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Korpo
3rd April 2008, 01:10 PM
Whenever I try to focus on my breath I get strong problems with the blockages in my forehead. Muscles and tissues in my scalp and my face and all around my 3rd eye act strongly, tense up and induce chronic feeling of enormous tension.

While I do energy work on my blockages, the blockages in my head have been a real problem. Their intensity is similar to a headache or tooth ache in that it is hard to consciously deal with them. Sometimes it feels as if my head itself is in a bench vise, but what actually tenses up around my skull are my own muscles!

Whenever I try to follow the breath I feel blocked up structures in my forehead or behind my nose especially strongly, even if I pay attention to my abdomen only. Focussing my awareness around the navel *seems* to help a bit, in that a bit of attention is withdrawn from the tension points in my head, but I don't know if it will solve the problem.

I have worked with muscles as tense as this around my body in multiple places. Some were so hard they seemed like bone. Part of jaw was so hard in inner feeling I was thinking I was feeling bone! Instead it was the jaw muscle... Go figure. :? Most places in my body however are easier to develop an "inner distance" towards. I can regulate my awareness of them more easily and without as strong sensations.

Any suggestions?

Oliver

ButterflyWoman
3rd April 2008, 01:17 PM
I've had some success easing blocks in my neck, jaw, and head by using my energy body's hands to "massage" the areas. Try it with your fingers first to get a pattern and rhythm that feels nice, and then do it energetically. See if it helps.

I have problems with tension in my shoulders, neck, jaw, and head, too, for what it's worth, including significant tension headaches that can last for days (longest I ever had was six weeks). I have some suggestions for material ways to deal with it, but energetically, the only thing so far I've found that does much good is the massage technique.

CFTraveler
3rd April 2008, 02:41 PM
I used to have similar problems when I did certain types of energy work- it seemed trying to focus in a specific part of my body caused my head area (especially my eye/brow area) to tense up. What I did was to change the order of things, and I don't know if this helped or not, but the problem seemed to go away on it's own.
I don't know how helpful this is, though, or how to apply it to your problem specifically. :?

Korpo
3rd April 2008, 02:47 PM
CF, that is an interesting idea.

I'm not sure, but I have the feeling that focussing on the breath flushes my system with energy, circulating it in the "orbit", and that it then hits this "bottleneck". In this way breath awareness works for me like energy raising...

When I just do blockage work without awareness of the breathing process as a whole, or at its key points, but only at the point of blockage, I do not have the same problems. Maybe it is easier then to fine tune the breath to the problem? Don't know. :?

It is just frustrating as these blocks bring multiple problems, especially impeding any kind of breath awareness meditation.

Oliver

Tom
3rd April 2008, 05:00 PM
The first thing that comes to mind is that you should stop doing it while it hurts. You are clearly building up too much energy in your head. You have techniques in chi kung for bringing the excess into the tan tien, which you can use frequently if you must keep doing breath awareness at the current location, but it would be easier just to get it out of your head to begin with. Instead of following the breath at the nostrils, keep it to the movements of the stomach or even switch to "breathing" energy in and out through the feet.

sleeper
3rd April 2008, 05:15 PM
what kinds of breath awareness meditations have you been doing? Would you detail them? They might lend some insight into your head pain.

if you're doing something like Kriya yoga, which is a very powerful technique, then, you know. Strange things happen.

ButterflyWoman
4th April 2008, 05:40 AM
Oh, maybe I misunderstood... Hmm. I get headaches when I put ANY attention at all on my brow chakra. It didn't used to be problem, but the more sensitive to energy I become, the more of an issue it becomes. If I even think about my brow chakra, my sinus cavity feels like it's filled with pressure and my head starts to ache from just behind the middle of the forehead. I have to be super careful with it. I can send energy around the "edges" of the area and that's okay, and I can look out of the "corner" of my third eye, so to speak, but looking directly is really painful (too bright, too big, too MUCH).

When you're doing breath awareness, part of the place the breath goes is right up into your sinuses, certainly. Perhaps you're just putting too much concentration there? Have you tried to keep your attention directed on your lungs and diaphragm instead of the sinus area?

Or am I confused again? :)

Korpo
4th April 2008, 08:51 AM
Hello, all.

Thanks for all the good answers. I guess I'll help out by explaining a few things. :)

As for Yogic breathing: No I do not do any forced methods of breathing. I just try to breathe in and out with awareness.

As for massages: OW, you recommended energy massages, which did not work so well. But you inpired me to get some head massages from my wife and myself, and that helped somewhat. Thank you. :D

As for nostril breathing: I dropped the technique two years ago. It led me to wonderful relaxation and an inner sense of letting go. And then it induced nose bleeds, over and over again. Now I can see that the blocked structures behind my nose, which tie in with certain places in my forehead and jaw blocked the natural energy flow that arises with this kind of awareness. I had indeed always better results with focussing on the abdomen after recognising this, Tom. :)

As for focussing on the diaphragm: I have recently focussed my energy work on my diaphragma, generating a breath that reaches farther into the abdomen and makes my organs move - a massaging effect. Staying on the diaphragm as a focus - that's new. Gotta try it. :)


My problem, in general terms is, that as soon as I become aware of the blocks in my forehead, nose, upper jaw, throat, and sometimes other places in my head, that breathing becomes a painful and very tense process. Same thing when during my meditation I get drawn towards my third eye, or when I spontaneously get drawn towards one of the blocks described.

This morning I partially dissolved more of that "nose complex" of blockages, but it will take as long as it takes. :? I make progress and refine my methods to deal with this, but it is painful and can be very problematic.

These problems have been with me periodically ever since I started more intensive energy work. The blocks in my head have at least come from headaches several days long with cold sweat and a feeling like the head cannot decide whether it will ex- or implode down to an intense feeling of tension that is somehow controllable. Still, when these blockages are stirred, it is hard to get awareness elsewhere or to keep relaxed and work them.

Thank you all,
Oliver

ButterflyWoman
4th April 2008, 09:52 AM
But you inpired me to get some head massages from my wife and myself, and that helped somewhat. Thank you. :D
You're welcome. :)


I make progress and refine my methods to deal with this, but it is painful and can be very problematic.
That's always the way, it seems. Bleah.

Korpo
4th April 2008, 09:57 AM
I make progress and refine my methods to deal with this, but it is painful and can be very problematic.
That's always the way, it seems. Bleah.

As long as I have some feeling of actually making progress, I'm fine with that. ;)

Oliver

ButterflyWoman
4th April 2008, 10:04 AM
As long as I have some feeling of actually making progress, I'm fine with that. ;)
Believe it or not, so am I, especially now that I realise that on some level I actually do choose "fast and painful and let's move on" most of the time. But then we get into discussions about suffering and how it's unnecessary and I start to wonder again... ;)

Korpo
4th April 2008, 10:25 AM
I see. :D

Oliver

Korpo
4th April 2008, 01:36 PM
I don't know - what are people's energetic experiences in meditation? Does it stimulate flow? Does it increase overall flow? Do breathing awareness practices stimulate circulation of energy?

I've been making progress with these blockages - maybe it is time to pay them more attention to resolve them once and for all. Other major blockages have responded well to my practices, in other parts of the body. The last weeks were rather liberating in this regard. Maybe these re-occuring troubles with the head blockages mean that they are now "ripe" and ready to be dissolved.

I found it hard that these work so strongly against relaxation and meditation. I'm disappointed that there are so many meditation teachers and authors out there who seem to ignore the fact that the practice can bring in touch with a lot of pain and tension right from the beginning. While the emotional aspects of meditation are often discussed, it seems many cast a blind eye to the physical/etheric aspects of meditation and energy work.

This is IMO a disservice to many people out there with more severe conditions than my inherent tendency to tense up. I wonder what meditation would be like for them.

Oliver

sleeper
4th April 2008, 03:49 PM
Have you tried doing energy work in areas close and closer in proximity to the areas that are bothering you? as you know, he more intense and practiced you are at energy work, the more that simple breathing will stimulate Kundalini and spinal chord energies (some people say the two are synonymous). In me, those energies tend to rise to the heart then from lower chakras, descend from above from higher ones, and filling the body completely with divine energies. that could stimulate your brow. or, just as likely, you have a blockage that you aren't as aware of, and the energy is forced to bypass through your brow.

For instance, i had a serious problem with my crown chakra for some time, and strange as it may sound, the energy that should have moved through that area came through my ears...and produced some unexplainable sensations. By working out my problems with my crown, I fixed my problems with my ears.


I have problems with tension in my shoulders, neck, jaw, and head, too, for what it's worth, including significant tension headaches that can last for days (longest I ever had was six weeks). I have some suggestions for material ways to deal with it, but energetically, the only thing so far I've found that does much good is the massage technique.
For a long time, I carried lots of tension in my shoulders that caused severe headaches, but recently, finally, i resolved them. Psychics kept telling me to stop carrying so many burdens on my shoulders, the weight of the world, etc. but that's not how I experienced it. I was carrying resentment...which i guess is a burden...but so are many emotional things. After i released the judgement and resentment first in my heart chakra, then in some smaller energy centers in my head but not my crown or third eye chakra, the tension left me. But it was a very emotionally painful process.

