Click outs, click outs, click outs, ARGH!

My latest problem is crazy amounts of click outs.

Now that I am quite familiar with the Intro to Focus 10 exercise, I've become so trained that I always start to fall asleep at the 10 part relaxation sequence. Always. This is a great starting point, to always know where I'm going to start falling asleep.

The problem with this is that when I attempt to stay mentally awake through this, I have started clicking out like crazy. This isn't even, I fall asleep and remember having falling asleep. It goes something like this:

1. He talks about step one, relaxing the jaw.

I wait and listen, concentrating hard on staying awake... waiting for step 2.

6. The next thing he says is step 6, NOT step 2!

I've just lost steps 2-5, with no memory of losing them, and no memory of there being any break in consciousness. With a sigh, I'd back it up to Step 1 again, rather than starting it over. And I don't even need the lead-in! Thirty seconds later, I've clicked out again and he's talking about bringing you back to full conscious awareness, so I've gone and lost another 20 minutes with no recollection. This is a new kind of challenge... I used to worry about falling asleep. Now I'm not falling asleep so much as totally losing track altogether.

Onward...

I see that in oobd's thread, someone suggested sitting up to tackle click-outs.

Unfortunately I have a back injury that makes seated meditation just about impossible, so I do my hemisync in a reclining armchair. I'll try tilting it up as vertical as possible while maintaining comfort.

Well, I am no expert by any means. But what I am finding is that my intuition and natural "abilities" are leading me strongly. I find that naturally, I want to fall asleep in the lying position that is recommended. If laying down is necessary, as RB says, laying with both arms and hands above your head. Which I will try tonight, because my strongest closest obe sensation exit thing, was when I was in that (for me) natural position. If laying on your back with both arms above your head is uncomfortable for your back, try placing different size pillows or cushions under your lower back. I found when I did this in the past (about two weeks ago), That caused the slight discomfort that kept me "lucid."

Just an idea.

stargazer, have you tried some of the tricks people mention to train yourself to stop clicking out?

Rest your elbow, but keep your hand in the air. When you start to fall asleep, your arm drops and wakes you up. Clicking out is falling asleep. The goal is to maintain the level of consciousness between awake and asleep. When we click out (fall asleep), we still separate and have an OBE. We just don't remember it because it hasn't been downloaded in a way that keeps the memory intact.

One of the U.S. inventors, can't remember which one (telephone, electricity, one of those guys) discovered this creative zone of consciousness between awake and asleep. To develop and train it, he would put a tin bucket next to his chair, dangle his arm down toward it, holding a stone. When he fell asleep, the stone would drop, causing a noise that would awaken him. After doing this a lot, he mastered that state of consciousness. Says all his inventions came from that.

One of our members has his own website and sells an alarm clock timer that goes off every so often to keep you awake. That might help. http://www.saltcube.com/obe-guide/

Hi Patty,

I've tried the raised arm trick with some good effect... this has been very supportive at my attempts to work on clairvoyance. I had not paired this technique with hemisync as the tracks indicated that the body was supposed to be asleep while the mind remains awake... can an arm be held raised while the body is asleep ? Generally what happens to me while I used this technique is that I am able to hold my arm aloft and lose 99% awareness of it, and experience beautiful short lived, detailed, and if I so direct it, answer-like visions layered and knit with levels of intuition, but my body is JUST awake enough from the raised arm to keep me anchored to lucidity.

Thanks for the clarification on click outs.. I thought they were different from falling asleep in that one loses track of an experience without awareness of that loss. Ultimately I spose that's the same as falling asleep but I always feel a bit different when I lose time without an awareness of having fallen asleep, an awareness of that gap of time. It's like no time has passed at all. I'll revise my terminology. :D

Saltcube Matthew! The amazing lucid dreamer. :D

Hello, stargazer - in the years 05/06 I did some Monroe work as well, and it simply takes some time to not fall asleep. As at this time I had more problems with bad sleep it was not as pronounced a problem with me. The arm/elbow trick works, and I guess your awareness should work as well.

This mind awake/body asleep state is especially initially like walking a rope. If you tip too much too a side, you fall off (=asleep). When you find your balance, which usually takes not that much work, it becomes natural and really easy.

I had another "problem" with Monroe tapes: Extreme time slow-down, where nothing seemed to happen for long stretches of time. Whenever there was no direct clue of the time passed, as between the slow-spoken sentences, time slowed down extremely. The next spoken word came after what seemed like minutes or parts of hours, and voices could sometimes even slow down to half-speed or much less. I was surprised to find later on, when listening without headphones, that the pauses "were not there".

