stay the same and the women are already thinking about the alterations they are going to make from the beginning.Nice analogy... but I was hoping that realisation would bring some change to my situation some time before it became as comfortable as old shoes... :lol:

It's a bit disappointing to struggle through years (decades) of destructuring the belief systems & coming to a new viewpoint to find it doesn't change me. This 'marriage' just ain't all it's cracked up to be. :grin:

Tempestinateapot

14th March 2007, 12:03 AM

It's a bit disappointing to struggle through years (decades) of destructuring the belief systems & coming to a new viewpoint to find it doesn't change me.What? You were expecting to become an avatar? :lol: This is my theme, here. You don't have to beome one to be enlightened.

I was browsing another metaphysical forum, and was rather startled to see so many posts about becoming perfect. That's not the word they used. It's all wrapped up in rainbows and pretty pictures, but that's basically what everyone thinks is the end goal. How you must have Christ Consciousness, feel love for everyone, become a better person, act like Jesus, etc., etc. The startlement was because I was seeing how I used to write posts. Now, I see the futility in working towards perfection. Not only is it unattainable as a human (name one), I don't think it's the purpose. But, it can, and probably is, the outcome. Letting go of the need to judge yourself, things, and others has a strange effect of making you a better (ick) person. Better is such a loaded word. Accepting is really the only word that comes to mind.

journyman161

14th March 2007, 12:12 AM

Well I understand yoru PoV - we talked it over early in this thread. But even so I have this drive that doesn't seem ego-driven, but rather seems to be basic to me, to the being I am.

It has driven me all my life & rooting out the beliefs & expectations of early life, demolishing the systems of thought I was programmed with, none of these have altered the basic drive & have actually strengthened it.

Events of a year or so back brought it fully to life, altering what was a unfocussed desire & dissatisfaction with life into a clearer idea of what it was I'm meant to be doing & then the culmination of those events removed the immediate possibility of fulfillment.

I don't expect to be perfect, nor to love everyone without reservation, but it would be nice to find the path that allows me to get on with why I'm here at all. Somehow, even though I have come to very similar views to those of TiaTP, I just can't see my next step being just an acceptance. The feeling is more like I've been sitting on my bum for waaaaay too long already & I am past due for getting on with'it'

Tempestinateapot

14th March 2007, 12:40 AM

I have this drive that doesn't seem ego-driven, but rather seems to be basic to me, to the being I am. Did it occur to you at all that the "drive" could be just to experience? I mean, how many possibilities could there be for an end goal? It seems to me there's likely only 2 choices...to merge totally with Source or stay in the illusion of separateness to experience. With the likelihood that the experiences would get grander and grander.

I'm starting to really doubt intuition. That little "knowing" thing that everyone claims to have (including me). There are just too many people "knowing" things that are completely opposite. People talk about their "guidance" like it's something all of us should accept and believe without fail. How many times has your intuition been wrong? The hits are always firecrackers and bottle rockets. It's because it's exciting to get something "right". But, how many times has that intuition lead you down the wrong way? Most people don't want to admit that. I've had some really big intuitions that turned out to be just my ego's imaginings. So, I've started a new policy. What do I know for absolutely sure? Pull out all the hopes and dreams, the beliefs, the intuitions and what's left? I exist. That's it. All the rest is speculation based on emotions. And, where do emotions come from? The ego. The most temporary thing on the galactic playground.

So, for me, wandering around without a belief system is a wonderful thing. Honestly, I find my beliefs can change as fast as reading one post or book and then reading another that says something different. The more I let go of attachment to beliefs, the faster things seem to change. It's rather exciting and freeing. I don't feel so bogged down or feel the need to convince anyone of anything. Yes, I still do that. Duh. But, I'm doing it less often every day. And, I can look at other people with a kinder eye. The best part is that I can look at myself with a kinder eye.

wstein

14th March 2007, 08:56 AM

Even Jesus failed. If he asked God why God had forsaken him on the cross, then at that moment, Jesus didn't get it right. God is everything and cannot forsake Itself. So, maybe Jesus came back in another lifetime to make up for that one blunder? Rumor is that there will be a second coming. He seemed so close the last time but alas :(