Korpo
4th April 2008, 05:33 PM
Have you tried doing energy work in areas close and closer in proximity to the areas that are bothering you?

That's 95% of my energy work. Finding a block, feeling closer to it, be aware of it, dissolve it. You could say I do that multiple hours a day. :)


as you know, he more intense and practiced you are at energy work, the more that simple breathing will stimulate Kundalini and spinal chord energies (some people say the two are synonymous).

I tend to feel they are not the same. Never had any Kundalini phenomena nor am I trying to. I have circulation in the orbit, and cleaned that in many places.


or, just as likely, you have a blockage that you aren't as aware of, and the energy is forced to bypass through your brow.

My brow is blocked, so are its secondary centers - temples, nose, roof of mouth, scalp, behind eyes. I'm rather having problems with the blockages I am aware of. :)

Oliver

Korpo
4th April 2008, 09:27 PM
Weird synchronicity:

The last few days I saw several times "stomping devices" - big machines that drive poles into the ground by repeatedly hitting them with a big weight they drop. Today I saw out of the train window and thought - "Good grief! That was the third one! Third one? What does that mean?". And I immediately thought "Go deeper."

I was sitting here, reading the article asalantu recommended here:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=11636 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=11636)

I got stuck on these two short sentences:


Uncomfortable? Go deeper!

I think this relates to this. To what I described in this thread. Maybe this time the discomfort (that word was mentioned immediately before that) is no longer an obstacle to going deeper. Or getting rid of the blockages helps me go deeper.

I don't know. I'm just it relates to this, as it popped into my mind in this order.

Oliver

Korpo
7th April 2008, 09:25 PM
Today I relistened to a track about breathing in meditation/energy work. It recommends using the natural properties of in and out breath - in increases/revitalises/energises awareness, out lets go/expels.

I was adhering to the instruction - as a blockage came in focus, I just got aware of its contour on in breath, and on the out breath I sank deeper into it and also let go. It seems very natural this way. This helped with exactly one of the major blockages in my scalp that had been such a big problem.

As I was about to finish it, I sank deeper down my body, sinking the energy with it, still focussing on in and out breath in the same way. My breathing got incredibly deep and smooth when I reached the chest. Really loud, too!

The dissolving worked well on the cramped up muscles in my abdomen, too. It's so funny - I relaxed something in my abdomen, and I suddenly got noises from my shoulder unwinding. It never ceases to surprise me. :)

Oliver

seankerr123
8th April 2008, 06:48 AM
Dear Korpo,

I just came across this and your "inner dissolving" thread and just wanted to say I'm very impressed. To my eye, you are supplying precisely the element that is lacking in RB's work (which is still great imo) - the work of purification based on equanimity. Coming from vipassana, I really can't imagine the cathartic process NOT starting with energy work. And yet this side seems pretty neglected in methods that just speak in terms of "drawing in", "stimulating", "circulating", "clearing blockages" etc - as if we were dealing with clogged plumbing! this kind of approach totally overlooks the mental side and the cathartic process.

From a vipassana pov a "blockage" is just as mental as it is physical: it's a knot of psychic tension, a blob of negative mental conditioning. Due to the strength of your practice it'ss been shaken up from deep inside where it's been all along. There's a pali term for these - which maybe you're already familiar with - "sankhara" (sanskrit "sanskara"). Its mental side is most likely apparent in the way your disposition changes when you focus on it: you can't help but hate it, be overwhelmed by it, over react to it - because it IS that reaction. The way to deal with them is by neutralising that reaction, ie not losing your equanimity.

Again, to look at it from the vipassana persp, it's the equanimity that shakes up the past conditioning, and it's the equanimity that eliminates it. As you describe it, you're working with equanimity, so it's no surprise you're getting the results you are. "Dissolving" these things IS the work of meditation - not an impediment to it. To my understanding, no pain or blockage is an impediment : working through them actually constitutes the purificatory process itself. It IS your progress, and in my experience, the deeper you go, the deeper and nastier the things that get shaken up to the surface. That's the whole process.

IME, dwelling on painful blocked areas is actually the least effective way to deal with them though. They'll quickly overpower you and make your mind grosser so it can no longer feel the prevailing subtle flow on the rest of the body. TRYING to remove blockages destroys the equanimity which is your real tool to remove them. Best way to let them dissolve is to keep working systematically through the whole body. In vipassana you keep sweeping head to feet and feet to head - not too different from RB's full body circuit. You pass your awareness through "blocked spots", maintaining your equanimity, and *keep moving*. Once you reconnect with the hands or feet a good deal of tension often gets discharged. With repeated passes, even the nastiest of sankharas gets eliminated.

But progress in this context involves bringing deeper, nastier things up as much as it involves getting rid of them. They have to surface in order to dissolve, so at times it seems like your practice is increasing your pains and at times decreasing them. Both parts constitute progress though :)

I've found over the years that it's the speed of this process that indicates progress. I used to sit for hours with the pains or passions that would come up. Now even very heavy things come up and pass away quite rapidly.

Sankhara actually means "compound" or "formation" - now that i think of it, it's a perfect opposite to the state of "dissolution". Just a matter of allowing them to dissolve into their natural "a-sankhata" state, lit. "un-compounded" - a synonym for nirvana: total dissolution.

Korpo
8th April 2008, 07:57 AM
Hello, seankerr123.

Interesting point of view! :)

I'm still adapting my practice, and when I switched to going back to letting go on the out breath and sinking in, the situation vastly improved and changed. No longer was the blockage overwhelming, but the process got more natural and easier.

I agree with you, if I get stuck on a blockage, the process does not work too well. The recommendation for doing this is: Start at the top of the head, dissolve what you can, move down. It is less of a sweep than you suggest, but getting stuck is actually not such a good idea and not the intended way. I have however very tense points in my body which can become "traps" for awareness.

Focussing continually with relaxed, gentle attention (which is indeed enabled by more and more equanimity) on a blockage has a profound side effect in the long run. Each blockage, when the meditator follows the more subtle energies again and again, has the potential to dissolve to space and even emptiness. This is the most direct connection to emptiness through practice I have found yet in any technique. It is recommended by Bruce to stay in this emptiness as long as it lasts to let it transform you.

Each blockage then can become an entry point into a much deeper experience, because the energies intertwine and lead to ever subtle energies, back into the core of the being where the whole knot dissolves and becomes empty without content, and back to consciousness without content. I admit I had no encounter with this yet, but spacious feelings come and go. Some days I go deep, some days I do not. On rare days I find more space inside than in the room I am sitting in. :shock:

As you correctly noted, as my meditation changes, it drags up new things. Problems come to a boiling point, where they want attention. As the block wants attention, the mind has to adapt. I need to adapt, refine and change my technique in basic and subtle ways again and again, as the things that come up teach me (in the long run) how to deal with them. I deal with a host of body blockages and "lesser" emotions, and in recognising them, I learn over time how to deal with them.

Indeed, equanimity becomes more and more the key factor. Learning how to relate to the objects of my meditation again and again with a gentle, relaxed attitude. At first I though I lost this attitude. Then I realized, that these are stronger pains and blocks. After a certain discouragement I refined my technique again and now it works again. And again many more problems became now "approachable". With each cycle of refinement, the technique again allows another level of inner knot to be cleared up.

Bruce Frantzis wrote that the relaxed mind necessary, the attitude, is similar or the same in Buddhism as in this school of Taoism. Actually his teacher was both - a Buddhist of Tientai school in younger years, recognised enlightened by this school, and a Taoist in later years. In China there is a certain flux possible between these, and even some Buddhists mention "attaining the Tao".

The attitude of the mind he described with two examples - the Taoist example was a stone in water. The stone is the object, the awareness is the water. As the stone moves gently in the currents of the water, the awareness just surrounds the stone. The stone is in water, constantly touched by it, but not under pressure. Water is not tense. Its fluidity is the quality of mind that should represent the relaxed state.

In the Buddhist example he mentioned how the Buddha explained to a musician who tried very hard how the mind has to be for meditation - like a string. If the string is too loose, there is no sound. The string flaps. If the string is too tightly wound, it snaps. To produce the right sound, the right amount of effort is necessary. The Daoists would call this effortless effort - a minimal amount of effort that suffices to do the job well and can be maintained for a long time.


From a vipassana pov a "blockage" is just as mental as it is physical: it's a knot of psychic tension, a blob of negative mental conditioning.

Indeed. In my practice I always "look" for the deeper underlying energy that manifested the more dense problem. As the awareness softens the blockage, subtler energies and causes become available, as they are no longer obscured by the more coarse energies. They intertwine, and the coarse can lead back to the subtle, and dissolving of the subtle can resolve the coarse.


"Dissolving" these things IS the work of meditation - not an impediment to it. To my understanding, no pain or blockage is an impediment : working through them actually constitutes the purificatory process itself. It IS your progress, and in my experience, the deeper you go, the deeper and nastier the things that get shaken up to the surface. That's the whole process.