Revealing for me was the part when I heard a distinct continuous tone. This usually denoted attunement, as I could not find the tone on normal speaker. I guess you hear it when the synchronisation kicks in and both hemispheres combine their signal into a coherent tone. It seems to rise out of the noise and then suddenly the noise is gone.

In the start it is surely easier if you are - like me - bad at relaxing. Dripping off and clicking out is then encountered not as often, as residual tension helps keeping awake. Nowadays I have problems with that myself when trying to meditate and suddenly my head "drops". It really can feel like nothing "missed" at all.

Do you like your Monroe experience up until now?

Oliver

Thanks for the great response, Korpo

Your analogy of walking a rope is a great one... I have found that with using the tapes, my tipping "Radius" has narrowed considerably... I was accustomed to being either wide awake and frustrated/ restless and tipping widely over to being deeply asleep and feeling very sleepy upon waking.

Now the tipping arc is more like... vaguely awake with awareness of sleeping limbs with brief moments of timeless, swimmy "in a box" telltale trance feelings, and tipping slightly over to just "under" asleep so that there's a brief loss of consciousness. The wobbling is still wobbling but it feels like a much narrower wobbling. Of course, my impatience kicks in and expects more of a "ON/OFF" kind of sensation and that one day it'll just click, but the results so far indicate that it's more of a .. wobbling towards that eventual state of balance. I think I just need to keep with it and not give up just because the results have been more gradual in nature. After all, I'm someone who dismissed meditation as too passive to hold much interest for me til I read up and discovered how meditation could be so many things... including a springboard for some very dynamic, amazing experiences. So I have a long way to go still, in learning how to quiet my mind and have control over my physical responses.

Interesting re: the time slow downs... sometimes if I'm too tired, every time I'd sink down into sleep the hemisync would make an ugly blaring noise. Or I should say, my brain would start hearing it as an ugly blaring noise every time I "fell under.". It was rather like a "fall asleep" alarm, but not very pleasant. My belief is that this is not an optimal way to experience hemisync and indicates that one is much too tired to get much benefit.
I've noticed lately that I am hearing more "Sleep artifacts" in the tracks... particularly a sort of burbling/burpy abrupt noise that happens in my right ear sometimes.
The tone is interesting as well.. sometimes with varying tracks I'd hear cumulative bell-like sounds or voice-like sounds but I never really put too much stock in them... maybe the bell-like tone is something to be aware of as a positive indicator. I'll work on that.

I have actually really come to like the Monroe material... I had chafed initially at the structure, but now I really find myself looking forward to hemisync time (And wish I had more time to do it). I had started out listening to the tracks in continuous fashion, but since I haven't retained some of the automatic steps like the affirmation yet, I decided to stick with Intro to Focus 10 til I mastered it. Also a big help is that in becoming familiar with the tracks, I've overcome a big fear factor and rather than seeming strange and impersonal, the tracks have become familiar working tools. They also help me set aside "hemisync time" as a time to work on trance and meditation, NOT relaxation and sleep.. and I think the mental separation is really important to my success. Past attempts at meditation just meant getting sleepy and nodding off and losing interest in it as a workable practice. I'd try a technique or two, then scrap it and move onto something else after a failure "nod." For some reason the Monroe tapes have stuck in my craw and I've been consistently listening to Focus 10 for about 3-4 weeks now, 4-5 times a week, and I think I'm making some decent progress... I'll let you know how it goes !! I will master Focus 10 just yet. :D

OH a good side effect of doing the focus 10 work is that I've noticed I've started spending a lot more time in Focus 10 as I'm waking up. Which has not too much practical use as I don't recognize it at the time, and only later when I wake up... but indicates that my mind is becoming more comfortable with it as a state.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Thanks for the great response, Korpo

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You're welcomer, stargazer. :)

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Your analogy of walking a rope is a great one... I have found that with using the tapes, my tipping "Radius" has narrowed considerably... I was accustomed to being either wide awake and frustrated/ restless and tipping widely over to being deeply asleep and feeling very sleepy upon waking.

Now the tipping arc is more like... vaguely awake with awareness of sleeping limbs with brief moments of timeless, swimmy "in a box" telltale trance feelings, and tipping slightly over to just "under" asleep so that there's a brief loss of consciousness. The wobbling is still wobbling but it feels like a much narrower wobbling. Of course, my impatience kicks in and expects more of a "ON/OFF" kind of sensation and that one day it'll just click, but the results so far indicate that it's more of a .. wobbling towards that eventual state of balance. I think I just need to keep with it and not give up just because the results have been more gradual in nature.