Tom

14th March 2007, 02:09 PM

star

14th March 2007, 05:20 PM

So, for me, wandering around without a belief system is a wonderful thing. Honestly, I find my beliefs can change as fast as reading one post or book and then reading another that says something different. The more I let go of attachment to beliefs, the faster things seem to change. It's rather exciting and freeing. I don't feel so bogged down or feel the need to convince anyone of anything. Yes, I still do that. Duh. But, I'm doing it less often every day. And, I can look at other people with a kinder eye. The best part is that I can look at myself with a kinder eye.

It makes energy work much more open to different things that way.

Also, I'm not sure that Jesus even existed, so a second coming might not be possible huh?

CFTraveler

15th March 2007, 12:50 PM

15th March 2007, 02:44 PM

okay...i admit i haven't been able to find it in myself to read through this 'entire' thread, but out of the last few pages this jumped out at me.

tempest wrote:

And, that's the point. At some time, you have to just let it go and recognize that you are never going to be good enough, wise enough, perfect enough. And, stop beating yourself up about it.

from glazing...i'm assuming (temp) you're at the let-it-all-go phase. still something about this sentence is trapped (still). just wondering if you see that as well?!? personally thinking...you still need to work through some of the "good/not good" stuff.

just that from where you speak of coming from...you think it would be more...

"and, at some point you awaken to the truth that you are good, wise, and perfect, and have always been". not that i'm trying to put words in your mouth! ;)

faerylight

15th March 2007, 04:01 PM

Even Jesus failed. If he asked God why God had forsaken him on the cross, then at that moment, Jesus didn't get it right. God is everything and cannot forsake Itself. So, maybe Jesus came back in another lifetime to make up for that one blunder? Depends on what version of that scene you read, since there are more than one. In my favorite, he says "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." So there's one for every philosophy.

That's the version I feel is closest to the "truth". Who knows though, so much about that book is corrupt - by way of subtraction of texts, bad translation and downright fabrication *sigh*. That's another thread though. :)

faerylight

15th March 2007, 04:03 PM

still something about this sentence is trapped (still). just wondering if you see that as well?!? personally thinking...you still need to work through some of the "good/not good" stuff.

That's what I was sensing too, just not great at expressing exactly what I mean to say.

15th March 2007, 04:36 PM

lol..... :twisted:
YOU'RE GREAT AT EXPRESSING WHAT YOU MEAN!!!

you just don't feel you can be honest here. and you can't. there's something else that reigns above honesty in this forum.
can you guess what it is??? ;)

of course, you 'can' be honest but again it splits, and ultimately ends up stuck. one way and people just take things way too "personal", the other way and it goes back to that poetic mirroring thing and the chance that we're taking it way too personal. ah, the little glitches that arise with waking up. ;)
to me...when everything feels to be constructed from the same material = illusion. pretending, playing, manipulating, and mucking through all the *make-believe*. agreeing to be weak so we don't intimate. pretending to be nice so we don't hurt. playing that we're friends so the rules of engagement are clear, etc. etc. things that are all very messy & can't be cleaned up or straightened out...just needs to be dropped altogether. speaking in a general sense about society. not here, not there, not anyone in particular. (see...how i feel i *have* to add that so no one gets defensive?!?)

i'd love to speak freely without worrying about that garbage, but that leads to heavy moderation, thread locking, robert warnings, deleted posts, and ultimately getting banned. not to mention the blood-letting! ;) that of course is why i started my own forum though, but no one hangs out there. my point being..............people LIKE the drama! people like to amass and hammer stuff out into 'nothings'. not that there isn't a whole lot of great stuff happening here, but a lot of it ring-around-rosy (pointless yaw-yawing).

mostly from what i'm aware of a big glitch for people (besides ego) is EXPECTATIONS. very interesting subject to me. how unbelievably hard it is to let go of what's expected (GOOD or BAD)...and why?!?