It indeed is. Periodically I have to remind myself of this, as this has not fully sunken in. Taking a step back from the problem and realising that "this too will go" has not fully replaced the reflex of "Oh woe is me, another problem!". ;) :lol:


TRYING to remove blockages destroys the equanimity which is your real tool to remove them.

In my experience the only way to let go of the grosser distractions is to become aware of them. They make themselves available, they arise, and with the right attitude of mind, which is becoming fully aware of them without falling for their overwhelming qualities, allows them to pass away, too. I can see where you come from here, and I try to evaluate different approaches to this, too, but the only way I found to skillfully deal with them as of now is to turn my attention on them as they arise, then expending minimal effort as not to create more tension, but resolution. As one of the Buddhist meditation manuals I currently read "non-attached, but with care".

Thanks for your excellent input,
Oliver

Korpo
8th April 2008, 09:46 AM
To my eye, you are supplying precisely the element that is lacking in RB's work (which is still great imo) - the work of purification based on equanimity. Coming from vipassana, I really can't imagine the cathartic process NOT starting with energy work. And yet this side seems pretty neglected in methods that just speak in terms of "drawing in", "stimulating", "circulating", "clearing blockages" etc - as if we were dealing with clogged plumbing! this kind of approach totally overlooks the mental side and the cathartic process.

Several thoughts on this:

In the Taoist tradition of circulation practices, which Robert seems to draw on (Chia's book about the Micro-Cosmic Orbit was in his bibliography of MAP), there is a similar sentiment. This tradition works purely with energy it seems. I have the strong feeling about them that they emphasize willpower instead of "letting go". Actually the approach of these Daoists was indeed one of plumbers - flushing channels in a certain order to increase energy and develop certain skills! :)

As for Robert - he seems to switch between both. If you look at his article about "void meditation", you find references to "suppressing" the surface mind/lower self. This ties in with his seemingly forceful approach at quieting the mind - Mind Taming. Or with the use of forceful thought forms when dealing with blockages - using a visualised jackhammer to overcome a blockage. Robert also purposefully triggered his first Kundalini raising with the known effects.

I think this all pertains to traditions defining meditation purely as a matter of concentration, and therefore also of trance, and use the term "mind control". This fits in with more "Indian" approaches of practice as more common in Yoga than let's say in Buddhism (which is of Indian origin as well, but has different concepts).

At the same time there is a lot of softness and gentleness in Robert's approaches, and reading so many of his stuff over time, there is no doubt that Robert's approach to things is not a hard or forced one. Even in the same short article about "void meditation" he mentions "letting go" and "surrender" as key points.

So, while Robert may not always emphasize equanimity in the methods he publishes, I believe he as a person possesses a great deal of it.

Oliver

seankerr123
9th April 2008, 05:43 AM
Korpo,

It's really a pleasure to read your thoughtful responses.

I think these pains and how we deal with them is really at the heart of the whole process. Equanimity, in my experience, is not necessarily so much a "relaxed attitude", as you describe it, gentle, like water, as an active and potent way of directly engaging an object. Honed to maturity, equanimity becomes a blow-torch that forcefully dissolves whatever it's concentrated on. A mind concentrated with equanimity becomes a dentist drill with which you can drill out all the cavities of your mind.

It's not a pleasant process, but it gives real returns. I look back over the evolution of my practice and can see the progression clearly: "tight spots", like you mention, the same burning knots of pain coming up in my back every course (ie vipassana course). As the hideous initial ones little by little got dissolved over these course of the first year or two, similar fiery little knots started cropping up more and more concentrated in the upper back. They snaked about there and consistently dissolved into the heart region for a year or so. As those got exhausted, they started coming up concentrated in the neck area, and after that the face and skull, and finally for about a year or so everything was coming up inside the brain, snaking around deep in there like little fizzling cartoon bomb fuses. As soon as that stock finally got exhausted, Kundalini went up! It was a total surprise, as I was under the impression that the meditation I was practicing had nothing to do with kundalini and everything to do just with purifying the mind of this stock of impurities. But the two things are intimately connected. Clearing this stock of burning mental defilements, "sankharas", is clearing your stock of karma. You're liberating yourself, which is a universal process. The "kundalini experience" is one step in that process.

A Yogi friend in India explains this by distinguishing between "sahaja kundalini" and "kevala kundalini". Kevala kundalini "kundalini in isolation" is the artificially aroused kundalini that is forcefully raised by working like the plumber we were discussing. Sahaja k, "natural kundalini" is the k. that rises spontaneoulsy when the mind is sufficiently purified of its stock of defilements. It's not capricious or unpredictable. There's no need to cross your fingers. You clear the stock, and it goes up automatically. - and without problems. I think my experience bears out the distinction he makes perfectly, as I was in no way working intentionally for this particular development. But in retrospect it makes perfect sense. With the systematic elimination of more and more subtle things, as soon as even the head was emptied out to a certain degree ( :wink: ), "pop" went the weasel.

So figuring how to work with these "pains" is really key to the whole process. And in my experience there's a definite right and a definite wrong way to do it. I was quick to caution you about dwelling prolongedly on such spots because I've gotten myself into trouble by doing that. Using brute force can work when your equanimity is iron strong, but it's natural to lose your equanimity by dwelling on spots of intense pain, and if you dwell on them hating them, just wanting them to go away, then you're reversing the process and compounding your misery. I spent one memorable course working like that - clamping down on the burning knot of pain i so much wanted to get rid of in the center of my back adn trying to dissolve it by brute force - and I ended up making my mind so gross, after a few days I couldn't feel subtle sensations even on my hands or feet. At that point I had to sigh, give up, and start over from the beginning, this time trying to figure out how to work properly.

The trick, as I see it, is to work to *observe* deeper, more objectively - very much like you describe in fact, trying to feel "beneath" and through the pain, down to the underlying subtle sensations.

There a good methodology to this, since things generally dissolve in a systematic manner: In any given "blockage" or "knot of pain", a little subtler than the dull, dense pain, there is an intense sense of pressure, weight, an active pulling heaviness. If you can tune into this pressure aspect of the pain, you are already tuning into a slightly subtler level of the sensation. It will begin to predominate, and the blinding "pain" aspect will start to recede. It becomes slightly more bearable. Forget pain - work observing pressure.

Again, going slightly deeper into the sensation, you will almost certainly find that along with the pressure, there is some heat. In fact this was what you were interpreting as pain - just heat, intense burning heat. If you tune into this level of the sensation completely, you will begin to feel the heat aspect exclusively and the sensations of "pain" and "pressure" will recede.

Again, slightly subtler than heat, there is invariably some pulsation. If you can catch this pulsation and tune into it, your work is already 3/4 done. It will be slow and heavy at first, since it is a very gross spot, but as you tune more fully into it, and concentrate exclusively on that, the sensation of "heat" will recede and the pulsation will become predominant - and begin to speed up.

As you stay calmly fixed on the pulsation as it begins to speed up (not hard at this point, since it is really pretty engrossing), little by little it will increase its speed until it becomes indistinguishable from the other subtle vibrations on your body - by this point, it has in fact "dissolved" right under your gaze.

In my experience, these phases are pretty constant. Pain - pressure - heat - pulsation - vibration: five rungs on the ladder back up to free flow. You've just cleared your "blockage" without force and without stress, by pure equanimous observation.

One perk: no plumber's bill :)

seankerr123
9th April 2008, 06:29 AM
oh my, plumbers vs dentists what have we gotten ourselves into? :lol:

Korpo
9th April 2008, 08:25 AM
Equanimity, in my experience, is not necessarily so much a "relaxed attitude", as you describe it, gentle, like water, as an active and potent way of directly engaging an object

Ah - words! Sweet, unreliable words - obscuring and revealing at the same time! ;)

But I do engage the object. :)

The mind stays relaxed. If the mind not "tenses up" the blockage is not so much of a problem. Panicking over pain is a habit I untrain in every session. Or you could say I train in equanimity. Or you could say I try to achieve a relaxed mind that can look at a problem without inflating it and stay aware of it. Or you can say I focus on trouble spots and work with their energies in rather subtle ways. And all of that would be a less-than-accurate description. :)


A mind concentrated with equanimity becomes a dentist drill with which you can drill out all the cavities of your mind.

I rather not acquire that image into long-term storage... If we focus on the aspect of very fine precision, of going deeper, finer, subtler, where space expands and the mind zooms in and I suddenly work fine structures with the same awareness as formerly the gross, *then* I agree. :lol:


"tight spots", like you mention, the same burning knots of pain coming up in my back every course

I have a very tense body. My body became the dump of my mental habits. Instead of releasing I worked things into it. Now it comes back. Layer by layer. Many spots, everywhere. Forehead, scalp, behind the face, in the neck, in the right should, in the hands and arms, around my lungs and heart, in my abdomen, at the hips, in my thighs, knees, lower back, upper back, feet, ankles, fingers - you name it! But when I pay close attention I notice something - there is a widening layer, from the outside to the inside, in which I cleaned up. A layer that is just clean. I work at deeper layers now. Peeling myself like an onion. :)


finally for about a year or so everything was coming up inside the brain, snaking around deep in there like little fizzling cartoon bomb fuses.