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Exactly, stargazer.

The rewards are great, and progress is normally really good. In fact you are just mastering it at a critical stage - every time you not fall asleep you condition your system to - well - not fall asleep. This is important, and you want to remember that. Later on, whether practising Trance Work like in MAP or Focus 10 or meditation, you want to recognise that falling asleep and avoid that. Because when you build the habit of falling asleep, you need to untrain the habit again, with at least as much time involved.

There was a time, I already could count myself into Focus 10 without Hemi-Sync, I was practising tranceing often on the commuter train. I fell asleep because I was not necessarily very awake to start with, and relaxation was deep, etc. I had to untrain this effect thoroughly after becoming aware I was doing this for some time. This took some time I'd rather already spent in doing trance work. The good news is - untraining the falling asleep response at any time builds and strengthens the balance as well. Afterwards you're better off than before. :)

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Originally Posted by stargazer

After all, I'm someone who dismissed meditation as too passive to hold much interest for me til I read up and discovered how meditation could be so many things... including a springboard for some very dynamic, amazing experiences. So I have a long way to go still, in learning how to quiet my mind and have control over my physical responses.

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Yeah, me too. It is not easy, and I have to remind myself regularly, that by doing it every day, I am actually making the progress I am looking for, even though it does not necessarily seem so.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Interesting re: the time slow downs... sometimes if I'm too tired, every time I'd sink down into sleep the hemisync would make an ugly blaring noise. Or I should say, my brain would start hearing it as an ugly blaring noise every time I "fell under.". It was rather like a "fall asleep" alarm, but not very pleasant. My belief is that this is not an optimal way to experience hemisync and indicates that one is much too tired to get much benefit.

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I did not recognise that, but I did not click out before reaching Focus 10. It could be there is something like that at the start of the tape. When Monroe declares you are now in Focus 10, this should not be the case. IIRC he says with some exercises, that when you drift off to sleep it will be very refreshing... ;)

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Originally Posted by stargazer

I've noticed lately that I am hearing more "Sleep artifacts" in the tracks... particularly a sort of burbling/burpy abrupt noise that happens in my right ear sometimes.

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stargazer, if I were you I would definitely try and check my equipment. Any noise too sharp can actually come from a faulty stereo headphone. The sounds I encountered during Hemi-Sync sessions are noise (which can fade into the background as it IS the background) and the clear Hemi-Sync tone when in sync (or so I believe). This one has a somewhat pulsating quality, a sort of humming, but in an "electrical way".

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Originally Posted by stargazer

The tone is interesting as well.. sometimes with varying tracks I'd hear cumulative bell-like sounds or voice-like sounds but I never really put too much stock in them... maybe the bell-like tone is something to be aware of as a positive indicator. I'll work on that.

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I actually think so, yes. Of course, with Resonant Tuning you should hear voice-like sounds! ;) Just kidding, sorry! :) Yeah, bell-like quality sounds good. Very clear.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

I have actually really come to like the Monroe material... I had chafed initially at the structure, but now I really find myself looking forward to hemisync time (And wish I had more time to do it). I had started out listening to the tracks in continuous fashion, but since I haven't retained some of the automatic steps like the affirmation yet, I decided to stick with Intro to Focus 10 til I mastered it.

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Good decision, IMO. I found that the Focus 10 training on other Monroe Tapes besides the Gateway Experience is good as well. There are some tapes for self-hypnosis, and each contains a separate training track first, and that one is very good as well for Focus 10 training. It focuses on Focus 10 without much of the Gateway toolset, you can put that on repeat.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Also a big help is that in becoming familiar with the tracks, I've overcome a big fear factor and rather than seeming strange and impersonal, the tracks have become familiar working tools.

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Yes, Robert's voice can become very soothing. It's really a shame that the last two waves are not recorded by himself. His full, deep voice is part of the effect - like not every hypnotiser is of the same quality, and voice plays a role in that, and personality as well.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

They also help me set aside "hemisync time" as a time to work on trance and meditation, NOT relaxation and sleep.. and I think the mental separation is really important to my success. Past attempts at meditation just meant getting sleepy and nodding off and losing interest in it as a workable practice.