Tempestinateapot

15th March 2007, 05:55 PM

Hey MoM, I wondered if you'd ever get around to this thread. It's right up your alley (you cat!). :D I think you jumped the gun a little bit by not reading the entire thread. But, it's long, and not really about anyone but me (in my head), so why would you?

from glazing...i'm assuming (temp) you're at the let-it-all-go phase. still something about this sentence is trapped (still). just wondering if you see that as well?!? personally thinking...you still need to work through some of the "good/not good" stuff. I like how you call me "temp" instead of "Tempest" or "Tiatp". Since I am rather temporary. Don't you think my new name fits me?

Back to the subject, but no, I don't think I need to work through the good/not good stuff. I get it. What I do with it after that is merely a choice. Robert and I had a little chit chat about all this. I wanted to quit because I figured I was going to piss off 99% of the people who bothered to read this thread. I was in a very angry phase at the time. Which was really necessary for me based on how important a God of love had been to me. Robert wanted me to hang in there, said he also had been through the same thing. Listening to him and CF paid off in the long run. Their basic tenet was that if everything is an illusion, and God is really a hands-off God, then why not do what makes you happy? And, that can include love.

So, things have kind of come full circle. I see the illusion, I see the ego and it's role, but as long as I'm wearing these human clothes, I'm not going to be able to get rid of the ego completely. Unless I want to go be a hermit, which doesn't appeal to me at this point. Maybe later. So, for me, it's come down to....what does it matter? Live in the illusion, enjoy the illusion, but know it for what it really is. Knowing on a very high level doesn't mean you can't play the game anymore. It just means you play with a lot more awareness. So, if I'm going to play, I have a lot of choices. I can evolve, I can devolve, or I can be stagnant. The first one is really the only one that appeals to me, though devolving now and then can be kind of funny. :twisted: Hey, that's why I've got you. :lol: 8)

After going through this ummm...I don't even know what to call it, everything seems a lot clearer, a lot more beautiful, and a lot more funny. Unlike you (I think?), I think we created all this. And, it's really rather cool. I don't see the world as a place of horror or a place of goodness anymore. I see it's just one hell of a creation.

faerylight

15th March 2007, 06:05 PM

Responding to MoM :

Ya, huh. I agree it is tough to say what you want to say, in a bold and clear manner without getting jumped on or flat out ignored. Diluted honesty is what it feels like, only being able to gently hint at what you really want to say for fear someone will take it the wrong way or go off on you (gotta be gentle with those egos! they are a touchy lot). If everyone (including myself) would just stop looking at how they might be getting their toes stepped on and look at what is being said in a more objective way, might be a lot more sharing of ideas (growth?) and a lot less digging in of heels into our own belief systems.

Funny you mention expectations. I was just talking about this with my sister-in-law the other day and have done some pondering on this. Still pondering on how much I have allowed expectations to taint my vision and generally screw me up.

About doubting intuition all together - not a wise move, imo. Again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's important to look at what you *think* your gut is telling you for signs of belief paint. Scrape it clean and look at again. I have often mistaken what I have *wanted* to see and feel for genuine intuitive signals from the Higher Self. Easy to do! What I have learned to do is to hold those in 'reserve', examine them for signs of internal garbage and see which ones turn out to be of real substance. After doing this for almost a year now, I'm just starting to be able to discern true intuitive signals from feelings that are actually driven by my egos desires and fears. No expert at it by any means, but I have found through personal experience that while intuition might not be the end all be all, it is an important tool, but one that must be honed.

Tempestinateapot

15th March 2007, 06:07 PM

Oh, and about this quote:
And, that's the point. At some time, you have to just let it go and recognize that you are never going to be good enough, wise enough, perfect enough. And, stop beating yourself up about it. Since I know what I mean, but apparently some don't, I'll clarify. I am good enough. Always was, always am, always will be, because there is no contest. I AM doesn't make mistakes. We just create experiences.

Tempestinateapot

15th March 2007, 06:19 PM

I don't know, faerylight, honing intuition can still be just your ego mucking things up. I can be really psychic at times, but rather than helping me, for the most part, it's gotten me in trouble. Other people don't like it when you know something before they do. Unfortunately, I'm most psychic about "bad" things, which causes me to be to reactionary and jumpy.