Clearing this stock of burning mental defilements, "sankharas", is clearing your stock of karma.

That is funny - because my wife saw spots in my aura just there. They were of the "worst" aura color. Like patches of negative, stuck habits.


Sahaja k, "natural kundalini" is the k. that rises spontaneoulsy when the mind is sufficiently purified of its stock of defilements. It's not capricious or unpredictable. There's no need to cross your fingers. You clear the stock, and it goes up automatically. - and without problems.

Bardon mentions this: "When the elements are in balance, the serpent power rises on its own." Since Bardon's description of human character/personality/soul refers back to his four/five element theory, this description makes sense. Bardon recommends developing the balance of the elements instead of trying to work towards the serpent power, if I understood correctly. He also left chakras out of his discourse (on purpose). In his approach, the balance of the mental/emotional brings Kundalini. That was a thing about his explanations I liked. Pretty much the only thing. ;)


Using brute force can work when your equanimity is iron strong, but it's natural to lose your equanimity by dwelling on spots of intense pain, and if you dwell on them hating them, just wanting them to go away, then you're reversing the process and compounding your misery.

This is not what I do - however: Been there, done that. Sometimes I lose my equanimity and just wish them away. But most of the time I just try to cultivate an attitude of "this too will pass away". It did before, and my practice continues, grows, expands, makes new things accessible. The frustration and impact of these long-term problems diminishes.

I don't hate them. I don't "stare them down". I try to look for their more subtle qualities, I try to suffuse them. I go where my out breath takes me, and become aware of what my in breath shows me. When I find a clear strong contour, I already know something can be done. When I sink softly into something hard, I know this is already progress. When I find a fluid energy, I stay in it and let it disperse it to space. When I find a clear spot, I enjoy its spacious quality. And I start over again.


In my experience, these phases are pretty constant. Pain - pressure - heat - pulsation - vibration: five rungs on the ladder back up to free flow. You've just cleared your "blockage" without force and without stress, by pure equanimous observation.

My sensations sometimes match, and sometimes not. Not always heat. As I go through the layers of a complex a lot of things can come up. Most of the time I start with a dull pressure. The pressure may soften, get liquid, sometimes hot, then dissipate as I go deeper. Not every layer is like that. Sometimes knots of searing pain or a dull pain interwoven, sometimes not. Especially in long term headache spots, there are pain knots. Sometimes a layer does consist of hot, cold, airy energy. Then I observe this and it dissipates, too. No matter what it is, it leaves space. Sometimes a blockage throbs and pulsates as I my make contact. Sometimes I just falls away. Then a spacious, clear spot. And when I dwell in that spot, something else might arise out of it, deeper stuff.

The more coarse energies, they feel like tension of a muscle, like constriction and hardness. I'd say they are purely physical. Then there are sensations like feeling like choking, feeling like a tummy ache, like hunger, like nausea, agitation, nervousness. I'd say this is the nervous system and the etheric. Sometimes they are hot, cold, airy, and I think here it touches on emotions. I felt mental blocks, I believe. One I felt very directly - it felt abstract like a thought, non-material, and in another way had just the same quality as a clenched muscle. At other time just the spontaneous welling up of habitual thoughts tells me I struck emotion or thought blocks. I keep on exploring this.

As for being stuck with the more coarse due to concentrating on the stuck points - yes and no. If I work a blockage deeper and deeper, I come easily to the energies that interweave into it. Gross and subtle get loose, and I work them. And sometimes I get stuck on the blockage, and it numbs things. When that happens, as my mind becomes aware of it I start refocusing by reapplying my process, for example starting to change the quality of my breath.

Every time I get stuck such as this I know I lost the conscious awareness necessary to maintain this process with ease. Earlier in my practice I replied to this with brute force. Supplanting the subtle skill with willpower, which does not work very well or at all. At worst, it hurts. But now I realise that my mind just started to wander, and I restart the process. I return to the breath, and I reestablish the quality of mind I need. Then, with new-won proper attitude, I continue my work.

The breath becomes the anchor of creating the right mind attitude and maintaining it and finding it again when I wandered. I took me some time to realise that even when I did not "lose" the blockage, or the awareness thereof, that I still lost the proper attitude and finding that again first was indeed the proper solution.


oh my, plumbers vs dentists what have we gotten ourselves into? :lol:

:lol:

Oliver

Korpo
9th April 2008, 09:18 AM
PS -

seankerr123,

I have to add, this is really very interesting. The information about your practice, what you experience - those are "gold nuggets" for me. :D

I like to study Buddhist literature (not the sutras, modern authors) about this, but I am more drawn to the less formal practice I find in the branch of Daoism I have. I like to get inspiration for practice and different angles at problems that I then incorporate into my practice. Very often from Buddhists, primarily from the Vipassana branches. :)

Oliver

Korpo
9th April 2008, 12:24 PM
seankerr123,

I wanted to discuss something specific:

The head pain at my scalp specifically starts also when I want to observe my thoughts. At the same time three things usually happen:

* Thought vanishes.
* Numb and dull pressures throughout the head become apparent and draw attention.
* A somewhat subtle "pre-thought" activity takes place.

So, it is neither no-thought nor thought. The subtle pre-thought makes it like if you compare silence with white noise. It's not music, but it is not silence either.

What I actually observe vanishes as if suppressed. Instead of thoughts going on on their own, speeding up, slowing down, going nowhere or somewhere they suddenly feel like suppressed, especially since it is accompanied by this feeling of pressure in my scalp.

Funnily enough it seems to me as if the inner reaction of my mind is whenever I want to observe thought to look at the third eye from the inside. Or tuning into the third eye. But since the third eye's secondary structures are blocked this brings up this painful numb pressures.

Which reminds me of this:


2. Similarly, if you note mental talk and it immediately disappears, keep your attention at
the internal "loudspeaker," the place where you "hear" your mental thoughts. Between
eruptions of self-talk, that place can only be in one of two states:
a. Pleasant silence
b. Subtle activity
Clearly detect which it is and continue to observe that state. Once again there are only
two possibilities. Either the silence/subtle activity will continue or more clear self-talk
will arise. The silence or the subtle activity is the reality of your verbal mental processing
at that moment. Suffuse it with awareness for as long as it lasts.
It is in the nature of thought to disappear as soon as we observe it. This is a part of its
"break up" sequence. It does not necessarily mean that we are suppressing. Eventually
whatever needs to come up will, but it is also important to be very clear about the
difference between pure mindfulness practice and other forms of practice and to be clear
which you are doing at a given time. In other forms of practice (samatha, metta) we are
trying to direct and control the thoughts. In pure mindfulness, we take a hands-off
attitude, allowing thoughts to last as long (or as short) and to come as frequently (or as
seldom) as they wish. Often when we observe just what is there without wanting the mind
to be any particular way, we discover that thinking is shorter and less frequent than we
had assumed.

The point here is that blankness of the internal screen or silence of the internal voice or
the presence of subtle preconscious processing are just as much aspects of thought as
conscious self-talk and pictures. There is always something to observe at the thinking
gate, so you never need to worry about being distracted "in between."(from: http://www.shinzen.org/shinsub3/artExperAssoc.pdf)

The only difference is that if I focus on my "internal loudspeaker" - which seems to be the third eye - I get exposed to the pains in my head. The pains and tenseness in my head make it hard to focus in that way. Or maybe my mind just "wanders upward" when I listen inside. It's hard to explain, but I hope you know what I mean.

Oliver

seankerr123
9th April 2008, 10:54 PM
Korpo,

Forgive me if this is a very short reply. I'm under pressure with a paper deadline right now. :roll:

First, let me apologise if I come across as if I'm trying to correct you or suggesting you're working improperly - far from it. The impersonal use of the english pronoun "you" is getting me into trouble again I think :)

I totally agree with you about RB likely having great powers of equanimity in deed, if not in word. And from what I gather of your way of working, if I've understood correctly, there is no conflict whatsoever with whatever I'm saying. Going deeper layer by layer, like an onion - that's it exactly. On the contrary I'm flabbergasted you've figured it all out by experimentation - I had to have everything spelled out for me explicitly before I could even hope to approximate an experiential understanding in practice.

Of course, no matter how precise the instructions, it's always a matter of experimentation and progress by trial and error, I think, in order to really figure out how to *do* it. Breath meditation is a perfect case in point, which has such deceptively simple instructions. I still remember the precise evening a couple years ago when after ...4 years? of daily practice something finally clicked and I realised "oh! Well, shucks, I've been doing it wrong all this time!" and that certainly proved to be a life-changing night.

I find meditative progress to be a bit like technological progress: all previous versions become obsolete.