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Yeah, I know. You are not alone that, and while there are some over-achievers favored by karma or whatever, most of us have to train the monkey mind, and trance training is a good starting point to build some concentration I guess. Walking the fine line without nodding off is a way to train the mind. In time it becomes not so fine anymore. First you attain this feat with the tape, and then - you'll see! - you transport it beyond the tape into RL.

This is the proof that Monroe actually schools and trains your mind, and Hemi-Sync is not just a crutch. It's an aid that will help to build a base for your practise. And that building takes it time, like all other stuff. You cannot rush it, but as long as you do it, you will always make progress.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

I'd try a technique or two, then scrap it and move onto something else after a failure "nod." For some reason the Monroe tapes have stuck in my craw and I've been consistently listening to Focus 10 for about 3-4 weeks now, 4-5 times a week, and I think I'm making some decent progress... I'll let you know how it goes !! I will master Focus 10 just yet. :D

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I am perfectly sure you will, and will be very interested in your progress.

Without sticking to anything you cannot really make progress, but since I read your other post, I know you're a musician and then you know. I was playing the e-guitar for seven years, and even though I got good, I realise that with the patience practise the "other" skills taught, and with learning the rewards of patience, I could nowadays become a better musician than I was some years ago. Maybe you can do it the other way round - bring the patience of a determined musician, who does scales, note reading, finger training, and repetition after repetition gets first the skill to do a song at all, and then starts to make the song his or her own.

There is a nice Buddhist story. Among Buddha's followers was a musician of great skill. And the same determination he put into his music he started putting into meditation, and made good progress. And then he hit a wall, he could not go further, he was becoming really frustrated. And he asked the Buddha, and he chose the words the musician could understand by heart: "If you play an lute, and the string is loose, the sound will be wobbly and not clean. But if the string is too tight, the string will break, and there is no sound at all. The optimal sounding string is not too tight and not too loose, and will yield a fine sound". The musician pondered this, and understood - he was losing balance. He pushed too hard - himself. He had mentally done the same as playing until your fingers bleed - then you can no longer practise, or only at the risk of really damaging your fingers. Same goes for the mind. Balance is important.

Now you are trying to get your string tighter, to establish the mind at the "place" of Focus 10. This is like hitting a note with a violin, the more often you try, the more reliably you will hit the note, and build your sensitivity for the note. The good thing is that learning Focus 10 is a lot easier than learning the violin! :)

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Originally Posted by stargazer

OH a good side effect of doing the focus 10 work is that I've noticed I've started spending a lot more time in Focus 10 as I'm waking up. Which has not too much practical use as I don't recognize it at the time, and only later when I wake up... but indicates that my mind is becoming more comfortable with it as a state.

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Yes, that is good. Besides, I have to commend you. The troubles you're having with Focus 10 are showing your aptitude at relaxation. I had the opposite problem - not being able to let go. You will wobble a bit back and forth across the Focus 10 line, then balance out, and then more and more Focus 10 will turn from a line into a band, and it will get natural to balance on it. And then you redo it with Focus 12, etc. ;) But with the confidence and training from Focus 10 that is much easier.

Wish you the best,
Oliver

Hi, how's it going with Focus 10 for you?

Inspired by discussions with you and Nnonnth I tried out one of the Gateway tapes again I have. So I tried exercise 2 - basic Focus 10.

It was easier to follow Robert's instructions now a 3/4 year later. No boredom or problems, the tape got more deep for me. I was hearing more of the tape, of the sounds, of the signals that fade in and out, and felt more of their effect. I often thought such a Monroe tape was a straight affair, now I think every effect, every suggestion of Robert is amplified with a matching signal.

What I furthermore noticed that listening to the tape and going with it is actually an act of energy work. I could feel energy spreading, sensations, my blockages. I could directly feel many of the experiences that may have been more subtle a year ago. I could feel changes in my body.

So I came to the conclusion that the Monroe tape itself can enhance and be enhanced by other practise. Anything that helps developing inner feeling helps the Monroe sensation. And the state the tape induces energizes and relaxes to improve that practise. It's a great tool.

Having found a new depth within it for myself, I think you can benefit in many ways if you just continue, as I think the energizing effect of the tape and the relaxation it induces will build over time. It just may take some time, as the tape can enhance and help the skills you have, not create them at the push of a button. But I guess you didn't expect that anyway! :)

So I felt energized and relaxed all over, and I wish you the same.

Good luck,
Oliver

Hi Oliver, thanks for checking in.