Now, I figure my Higher Self is in it for the experience. And, HS wants me to be the creator of my own experience. Otherwise, I'd just be a puppet. So, while I'm trusting that my Higher Self (who is still playing the game in the illusion, but with awareness, by the way), is with me, that no connections are broken, I don't think HS's motive is to make everything lovely for me. I'm supposed to do that, if that's what I want to create. Once you get past all the lovey dovey stuff, everything is just fine the way it is. Everybody gets to choose their own path, and a bad one is just as good as a good one. Because, neither one is really bad or good. Evolving is just a choice. It's not an imperative. Seems kind of a logical conclusion, but I don't see how even that can be known without a doubt. Like I said before, the only thing I really know for absolutely positive is that I exist. Everything else is up for debate.

tom99

15th March 2007, 06:32 PM

So, things have kind ofLive in the illusion, enjoy the illusion, but know it for what it really is. Knowing on a very high level doesn't mean you can't play the game anymore. It just means you play with a lot more awareness. So, if I'm going to play, I have a lot of choices.

I don't see the world as a place of horror or a place of goodness anymore. I see it's just one hell of a creation.

Actually I'm getting close to this set of mind you're describing. It took me a couple of weeks or something to digest all of this information (combined with a lot of thinking in the past year).

I turned very indifferent/angry to other people and life in general the past couple of weeks. Negativity was ruling all of my thoughts..

I came to the conclusion I'm going to 'fight' for my dreams anyway. Even if it's all useless, primary/secundary education has created my self in this reality. So the easiest thing for me is just to live by it & be content with everything I do and who I am in general. Just living the illusion.

I'm doing much better now, thanks for the replies btw :)

faerylight

15th March 2007, 06:41 PM

I hear you and I actually don't subscribe to the belief that the HS is *as* involved as most would like to think. I do think this incarnation is in it for the experience and that there is definitely an element of free will with respect to this incarnations decisions and choices. I also don't think that your HS's sole purpose is to make everything all lovey dovey for you. For example, I had a choice to make about a year ago regarding whether or not to sign up for a type of training. I asked someone who has proven ability to communicate with HS's to ask my HS what it thought and here's what it/I said "Why not? She'll learn something." This response gave me pause and made me think about the whole 'experience' gig. No matter how it might have turned out - a sham or the real deal, it's true, I would 'learn' something, lol.

I also think we are each of us connected to our HS at all times, it's a matter of awareness of that connection and ability to 'download' info from that aspect of ourselves, not a matter of whether or not the connection is there. Intuition, imo, is a form of connection with the HS, just takes practice and care to learn how to discern the info coming from the HS, as said in my previous post.

I don't see that the only thing intuition is good for is to avoid bad situations though (not saying you are saying that, but just in case...). I see it as being a very helpful tool in communicating with people and understanding what they need, especially when they are not able to vocalize it well themselves. Can really help when one is working as a therapist. :) Something I think I should have done with this life and might still. That's the kind of intuition I find very useful. It also helps in attaining more information about people and situations from 'behind the scenes', allowing me to make more informed decisions that hopefully faciliate the growth of all concerned, growth being one of those words that many find easy to put a rosy spin on. A lot of growth can come from unpleasant situations, so, that's the kind of growth I'm talking about - the good, the bad, the ugly, not just the puppy dogs, ice cream and rainbow kind. :)

Tempestinateapot

15th March 2007, 06:41 PM

Hey, tom99, I should have said don't listen to anything I say. That's kind of what the subject title was about. :lol:

But, if you are going down this road...

Even if it's all useless, Personally, I don't think any of it is useless. Far from it. I think it's all about creating and experiencing. If I have to break down and agree with Jman, :roll: I would say that's the purpose. :wink: Just create, but don't judge your (or anyone else's) creations. Almost impossible as a human not to judge, but the closer we can get to unconditional acceptance, the more expansive the creation will be. IMO that is NOT Humble. :lol: BTW, I despise that word, "humble". Very passive-aggressive. IMO.