But let me just jump to the part about your scalp.
1. I personally can't relate to the idea of an "internal loudspeaker" that has some fixed point. I have had experiences at times of the mind "converging" in the heart (or sub heart center to be more precise) which has given me the impression that the real locus of mind is there. Which is of course also the standard conception in buddhist thought. But outside of samadhi I personally don't experience thoughts as having any locus of origin other than where our awareness happens to be when it perceives them.

2. It seems to me the nature of the "brow center" itself is enough to account for your experience when you concentrate on it. It's well known that focusing on the brow stills thought and forcibly concentrates the awareness.

However, it is 100% discouraged by vipassana teachers, for exactly the same reasons I think that RB discusses. The typical advice I've heard given when a student comes to a vipassana teacher discussing sensations in the brow is: " ignore them completely. just skip over it." and sometimes a stronger warning - "you will give yourself a headache that will last for years together". very strong advice for a method based on objective observation of the whole physical/mental structure. so personally I've been very wary of this area even at times when it's spontaneously become active. That said, over the past 6 months or so, most of the activity i've been experiencing has been going on right there. But I make sure to let the process proceed at its own pace and have always avoided actively stimulating it. And honestly I don't think this policy has hampered its development in any way.

3. About chakras from the point of view of "dissolution":

The first time kundalini happened, my perception very much conformed to the the standard description of a tangible energy forcing its way up.

BUT, later on with further episodes, I was able to get a more accurate understanding of what was going on, and now it seems perfectly clear. Kundalini is in essence just the same dissolution process taking place at the "core" of the onion. Once all the previous layers become pure, one after the other, the chakras "vomit" up enormous masses of gross defilements, starting at the base and proceeding upwards, and as your blow torch equanimity melts the successive loads away, one cakra becomes still and subtle at a new level of purity and now the next higher one vomits up a hideous load of albeit slightly subtler defilements - and so on, on up to the top. Ie, the whole process is actually one of heightened dissolution, rather than an active mass of magical energy forcing its way up - though that's what it may feel like. The thing is, the loads of defilements that they vomit out are so gross they feel like solid masses. But the solidity is, like all solidity, just an illusion.

So, I think the one suggestion I would make to you is to consider "blockages" as things that are surfacing from deep inside, where they've always been. Poisons finally getting vomited up. Everyone's body is a dump of mental habits. Becoming aware of these, bringing them up and dissolving them is the name of the game. There's an enormous stock. they are called in pali "anusaya kilesas" - "latent defilements" - all stored up in your heart just like all the poison in our livers that start getting released little by little when your health (ie equanimity) is at optimal levels where you can deal with them.

This is why I think "drilling your mental cavities" is a very apt metaphor for the process (other ones I've come up with involve septic tanks and scorpion nests, so at least consider that this is probably the most innocuous of the bunch :D ) Whatever pains and blockages we encounter inside have been there all along, just beneath the threshold of consciousness, and are just lurking down there waiting for life conditions conducive to their expression so they can manifest themselves in life situations that provoke exactly that sensation. Very unpleasant life situations. It's imperative to get rid of these, if we want happiness.

That's the reason for the very strong examples in buddhist parables, such as:

if a man wakes up in the night and finds his house on fire, the room he's in on fire, his bed on fire, his bedsheets on fire, his clothes and his hair on fire -
will he just decide to go back to sleep?
he won't; he'll work to extinguish the flames until not a single one remains - since even from a single ember the whole house can go up in flames again.

Practically speaking, if there's grist for the mill elsewhere in your body, personally I would definitely work there rather than on the brow, knowing that they're all interconnected anyway and making progress with the less severe ones actually constitutes making progress with with the bigger fish as well.

So much for brevity. :oops: Back to work!

Korpo
10th April 2008, 08:53 AM
Forgive me if this is a very short reply.

Upon first scroll - oh so short indeed! ;) :lol:

Thank you. :)


First, let me apologise if I come across as if I'm trying to correct you or suggesting you're working improperly - far from it. The impersonal use of the english pronoun "you" is getting me into trouble again I think :)

But I use it just the same. :D


Going deeper layer by layer, like an onion - that's it exactly. On the contrary I'm flabbergasted you've figured it all out by experimentation - I had to have everything spelled out for me explicitly before I could even hope to approximate an experiential understanding in practice.

You give me way too much credit. I had three kinds of help - an intuition about what to start, a book which leaves space for your own understanding and leaves you clearly aware of the gaps you have to fill in yourself, and meeting the right people to learn from at the right time. So I had tremendous amounts of help!

I longed so often for having it spelled out, and my drive to know it, understand it, apply it with a certain amount of skill drove me to practice every day, read, refine, discuss, learn. Sometimes I was plain stubborn. Sometimes I was obsessed with the wrong thing. Sometimes I did not heed a wise word, and sometimes I let myself be confused. Any kind of teacher would have been welcome, I tell you, but as I continued studying in earnesty I found that though there may be crisis and some dark hour of the soul, very often the slightest circumstance can provide what is needed, and sometimes it pays off to keep on listening.

You, like others before, have provided me with a service - yet another look at my practice, and most valuable of all, a look that is not stuck within only a sectarian world view. Rare enough!


Of course, no matter how precise the instructions, it's always a matter of experimentation and progress by trial and error, I think, in order to really figure out how to *do* it. Breath meditation is a perfect case in point, which has such deceptively simple instructions. I still remember the precise evening a couple years ago when after ...4 years? of daily practice something finally clicked and I realised "oh! Well, shucks, I've been doing it wrong all this time!" and that certainly proved to be a life-changing night.

I find meditative progress to be a bit like technological progress: all previous versions become obsolete.

Yes, these moments are both humbling and precious, aren't they?


But let me just jump to the part about your scalp.
1. I personally can't relate to the idea of an "internal loudspeaker" that has some fixed point. I have had experiences at times of the mind "converging" in the heart (or sub heart center to be more precise) which has given me the impression that the real locus of mind is there. Which is of course also the standard conception in buddhist thought. But outside of samadhi I personally don't experience thoughts as having any locus of origin other than where our awareness happens to be when it perceives them.

I guess you are right. I have had the focus of my mind wander in my body, and never did it impair the chatter from being "right there". Whether my mind was in my belly, my right calf (!), in my throat or in my head, behind my eyes or at the crown.


2. It seems to me the nature of the "brow center" itself is enough to account for your experience when you concentrate on it. It's well known that focusing on the brow stills thought and forcibly concentrates the awareness.

Really? Damn! I wish I'd more often knew such well-known things. :D

I guess that's just my body's response for my mind wanting quiet, because that is when this reaction began. As strangely paradoxical as this sentence is on second inspection...


However, it is 100% discouraged by vipassana teachers, for exactly the same reasons I think that RB discusses. The typical advice I've heard given when a student comes to a vipassana teacher discussing sensations in the brow is: " ignore them completely. just skip over it." and sometimes a stronger warning - "you will give yourself a headache that will last for years together". very strong advice for a method based on objective observation of the whole physical/mental structure. so personally I've been very wary of this area even at times when it's spontaneously become active. That said, over the past 6 months or so, most of the activity i've been experiencing has been going on right there. But I make sure to let the process proceed at its own pace and have always avoided actively stimulating it. And honestly I don't think this policy has hampered its development in any way.

Ah, I see two issues intermixed here.

I don't require my third eye opener than it is. I want to do something about the headaches that crop up there and the tight spots around there. But I see your point, and it is a good one.

I have indeed better results with clearing spots all over the body without too much focus on the scalp, and I think the recommendation to distribute my effort is a good one.


So, I think the one suggestion I would make to you is to consider "blockages" as things that are surfacing from deep inside, where they've always been. Poisons finally getting vomited up. Everyone's body is a dump of mental habits. Becoming aware of these, bringing them up and dissolving them is the name of the game. There's an enormous stock. they are called in pali "anusaya kilesas" - "latent defilements" - all stored up in your heart just like all the poison in our livers that start getting released little by little when your health (ie equanimity) is at optimal levels where you can deal with them.

Ah, yes, I can relate to that. It may be that part of my scalp problem is indeed ripe for doing, but I do not solely focus on it. There's indeed enough other stuff. BTW, the Daoist energy work does not place a restriction on working with the third eye, indeed it starts the energy work at the top and works downward. It does not emphasize chakras over other energy gates very much, and energy gates, while vital, do not "♥♥♥♥♥" other parts of the body when it comes to dissolving them.


Practically speaking, if there's grist for the mill elsewhere in your body, personally I would definitely work there rather than on the brow, knowing that they're all interconnected anyway and making progress with the less severe ones actually constitutes making progress with with the bigger fish as well.

I'd heed that.


So much for brevity. :oops: Back to work!

:lol:

Thank you,
Oliver

Korpo
10th April 2008, 09:03 AM
3. About chakras from the point of view of "dissolution":

The first time kundalini happened, my perception very much conformed to the the standard description of a tangible energy forcing its way up.