I've been a bit too busy lately to practice Focus 10 much, but my last few sessions have been really good... at one point I heard this loud hypnagogic sigh in my right ear, as if Robert were sighing. Hehe. But yeah, lots of great stuff.. during one session I found myself staring at this floating piece of lint, tracking its progress in the sunlight.. and then I realized that my eyes weren't open at all.

I totally agree with the enhance / help aspect of the tapes vs. an instanteous create... I too have also noticed energetic effects from listening to the tape, oddly much more so than non-Monroe hemisync tracks that are devoted to chakra / energy work. For me, the tapes induce a cycle of body rushes... energy rushing up through the body in waves.

"Untraining the sleep response" .. thanks for that... just out of curiosity I tried without hemisync to do some work by just examining that process. I'd sit up in a comfy chair and clear my mind and as my head started to fall for a sleepy nod, I'd focus EXTREMELY hard on staying awake and finding the "pocket"... training my brain with the idea that there's a balance point between wake and sleep that is worth stopping at. What was interesting is that the few brief seconds I was able to hold myself before slipping into a nod, I'd suddenly get INTENSE energy waves shooting up from heart to throat chakra... I have NEVER experienced that before and something there tells me that I'm on the right path. As I was experiencing this, I thought of you actually... and it was like a lightbulb went off.. that maybe this is the right direction. Whereas it's so easy to feel like a "FAIL" because of the nodding off... maybe going TOWARDS that sleepiness isn't failure, it's a matter of training the brain to hold back and stop that "falling asleep response." I used to avoid the Nod-Off feeling entirely, thinking that I was doing this wrong.. when in fact, it MIGHT be something I need to embrace as a challenge towards something that (at this point) only seems to exist conceptually .. the trance state. I've certainly experienced trance state, but never on purpose and most of the time it was coming up from sleep, rather than going down into it... I think it's so interesting and worthwhile to develop this consciously.

I should have clarified.. the sharp noises I hear are hypnagogic only, they are not native to the tracks. The equipment is ok.

LOL I play the violin, and I find Focus 10 WAY harder than that.. of course... I practiced diligently for hours every day and was on a structured path with teachers helping me, so that may have something to do with it. :D :lol:

Whoa!!! Stargazer, you are a heck of a lot closer than you think you are if I'm reading this right.

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swimmy "in a box"

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Sounds just like energy body loosening to me. Which is a precursor for projecting. In other words, you are one step away from it.

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Interesting re: the time slow downs... sometimes if I'm too tired, every time I'd sink down into sleep the hemisync would make an ugly blaring noise. Or I should say, my brain would start hearing it as an ugly blaring noise every time I "fell under.". It was rather like a "fall asleep" alarm, but not very pleasant. My belief is that this is not an optimal way to experience hemisync and indicates that one is much too tired to get much benefit. I've noticed lately that I am hearing more "Sleep artifacts" in the tracks... particularly a sort of burbling/burpy abrupt noise that happens in my right ear sometimes. The tone is interesting as well.. sometimes with varying tracks I'd hear cumulative bell-like sounds or voice-like sounds but I never really put too much stock in them... maybe the bell-like tone is something to be aware of as a positive indicator.

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Again, you are a hair breadth away from projecting. This sounds like "astral noises". Bells and voice-like sounds? Classic astral noise. You've opened your awareness to the astral, but not quite projected yet.

You are way past Focus 10, girl!

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Interesting re: the time slow downs

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Hello!! Focus 15 - "No Time" focus level. If you are experiencing time as either "slower", "faster", or "no time at all", you can bet your bottom dollar you're in Focus 15.

I don't have time to read the posts past what I commented on, but I'll bet you've had a lot of other things happen that you aren't recognizing them for what they are. Because you are listening to a Focus 10 CD, doesn't mean that's exactly where you'll go. I can put on a Focus 10 and end up in any of the focuses. Or, do the whole vibration thing and have a good, old fashioned OBE. Open your mind. Believe what you are experiencing. Don't just write it off to maybe this and maybe that.

