Manifest destiny

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And how do you tell the difference?

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One example is an obvious one: If someone tells you gravity is a lie and you should jump off a building to see it- I don't know anyone who would simply suspend disbelief long enough to jump- consensus makes it very hard to 'know' it's not true, and even if you decided it might be possible you probably wouldn't do it.

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The main reason, in fact the ONLY reason people have trouble "changing their beliefs" is that this seems, inherently, as a futile attempt at self-deception.

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Not so. There are many people that have beliefs that are easy to refute, and simple logical thinking can remove these beliefs- beliefs for example, that tell them that money or sex is inherently evil comes to mind, for example. Yet they go through their lives believing that they 'shouldn't' wish for more money, or feeling guilty about it. It doesn't take self-deception to change these beliefs, just a little investigation as to the thought behind these beliefs is enough to get the ball rolling, provided their indoctrination isn't so deep they're simply refuse to believe otherwise.

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

One example is an obvious one: If someone tells you gravity is a lie and you should jump off a building to see it- I don't know anyone who would simply suspend disbelief long enough to jump- consensus makes it very hard to 'know' it's not true, and even if you decided it might be possible you probably wouldn't do it.

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Only because you still don't believe the falsity of gravity (your freedom from it) to be true. The cost of deluding yourself in this matter is too high so you don't have the motivation to test it. If you are wrong about gravity being real you lose the opportunity to fly. If you are wrong about gravity being false you die.

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Not so. There are many people that have beliefs that are easy to refute, and simple logical thinking can remove these beliefs- beliefs for example, that tell them that money or sex is inherently evil comes to mind, for example. Yet they go through their lives believing that they 'shouldn't' wish for more money, or feeling guilty about it. It doesn't take self-deception to change these beliefs, just a little investigation as to the thought behind these beliefs is enough to get the ball rolling, provided their indoctrination isn't so deep they're simply refuse to believe otherwise.

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That's a value judgement, not a belief. A belief is a concept or model of reality, a predictive pattern that sets up an expectation. Stating this as a belief would go more along the lines of "To get money I have to do things that makes others dislike and disapprove of me" or "If other people know I place high importance on money and sex, they will dislike and disapprove of me". These statements are, within certain contexts, true. Or maybe "inherently evil" is just a way of saying the person expects they inherently cause negative experiences.

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collapsing them is simple really. believe it has already collapsed in a certain way. see it in you mind as current or past before it happens and will it into manifestation

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In other words, change your model of reality into one that creates the expectation of experiencing what you are trying to manifest. But how can you possibly do this consciously? The experience I have had is that the very fact you know you are doing it invalidates your faith in the new model. The loophole is to simply navigate through your model, like for example, you believe to lose fat you must cut calories, so you cut calories to create the expectation of losing fat. But what if you doubt that your visualization can collapse into an actual life experience?

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Originally Posted by lycan

In other words, change your model of reality into one that creates the expectation of experiencing what you are trying to manifest. But how can you possibly do this consciously? The experience I have had is that the very fact you know you are doing it invalidates your faith in the new model. The loophole is to simply navigate through your model, like for example, you believe to lose fat you must cut calories, so you cut calories to create the expectation of losing fat. But what if you doubt that your visualization can collapse into an actual life experience?

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depends on how much doubt, but if you doubt it completely than your attempt is already doomed to failure. as with anything we believe, be it core values, reality, or anything else we believe to be true and sound, how did we come to believe these things? nothing more than reinforcement. i.e. "Sometimes money has caused bad experiences for me and my family so money is evil" its been reinforced often enough that to you it would be true, but its not a constant reinforcement so its much easier to defeat than say "I've jumped a million times, and every time i fell back to the ground so gravity is real" now that, that will be next to impossible, but not impossible to defeat becuase it has been constantly reinforced. as far as i know no one has gotten around it yet, and the only way to get around it and fly in my mind, isn't by believing gravity isn't real but rather, through telekinesis which to me is much more believeable than gravity not being real.

now, you might be thinking "well thats not exactly manifesting anything" and well, it isn't exactly. but as i understand it, manifesting is more about creating the opportunity for something to manifest that the actual manifesting itself. and the bigger the manifestation, the more thought has to be put into it, and the longer(usually) it will take to become reality. Manifest destiny, create your own opportunity, same thing basicly. the more time and thought put into something the more likely it is to be.