BUT, later on with further episodes, I was able to get a more accurate understanding of what was going on, and now it seems perfectly clear. Kundalini is in essence just the same dissolution process taking place at the "core" of the onion. Once all the previous layers become pure, one after the other, the chakras "vomit" up enormous masses of gross defilements, starting at the base and proceeding upwards, and as your blow torch equanimity melts the successive loads away, one cakra becomes still and subtle at a new level of purity and now the next higher one vomits up a hideous load of albeit slightly subtler defilements - and so on, on up to the top. Ie, the whole process is actually one of heightened dissolution, rather than an active mass of magical energy forcing its way up - though that's what it may feel like. The thing is, the loads of defilements that they vomit out are so gross they feel like solid masses. But the solidity is, like all solidity, just an illusion.

So, I think the one suggestion I would make to you is to consider "blockages" as things that are surfacing from deep inside, where they've always been. Poisons finally getting vomited up. Everyone's body is a dump of mental habits. Becoming aware of these, bringing them up and dissolving them is the name of the game. There's an enormous stock. they are called in pali "anusaya kilesas" - "latent defilements" - all stored up in your heart just like all the poison in our livers that start getting released little by little when your health (ie equanimity) is at optimal levels where you can deal with them.

Though I do not understand them fully, I have the distinct feeling that these are the wisest words about Kundalini I have read yet.

I can see how this process can be destabilising to the non-equanimous mind and how the premature Kundalini rising can be dangerous or at least a mixed blessing.

What I do not understand - what layers are we talking about? The layers of a blockage? The layers of your whole being? I have lost the reference point here.

On a side note:

In the instructions I have for the dissolving process there is this picture of layers of a blockage, leading deeper inside. When the core of the being is finally touched, all layers "penetrated", the whole blockage falls away at once, leading to a "holographic ripple" in the body that makes all blockages fall away that tie in to this as well. All stuck points woven holographically into your being that connect together to form this distributed whole "block" drop away. In this sense the blockage is both the entry point to the problem complex and the problem complex itself.

Oliver

Korpo
10th April 2008, 07:50 PM
Regarding head blockages...

I had always problems with tensing up or "overdosing" awareness in a problem I was already aware of and wanted to handle carefully. But I found a way today, and it works like a charm...

Breathing in energises, breathing out releases. The same is true when you focus on a spot and brief and are aware of the breath as it happens - then this effect strongly focuses on that spot - be it energising or releasing. So breathing into a problematic blockage I'm already aware of can induce a feeling of tension, or put too much awareness into it to be comfortable.

Today I found a strategy to finetune this. Upon breathing in I focus somewhere in my body where it is unproblematic - the abdomen or the diaphragm. As the breath changes to breathing out, I refocus on the blockage, and it infuses it with a wave of release *without* changing the amount of awareness or tensing up the spot. I still breathe into blockages I'm barely aware of to get a good feeling of them, but the ones that already are really apparent, I handle now in this way.

I did this this evening, and it worked like a charm, it makes for a good fine-tuning for the dissolving. After a while it dropped me into a state where I can keep this up while walking down the street, and then it dropped into a feeling of like I don't really have a worry in the world - very neutral and aware, not in any way euphoric, but in a quiet way pleasant. I got rid of so many stuff, it exhausted me - in a good way. The sleepiness of a job well done. :D

Oliver

seankerr123
12th April 2008, 11:00 PM
Korpo,

Sorry for the delay. I've been caught up in work.

One thing that occurred to me: sometimes you mention "scalp" and sometimes "brow". In my experience though these areas seem very separate. The top of the head (crown area) can be worked on as much as you want, without nasty side effects. In fact clearing this area seems somehow very key to the whole process. I know all vibrational input I get from outside comes through the top of the head. It almost seems like this area functions as the "pupil" of the mind (the 6th sense organ in pan-indian conception), that allows it to perceive "dhammas" - mental sense objects. So the top of the head can and should be cleaned up as much as possible I think. Despite any strong nausea/discomfort that it may bring up. In my experience these are harmless.

But like you say, blockages, and especially those rooted in chakras, put out tentacles throughout the body. If it's brow-blockage-tentacles reaching into your scalp, that's another story.


On a side note:

In the instructions I have for the dissolving process there is this picture of layers of a blockage, leading deeper inside. When the core of the being is finally touched, all layers "penetrated", the whole blockage falls away at once, leading to a "holographic ripple" in the body that makes all blockages fall away that tie in to this as well. All stuck points woven holographically into your being that connect together to form this distributed whole "block" drop away. In this sense the blockage is both the entry point to the problem complex and the problem complex itself.

I think this is a fantastic image. But rather than sitting on a blockage and trying to penetrate to the core of it, I find it much more productive to start with an outlying "tentacle" and work inward from there. These tentacles reach out from the core all the way to the surface of the body, so the straightest path into the core is by catching hold of the far end of a tentacle and following it in. Like you say - "feeling for a contour", but even further out this works too. The farther away, the easier it is to work with. It will often dissolve easily and like a fizzling cartoon bomb fuse you can follow it into the heart of a problem as it dissolves and then *boom* - a few firework and problem solved :D


What I do not understand - what layers are we talking about? The layers of a blockage? The layers of your whole being? I have lost the reference point here.

Sorry, I can't resist a good metaphor :lol: I just loved the onion image you used. I thought I was using it in the same way - the whole body is the onion - you clean it up layer by layer, starting from the skin and going inward. The movement from outside to inside is parallel to the movement from bottom to top. Maybe this is its "holographic" nature. In any case, the spine is at the center of the onion. Once the previous layers are all clear, the same dissolution process begins there automatically ie "kundalini" (or "bhanga" in buddhist terminology - "bhanga" means: dissolution). Working like this, there's certainly no need to concentrate on the base of the spine to try to forcefully induce the process. I'd certainly never ever recommend anything like that. The most hideous stuff in your mind is down there. Why stir it up? Better to let it happen naturally.

A biographical note:
In 2002 I signed up for my first 10 day Vipassana course, and about 2 months before attending it I discovered RB's NEW tutorial on the web. Going through it blew my mind. I couldn't even penetrate into my body, but just working on the hands and up the arms and on the feet and up the legs, I knew that working like this through the entire body was indeed the work that had to be done. So you could say the work began then. Arriving at the Vipassana course, I was shocked on day 4 to discover that that was exactly the work that is done in these courses.

I think anyone who starts with NEW should go to a 10 day Vipassana course. It's the same work, and with 10 days of just this, you can do it really thoroughly - first on the surface and then going deeper, inside too. Working exactly according to the instructions, it's not uncommon to reach "bhanga" the first or second course (and someone who's already started with NEW I would think is almost assured of it).

The first three days of a ten day course are spent observing breath at the entrance of the nostrils. With three days of this - which is usually quite a maddening roller-coaster ride in itself - the mind gets sufficiently calmed and concentrated enough to feel vibrations wherever you place your awareness - ie, RB's "tactile imaging" motions - stirring, brushing, etc - become unnecessary. The mind is sharp enough that it can just feel them. So, on the fourth day you take your concentrated point of awareness away from your nostrils and start moving it from head to foot, exploring, dissolving, observing - so starts the process.

Working like this with uninterrupted continuity, it's not long till the first bhanga experience, which in turn shakes up a whole new level of even deeper defilements, and you really have your work cut out for you to continue with the process.

In my case 4 years went by between the first and second bhanga or "kundalini" experiences, steadily working in the same way the whole time. Maybe this corresponds to the distinction made in terms of kundalini of "waking" vs "raising", I don't know. In the interim I thought the first experience was a fluke and actually unconnected with, or at least tangential to, the real work of purification, which kept going. But after 4 years I got a surprise when the k. process started up again spontaneously, and this time in full force: without even knowing, I'd been working steadily towards it the whole time!

Which is what brought me back here to have another look at RB and these forums. It really all is the same process, I think, one that can be very aptly referred to as a process of "dissolution", at successively more refined levels. (NB the proper sanskrit term for "kundalini yoga" is "laya yoga" - "laya" means "dissolution".)

If this isn't always apparent, it's only because everyone really *does* need to re-invent the wheel for himself. Your conception of what you are actually inventing may vary along the way, but at the end you will have created the genuine thing all by yourself out of your own experience.

Real wheels can't be borrowed or bought - they have to be invented :idea: :D

Korpo
13th April 2008, 11:17 AM
One thing that occurred to me: sometimes you mention "scalp" and sometimes "brow". In my experience though these areas seem very separate. The top of the head (crown area) can be worked on as much as you want, without nasty side effects. In fact clearing this area seems somehow very key to the whole process. I know all vibrational input I get from outside comes through the top of the head. It almost seems like this area functions as the "pupil" of the mind (the 6th sense organ in pan-indian conception), that allows it to perceive "dhammas" - mental sense objects. So the top of the head can and should be cleaned up as much as possible I think. Despite any strong nausea/discomfort that it may bring up. In my experience these are harmless.

The whole process started with problems in the scalp for me.


But like you say, blockages, and especially those rooted in chakras, put out tentacles throughout the body. If it's brow-blockage-tentacles reaching into your scalp, that's another story.