Tempestinateapot

15th March 2007, 06:54 PM

I see it as being a very helpful tool in communicating with people and understanding what they need, especially when they are not able to vocalize it well themselves. Can really help when one is working as a therapist. Whoa ho! I actually had to train myself out of this. Unless you are actually working as an intuitive, and advertising yourself as a psychic, intuition is a bad way to go in a therapist/client situation. It's too easy to jump to conclusions. The key is to ask a zillion, billion questions and never assume you know what they mean. Bad mojo, and can really screw up a client when you think you've got their answer.

It may work differently for other people, but intuition in a situation like that is a huge wall between me and a client. During training, in my very first videotaped "test" therapy session, I was beaten up bad by the instructor and other student evaluations for "leading" the client based on what "I" thought they needed. I learned that lesson pretty fast.

Totally derailing the thread here, but I thought it important to comment on. For any future therapists. Just my mistakes. Not saying they are absolute across the board.

faerylight

15th March 2007, 07:19 PM

I see it as being a very helpful tool in communicating with people and understanding what they need, especially when they are not able to vocalize it well themselves. Can really help when one is working as a therapist. Whoa ho! I actually had to train myself out of this. Unless you are actually working as an intuitive, and advertising yourself as a psychic, intuition is a bad way to go in a therapist/client situation. It's too easy to jump to conclusions. The key is to ask a zillion, billion questions and never assume you know what they mean. Bad mojo, and can really screw up a client when you think you've got their answer.

I see what you are saying, that's why I say again, it's not the end all be all and to hold what you get in reserve in certain situations and see if it pans out. It's a balance. I agree, asking a zillion, gillion and one questions is extremely important. Often, simply by asking the right question, the person will find their own answer, which is the point I think. What I am saying is to use other skills, like intuition, to aid in your understanding of the other person and what is going on underneath, not to impose what you *think* they need or are trying to say onto them. That intuition can help guide you to asking those very important questions! This is not something that is easily done all the time with 100% accuracy and takes a lot of practice and honing.

My point is that intuition is an important skill and has it's uses. I don't think it's wise to toss it aside just because one finds themselves using it incorrectly or reacting to it badly. :)

15th March 2007, 07:42 PM

faerylight...

love that "belief paint"!!!! :D

i always equate it to folks living in glass houses. obsessively cleaning the windows with filthy rags, and complaining that the view "outside" is dirty, but they're so squeaky clean.

I agree it is tough to say what you want to say, in a bold and clear manner without getting jumped on or flat out ignored.
that's what mod status is for! ;)

What I have learned to do is to hold those in 'reserve', examine them for signs of internal garbage and see which ones turn out to be of real substance.
amen sister light! yeah, "reserve" it's a decent shelf. good for placing just about everything, and forgetting about it! ;) like the way you think girl.

temp...(yes your name suits you). & furious storms are vital so i like the tempest part. and tea is always good.

if everything is an illusion, and God is really a hands-off God, then why not do what makes you happy? And, that can include love.
and murder!

So, for me, it's come down to....what does it matter? Live in the illusion, enjoy the illusion, but know it for what it really is. Knowing on a very high level doesn't mean you can't play the game anymore. It just means you play with a lot more awareness.
a very high level huh. you don't need me to devolve! ;) what you're speaking of above though.....you do understand that's psycho/socio-pathic right?!? not that there's anything 'wrong' with pathicness of course.
qu'est que c'est?!?

because there is no contest.
no, but are there RULES to abide by???

faerylight

15th March 2007, 07:42 PM

Then again, I'm not a trained therapist... So, what do I know. Good point, TiaTP, makes me think about about discernment of intuition on another level. :)

Tempestinateapot

15th March 2007, 07:55 PM

you do understand that's psycho/socio-pathic right?!? Oui, Mademoiselle! That's me...Ms. Psycho/Sociopath. :lol:

that's what mod status is for! Eh, get over it, already. :P

journyman161

15th March 2007, 07:59 PM

While catching up, something jumped out at me... sometimes people are so caught up in how they are that they can say things which look really obvious but never see them.

i'd love to speak freely without worrying about that garbage, but that leads to heavy moderation, thread locking, robert warnings, deleted posts, and ultimately getting banned. not to mention the blood-letting! Wink that of course is why i started my own forum though, but no one hangs out there. my point being..............people LIKE the drama! people like to amass and hammer stuff out into 'nothings'. not that there isn't a whole lot of great stuff happening here, but a lot of it ring-around-rosy (pointless yaw-yawing)Seems to me that there is a direct relationship between how MoM likes to be & the fact nobody hangs out on her forum.