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Originally Posted by lycan

And how do you tell the difference? How do you tell the difference between trying to believe something that is impossible (futile self-deception) and trying to believe something that is possible? Especially since a negative belief that is "probably not true" might be true after all?

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Nothing is impossible.

Lycan, to avoid this thread continuing it's circular route, I'm going to ask you a question and I'd like for you to answer it honestly.
Did you come in to this subforum to ask for help or gather information, or to argue or disprove the validity of the concept of manifestation itself?

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

Lycan, to avoid this thread continuing it's circular route, I'm going to ask you a question and I'd like for you to answer it honestly.
Did you come in to this subforum to ask for help or gather information, or to argue or disprove the validity of the concept of manifestation itself?

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I came to ask for help and gather information. The key problem I have (I think) is not being able to surrender to the idea of manifestation, being afraid that it will harm me in the exact same sense as your gravity example so I descend into "I have to do something... what can I do? I don't know what to do. I can't figure out how to move forward! I'm stuck! I'm wasting my life... I have to do something... I don't have the resources to follow through on this plan... I can't see a path that I can actually implement from where I am now...". This is because I have not been able to develop complete faith that "the process of manifestation" is "enough", that it is not just magical meaning people assign to coincidences. I want to prove it to myself, not disprove it.

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Originally Posted by DatBillionaire

Nothing is impossible.

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I'm doing my best to implement Neville Goddard's advice. His recommendation is to induce a state of vision (in essence, lucid dreaming) in which you have an experience which implies your desire has been fulfilled. And then to persist doing this until it is manifested into your life. He claimed this to be his most effective technique. His books are much better written than recent LoA works. Power of Awareness and Out of This World are excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtRGk...gUXlFX-EHdtbuz

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Originally Posted by lycan

I came to ask for help and gather information. The key problem I have (I think) is not being able to surrender to the idea of manifestation, being afraid that it will harm me in the exact same sense as your gravity example so I descend into "I have to do something... what can I do? I don't know what to do. I can't figure out how to move forward! I'm stuck! I'm wasting my life... I have to do something... I don't have the resources to follow through on this plan... I can't see a path that I can actually implement from where I am now...". This is because I have not been able to develop complete faith that "the process of manifestation" is "enough", that it is not just magical meaning people assign to coincidences. I want to prove it to myself, not disprove it.

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Lycan, something manifestation that so far has been consistently true for myself. Its not easy advice to follow, but its true none the less. Always take a positive tone in trying to manifest. A simple example: money. say you have up to your ears in debt, theres two ways to do it, and one will lead out of debt, and the other, likely further in. first one "I have money" has a positive tone, second one "i have no more debt" negative tone. both will bring about change, and you might have to take some action in one direction or another, but i find the more you manifest, the lest action is needed to get that ball rolling.

i used this idea, and proved it to myself this last year. for a good part of the year, i was struggling really hard, i was really depressed and had a "what else can go wrong" sort of mind set, and well, things got worse continually...I started to realize i was just miserable, so i started trying to be positive and took on a "its going to get better" mind set and things rapidly started changing as i really got into that frame of mind. It wasn't just in how i looked at my life that changed, but my situation as a whole has just been getting better and better, and with very little effort other then changing the way i thought. i'm not out of the woods yet, but in just the last 3 months my world has done a 180 and i've barely lifted a finger to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by DatBillionaire

Nothing is impossible.

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I am all for stretching beliefs but i am not sure how can i change certain things just on belief . Let's say i want to rejuvenate of 10 / 15 years ,okay i can hit the gym ,eat healthy food or do some treatments but only on beliefs how would i rejuvenate ? Should i get myself into believing that it is possible to rejuvenate and then ? Would i see myself rejuvenate once convinced ? I am not sure .I probably have doubts that everything is possible just if you believe ..