I think it's both. My third eye sight is slowly coming online. It's not that problematic. As long as I vary my techniques (or the newest variant thereof) it is not actually that much of problem anymore.


I think this is a fantastic image. But rather than sitting on a blockage and trying to penetrate to the core of it, I find it much more productive to start with an outlying "tentacle" and work inward from there. These tentacles reach out from the core all the way to the surface of the body, so the straightest path into the core is by catching hold of the far end of a tentacle and following it in. Like you say - "feeling for a contour", but even further out this works too. The farther away, the easier it is to work with. It will often dissolve easily and like a fizzling cartoon bomb fuse you can follow it into the heart of a problem as it dissolves and then *boom* - a few firework and problem solved :D

So many blocks, I actually think I am doing this - don't know. I'm following "blockages along". I go where it takes me to actually resolve the block. This can be in the same spot, or this can shift to another place. I'm not sure this is what you mean.



What I do not understand - what layers are we talking about? The layers of a blockage? The layers of your whole being? I have lost the reference point here.

Sorry, I can't resist a good metaphor :lol: I just loved the onion image you used. I thought I was using it in the same way - the whole body is the onion - you clean it up layer by layer, starting from the skin and going inward. The movement from outside to inside is parallel to the movement from bottom to top. Maybe this is its "holographic" nature. In any case, the spine is at the center of the onion. Once the previous layers are all clear, the same dissolution process begins there automatically ie "kundalini" (or "bhanga" in buddhist terminology - "bhanga" means: dissolution). Working like this, there's certainly no need to concentrate on the base of the spine to try to forcefully induce the process. I'd certainly never ever recommend anything like that. The most hideous stuff in your mind is down there. Why stir it up? Better to let it happen naturally.

I have never felt compelled to emphasize a spot more over others when following my practice naturally. I just go to the spots that "want attention" as they arise.


The first three days of a ten day course are spent observing breath at the entrance of the nostrils. With three days of this - which is usually quite a maddening roller-coaster ride in itself - the mind gets sufficiently calmed and concentrated enough to feel vibrations wherever you place your awareness - ie, RB's "tactile imaging" motions - stirring, brushing, etc - become unnecessary. The mind is sharp enough that it can just feel them. So, on the fourth day you take your concentrated point of awareness away from your nostrils and start moving it from head to foot, exploring, dissolving, observing - so starts the process.

After I got beyond a certain point of applying technique I never lost this awareness again. I think trying to concentrate on a primary meditation focus does this to you "after some time". There were actually times I wished I could ignore this. But now I'm glad. The equanimity has to grow, and then it is just fine.


Working like this with uninterrupted continuity, it's not long till the first bhanga experience, which in turn shakes up a whole new level of even deeper defilements, and you really have your work cut out for you to continue with the process.

In my case 4 years went by between the first and second bhanga or "kundalini" experiences, steadily working in the same way the whole time. Maybe this corresponds to the distinction made in terms of kundalini of "waking" vs "raising", I don't know. In the interim I thought the first experience was a fluke and actually unconnected with, or at least tangential to, the real work of purification, which kept going. But after 4 years I got a surprise when the k. process started up again spontaneously, and this time in full force: without even knowing, I'd been working steadily towards it the whole time!

I know those moments when everything seems clear and the next day it seems like there is even more work to be done. That was quite frustrating until one day I realised I was really working a deeper layer and it was different stuff I was working on. In between I get shivers and spontaneous events, but nothing as strong as you report. It is very interesting to hear that. :)


Which is what brought me back here to have another look at RB and these forums. It really all is the same process, I think, one that can be very aptly referred to as a process of "dissolution", at successively more refined levels. (NB the proper sanskrit term for "kundalini yoga" is "laya yoga" - "laya" means "dissolution".)

However, equanimity is the key ingredient in dealing with what is stirred, and also for finding the subtle stuff. I think enough people stumble over this dissolution aspect from time to time without knowing, and the ups and downs make no sense then ("I thought I was doing fine").


If this isn't always apparent, it's only because everyone really *does* need to re-invent the wheel for himself. Your conception of what you are actually inventing may vary along the way, but at the end you will have created the genuine thing all by yourself out of your own experience.

Real wheels can't be borrowed or bought - they have to be invented :idea: :D

That's a good picture. :D

Oliver

Korpo
13th April 2008, 01:57 PM
Hello, seankerr123.

I want to discuss an earlier posting of yours.


IME, dwelling on painful blocked areas is actually the least effective way to deal with them though. They'll quickly overpower you and make your mind grosser so it can no longer feel the prevailing subtle flow on the rest of the body. TRYING to remove blockages destroys the equanimity which is your real tool to remove them. Best way to let them dissolve is to keep working systematically through the whole body. In vipassana you keep sweeping head to feet and feet to head - not too different from RB's full body circuit. You pass your awareness through "blocked spots", maintaining your equanimity, and *keep moving*. Once you reconnect with the hands or feet a good deal of tension often gets discharged. With repeated passes, even the nastiest of sankharas gets eliminated.

How fast do you sweep?

I applied this while lying down. I softly kept going up and down my body, releasing soft and warm energies (I was very relaxed) wherever I could find them. It was very interesting. I'm amazed I never read of the technique you described above, though, even though you say this is standard Vipassana procedure?


But progress in this context involves bringing deeper, nastier things up as much as it involves getting rid of them. They have to surface in order to dissolve, so at times it seems like your practice is increasing your pains and at times decreasing them. Both parts constitute progress though :)

I've found over the years that it's the speed of this process that indicates progress. I used to sit for hours with the pains or passions that would come up. Now even very heavy things come up and pass away quite rapidly.

You described to me the phases of dissolving a blockage - how do you perceive them when you don't focus on a blockage? Do you feel them in relation to the rest of you - "dissolution into the rest" - or is it still a distinct feeling of focussed awareness on the specific spot?

Be well,
Oliver

seankerr123
14th April 2008, 12:11 AM
How fast do you sweep?


Sorry, rereading what I'd written, it's actually pretty misleading. Vipassana does use a "sweeping" technique, but this is only: at times when everything is dissolved inside; through parts of the body where everything is dissolved; or when some stuff is coming up (ie blockage like areas) but you can still feel an undercurrent of subtle vibrations flowing underneath it. At all other times, you're told to work "part by part", working on blocked or blind areas for a minute or two before moving on.

It's not a cut and clear graduation from part by part to free-flow, since the free flow will start bringing up deeper things (and the mind is also getting subtler so that it can penetrate to deeper layers) - so you work part by part or with free flow according to the kind of situation you encounter, which keeps changing.

I think lots of techniques get taught in the name of Vipassana. This is the "Goenka standard" :)

The actual "insight" element, which makes it dental work and not just plumbing, is regarding "vibration" as a sign of impermanence. Ie, rather than speak in terms of "energy", vibration is thought of as perceiving the swift arising and passing away of matter. The first stage of insight knowledge is experiencing udaya-vaya "arising and passing away", ie perception of matter's inherent vibration (RB would say "feeling energy"). The second stage is "bhanga" (RB: kundalini), in which the "passing away" becomes predominant. 7 or 8 more "milestones" follow.

So the vibration is viewed as inherent in all matter - your whole body IS vibrating, that table is vibrating - and it's only a matter of making your mind subtle enough to perceive it. So in this context things like "raising energy" and "stimulating the energy body" really don't even make sense. Rather you're "seeing through" the solidity.

It was tough to sort this out initially, coming from NEW.

So from perception of vibration you get perception of impermanence and from that you get equanimity, and from that you get the dissolution process - and there's your "Insight" in action.


You described to me the phases of dissolving a blockage - how do you perceive them when you don't focus on a blockage? Do you feel them in relation to the rest of you - "dissolution into the rest" - or is it still a distinct feeling of focussed awareness on the specific spot?

Again, sorry - you do. You pause at blocked spots along the way for a minute or two. If there are no blocked spots you sweep till something comes up.

Aggressive muck-stirring, you might say :D

Korpo
14th April 2008, 07:34 AM
Ah, okay. :D

That's what I tried for a few sessions. It was quite interesting.

What I did was this: I went down from top, spending a little time at each block, entering, dissolving, trying to feel sensations as they arise. If things get bogged down, I move on. When I reached the fingertips or toes a rush of that loose energy "dumped", rushed out and left me.

I can see how this prevents getting caught in blockages, as every time I seem to get caught in something I start directing my breath to move on. The breath also seems to stay more subtle, though it is a bit early to say that. ;)

In general - I like it. It ties in very nicely with the variations in the breath I tried out lately.

Thank you,
Oliver

PS - Is there reading material related to this available?

Korpo
14th April 2008, 08:11 AM
PS -

The technique is IMO identical to "Outer Dissolving" except that Bruce Frantzis recommends only doing downward sweeps: Start at top, dissolve down your body, end below feet, repeat. He considers this as a safety measure to avoid problems with bringing energy up / rising energy. He recommends building a strong downward current and a healthy nervous system first before doing the upward current.