I think maybe pushing other people's buttons leads to being left alone - you get to wind up in exactly the universe you want but there's nobody to share it with - that's why we have 'social' conventions. It's why ALL the religions & philosophies concentrate on the maxim of 'treat others as you wish to be treated.'

Only in a moderated environment can MoM indulge in her 'direct' talk - anywhere else the talk quickly drops into a slanging match that leads to one side or both leaving, never to return. Here in AD, there are Mods to watch that things don't reach that point, & while we are human & make mistakes, the popularity of the site shows that it is what people want. They can express themselves to maybe a 95% level of true-to-selfness & know that the other party will be held to account as well.

Open slather of saying exactly what you feel when you feel it would seem to be the verbal equivalent of the instant-creation from thought that goes on in the astral - one wrong stray thought & you have a monster to battle.

So while MoM may like to rant & rattle bars to her hearts content, it is only in an environment like this she gets to do it. If it was OK with people to do it to each other without restriction, there would be folk hanging out over there rather than here.

Now... back to our regularly scheduled programs...

15th March 2007, 09:22 PM

oh, ouch. you got me! i'm a just a complete & total b*tch. an idiot without purpose! sob, sob, sob..........................why doesn't *anybody* like me??? b'cuz i'm so miserable? b'cuz i spew nothing but venom? i'm hateful, make no points, just like to amuse my sickness of tearing down everything that good & just, and holy??? my god......i'm so not worthy of this special place! :cry: :cry:

you guys get some sort of stock download when you reach mod status???
'cuz y'all are spewing & spinning the same stuff.

Eh, get over it, already.
you first!

what did i do???????

mention that there's rules in place here? there absolute is.
that there's some great exchange, but a lot of pointless banter? i believe that to be true.
that my forum has no rules & currently little exchange. true.
that folks have a difficult time with expectations? true.

that's all i've written in this thread, and somehow that's enough to warrant an attack on me from mod status? sorry, but that's just a little absurd!

and no PM? the last thread (dear journeyman) that you just finished regulating on my behalf...you suggested keeping personal slights to private. yet...you don't seem to practice what you preach. interesting. another interesting point is that astral practitioner & i had already to agreed to let it go before you intervened. so, some us don't need as much *baby*sitting as you'd like to believe. but then...what's mod status good for if you can't throw it around a little?!?

and...i'm well aware of *everything* i write. but appreciate you guys keeping such a CLOSE eye on me.

faerylight

15th March 2007, 09:43 PM

Once again, what was promising to become an interesting exchange is swiftly diverted to the dung heap. *sigh*

JMan may have been trying to drive home a point, but, sadly, I think the point he was trying to make betrayed his misunderstanding of what MoM and I were trying to say. Being able to be open and honest without having to dilute the point of our comments is NOT the same as blatent attack of another person's beliefs, etc. There is definitely middle-ground between here and there.

I can see that it is harder with the written word to fully appreciate what someone else is saying and where they are coming from - less info to go on, no body language to read, no tone of voice (well, that's debatable, you can feel energy in a post which might be the same thing - depends on how objective your feelers are though), no facial expressions, etc. This requires more effort on BOTH the writer AND the reader, imo. I do agree that sometimes the readers on this forum are over-protected at the cost of the writer having to be OVERLY careful, where what is being said is watered down, sometimes to the point where it *feels* like you aren't actually saying anything at all anymore.

All in all there aren't that many problems on this forum though (that is if you don't count lack of real, mind expanding conversation and overt spewing of belief statements as a problem). I do think the issues that we brought up are a problem with society at large though and not isolated to this forum.