Interestingly he recommends to do this technique standing. This not only opens most of the body's tissues, it also provides a steady source of sensations as gravity works the body stronger. It avoids dozing off and builds health faster for prolonged sitting later. It also eases dropping energy. A neutral standing posture, called Wu Ji (empty) stance, is preferred, but a master can assign a different stance to help development of the student.

Oliver

seankerr123
15th April 2008, 04:44 AM
When I reached the fingertips or toes a rush of that loose energy "dumped", rushed out and left me.

My experience also.


PS - Is there reading material related to this available?

As far as instructions, these are only available in audio format during the 10 day courses, due to the view that it's not a process you'd want to initiate outside of a safe, "insulated" environment. Which is actually quite prudent. I know I spent half the night wandering the compound in tears the day I learned Vipassana, and cried every time I sat to meditate the following day!

As for overview and discussion, there's a very nice book called "Art of Living" by William Hart. Also a collection of essays from a more psychological pov by a psychologist named Paul Fleischman, called "Karma and Chaos". Hmm and other than that, several publications that as far as I know are only available at Vipassana Centers, or maybe at pariyatti.com.


The technique is IMO identical to "Outer Dissolving"

But, Korpo, wouldn't this imply that it becomes just plumbing again? So much emotional content comes up. The idea is just to stay firmly rooted in the sensation aspect of whatever comes up because if you focus on the mental side of the coin it will sweep you away. Every emotion that comes up in the mind comes up with some sensation on the body. By sticking resolutely to the sensation you can dissolve countless emotional complexes, till it becomes clear that what we call observing body is actually nothing but observing mind. Sensation is at the juncture of the two. It's not strictly physical (since it's a perception), but it's not strictly mental, either. In fact it's the point of contact between mind and matter. But to effect the "dissolution" of the mental material, you have to stay firmly rooted in its physical counterpart. That's my understanding of it, at least.


He recommends building a strong downward current and a healthy nervous system first before doing the upward current.

It's true, I know in courses if students are getting themselves into more than they can handle, they sometimes recommend sticking with only the downward direction. So there must be something to it.


Interestingly he recommends to do this technique standing.

Interesting! I'm going to try this, but at first glance, I would think it wouldn't allow the relaxation process to deepen enough so you can work at a really deep level. Wouldn't you just fall over?
On the other hand, it'd be a great way to learn to integrate deeper meditative states into waking, walking life.

Take care,
Sean

Korpo
15th April 2008, 09:17 AM
The technique is IMO identical to "Outer Dissolving"

But, Korpo, wouldn't this imply that it becomes just plumbing again? So much emotional content comes up. The idea is just to stay firmly rooted in the sensation aspect of whatever comes up because if you focus on the mental side of the coin it will sweep you away. Every emotion that comes up in the mind comes up with some sensation on the body. By sticking resolutely to the sensation you can dissolve countless emotional complexes, till it becomes clear that what we call observing body is actually nothing but observing mind. Sensation is at the juncture of the two. It's not strictly physical (since it's a perception), but it's not strictly mental, either. In fact it's the point of contact between mind and matter. But to effect the "dissolution" of the mental material, you have to stay firmly rooted in its physical counterpart. That's my understanding of it, at least.

Ah, there is another misunderstanding - sensations in the body lead into the energy. Sensations arise where the body is blocked, as the normal free flow of energy is almost sensationless and subtle. So the blockage is the sensation, and from the sensation and the blockage and the mental reaction to it thoughts arise.

It's a block. It is felt by an inner sense. The emotions and sensations of all kinds tie into one another at different levels of vibration and subtlety. I get nervous and I feel a lump in my stomach. That's rather physical. But if I dissolve into that area I also find the more general nausea, which is more etheric. It is already a pure sensation compared to something physical. Beyond that I find emotional reactions - by tracing it back from the physical root into the more subtle, step by step. As they intertwine, I cycle through different sensations, each related to another, at various subtleties, as I untie those knots until there is only space.

Surely that is not plumbing, but dentistry! :lol:



Interestingly he recommends to do this technique standing.

Interesting! I'm going to try this, but at first glance, I would think it wouldn't allow the relaxation process to deepen enough so you can work at a really deep level. Wouldn't you just fall over?
On the other hand, it'd be a great way to learn to integrate deeper meditative states into waking, walking life.

The deeper meditation is usually done sitting. But the standing allows to gather more experience with sensations. Expending the minimal, effortless effort for standing that happens at very fine relaxation saves you from falling asleep. Only if the body falls asleep this minimal conscious effort gets taken away. It lives at the border between wake and sleep and can save you from becoming too relaxed to stay aware.

Oliver

Korpo
15th April 2008, 10:46 AM
As far as instructions, these are only available in audio format during the 10 day courses, due to the view that it's not a process you'd want to initiate outside of a safe, "insulated" environment. Which is actually quite prudent. I know I spent half the night wandering the compound in tears the day I learned Vipassana, and cried every time I sat to meditate the following day!

I have a different view on this - this is precisely what I *expect* to happen in an insulated environment with days of meditation on end in someone who isn't familiar with it. It sounds more like a shock reaction, the person overwhelmed by what comes up at once. I don't see that as a bonus point for a practice - you actually, without knowing - pushed your way through to a very powerful state of perception and then had to deal with the outcome.

In Daoist meditation, you would not sit that much in a day or a week as a beginner. You would unravel the coarse things until the coarse things are understood. You then become more subtle. At no time more than one can handle comes up, no emotional outbreaks, no crying, cathartic experiences. It seems plain and ordinary precisely because I never ever (if you do it right and don't overdo it - which is a prime instruction) go beyond capacity.

This in fact postpones the emotional work quite a bit, but it naturally arose in my practice and got part of it. No rushes, no floods, just things that drop and fall away.

Let me explain why I think it is this way:

I had done the dissolving process for half a year. I entered a period when suddenly mood swings would happen after energy work. I had bouts of hilarity, sad, angry, disassociated moods, etc. These phenomena arised for a short time after a session. It took me a while to notice it was happening. Then I made the link that they are indeed related to practice, then I realised I had to ground better. I finally realised that I started to directly work emotional energies. However, the phenomena were quite limited, I could see their unfolding, could analyse, correct and expand my practice and continue as before, only on a wider range of energetical phenomena. I am working "bottom up" in this, and as of then I started to venture between the emotional, etheric and physical layers, back and forth. I skip across this spectrum with this new-found skill and dissolve what I encounter, just as I did before with only the physical and etheric. My capacity rose mostly in a linear progess, and the "quantum leap" between these phenomena was rather small and handleable, and happening softly and without much fanfare on its own.

Now, *if* I had gone and sat for pro-longed times and just had gone beyond what my initial capacity is in a several-day intensive I would have pushed beyond my current capacity, and then would have been flooded. These emotional outbreaks would have been much worse - in my case I had disassociation in mild forms - I would feel uncomfortable and slightly unreal when I looked at myself in the mirror. I would have a bout of hilarity that would be a bit out of my norm, but would subside. I would be suddenly sad or angry. Now multiply these phenomena tenfold or more as the nervous system is flooded with a much bigger deal of them and you have bouts of crying, extreme disassociation, anger bouts, depressive episodes, etc. I could not have handled these at all, I know that.

Imagine such a big shock driving you into the next level, where you can just weather the storm. These cathartic "bring it on" experiences are IMO the premature Kundalini raisings, and are not sought in this Daoist practice. Kundalini pour-outs are cathartic events, IMO. I think if it happens dramatically, it is the removal of a natural safety catch to let it all blow out.

In my case, equanimity slowly grew over time, and so did practice time, understanding in the underlying phenomena, what I feel, what I perceive, what I can handle, what I can let go of. At times where I went beyond this my system started to go into mood swings and other undesirable phenomena, and all I can do is adapt my techniques, understand more, learn to discern more subtle phenomena, learn to work the blockage more skillfully, learn anew the point I can go to without losing the soft touch of equanimity. I learned to re-focus the sense touch, re-focus the breath, and most slowly of all, I learn when to go on and when to finally stop.

Right as I sit here writing this, I finished a session in which I shed stuff all over my body. There is a point at which I have clearly felt exhausted. This is my mental capacity to dissolve. This is the place to stop. I could have forced myself to go on, but it is the same feeling you ignore, the same quality you push away when you overeat. It is an internal boundary that demarks the limit where effort leads to strain. All that I would do now would carry a bigger and bigger price tag in terms of unbalancing, overstraining and mental fatigue. I can sense this limit, and I cannot see how I could handle a multi-day course where I meditated after this happened.

Be well,
Oliver

Korpo
17th April 2008, 08:02 AM
Just wanted to report that I succeeded in dealing with a good deal of the big bad blocks that caused the problem. Scalp, forehead, face, sinuses, temples, back of head, neck - it worked quite well. I readjusted my technique for dissolving, refocussed, experimented with different applications of the breath, took in seankerr123's suggestions, improved the grounding component, and generally re-read and re-listened to my meditation instructions until I fine-tuned my practice into something that worked for it. I guess the time was ripe for it.

Oliver