Some info: Astral Noises, Hypnagogia:
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... tral+noise

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In Astral Dynamics, p.512-513, Robert Bruce writes:Quote:
I believe there are two possible causes for astral noises:
Accidental: It is possible that natural sounds and voices are picked up by the heightened senses of the projecting double, as it tunes into parts of the local real-time or astral environment during the prelude to an exit….
Deliberate: Another possibility is that some astral noises are deliberately produced and telepathically aimed at projectors by low order astral wildlife. Robert Bruce

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Dealing with Astral Noises: Any and all astral noises must be totally ignored during the exit stage of an OBE. Robert Bruce

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Also, in my personal experience, I have more OBE's when doing lots of energy work. Robert's NEW is a major factor in any of my OBE or mystical experiences. When I stop NEW, everything else seems to stop or become less often. Just a suggestion. :wink:

Hi all,

I've done the Gateway experience Wave I and gone more lightly into Wave II and II.
I went off frustrated because I would feel asleep. The fact is the Gateway Experience, from my NEW experience point of view now, is likely to be considerably heigthened with the silight discomfort NEW concept.
If you can work on that slight discomfort while Gateway-ing, then things may be way different. Also, learning NEW will boost many great many things in the Gateway. So I think at least NEW is a great catalyzer.
And the Gateway is a great plateform for learning and discovery.

(Ps: I'm currently a daily NEW practitionner, begun the MAP Program in Aug 2005 and finished it).

Bastien

I totally agree with Tempest, you seem to go along pretty well.

Furthermore I did not think about astral noise at all, though it happens quite regularly to me. I now recognise the thought "Why the bleep they always start moving the furniture when I'm trying to relax" pretty much as the sign for astral noise. A slight murmur can happen for me as well, and once during an inner projection I had a lot of laughing and giggling "people" along, and since I was living at a student dorm, I thought "Sounds like in my room, keep it down, dammit!" ;) I only recognised all these phenomena when I was reading RB's MAP book, it's great for that.

The first time I used a Focus 10 exercise ever, and everything was brand-new, I instantly felt the following: The sound of the Focus 10 pulse was accelerating and rising in pitch, and I felt drawn up along upward, rising, could see an upward drift in my hypnagogic imagery, and IIRC a slight hint of Astral Sight. Since I felt not prepared I stopped the attempt, frankly I was afraid because the reality of it was overwhelming - I was not doing meditation, energy work or anything like that at that time. It's testament to the potency of the tapes as they can induce strong effects even in people without a consistent spiritual practise...

I see you seem to be nicely on your way. Astral sight is an extremely encouraging achievement. Energy rushes I experienced yesterday as well. I felt expanding warmth in chest and head, and my throat was getting dry. In fact this is a long-standing Focus and meditation problem, but this time due to the energy rush I could identify it to be linked to a throat blockage / set of blockages. So I guess you are having everything in place already, and if you want you can now do several things.

You could try to project with the tapes only. When you find a floating up or rushing upward phenomenon go with it and it could well be you float out, though Tempest knows better than I for sure. I know the phenomenon since I have up until now have resisted it somewhat. And - this is not exclusive to the projection training! :) - you can deepen your skill at Focus 10, imprint the training deeper into your subconscious, and use the affirmation to become better and more adept at Focus 10 by counting into it. Then you can transport the trance capability to the world beyond the tapes (you know, RL :) ) and trance when you think it's an appropriate moment, like I did in the commuter train. This can make up for some missed sleep, for example. :)

So, wish you (even more) good progress and share your experiences! I'm very interested in Monroe stuff, and sucking this up like a sponge. ;) And else you might have taken much longer to realise how well you were already doing... :)

Regards,
Oliver

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Originally Posted by Tempestinateapot

You are way past Focus 10, girl!

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Interesting re: the time slow downs

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Hello!! Focus 15 - "No Time" focus level. If you are experiencing time as either "slower", "faster", or "no time at all", you can bet your bottom dollar you're in Focus 15.

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Hey, Tempest.

I could recognise time slowing down for myself, as stretches between Robert's announcements became virtually endless or I could hear his voice at half-speed. Surely no feature of my CD player... ;)

But this was mostly with the Focus 10/12 tapes, does the tape not limit which state you end up in? Does the effect more often occur with the appropriate tape?

I always thought somehow that Focus 10 was an elevated state, but due to the exercise "regime" in the Gateway tapes I thought Focus 12 was for projection, as it includes exit technique training. I'm quite unsure of this, because I had this near-exit on my first Focus 10. But you have tried, so could you tell me what your experience was, Tempest?

Thanks and regards,
Oliver

One thing that might help is something that I noticed at TMI. The Gateway Voyage is a one week workshop. The trainers move you along really fast. No long lingering in Focus 10. The attitude I understood (which I could have misinterpreted) was that if you don't recognize yet where you are, don't worry about it. Just keep going. They spent a couple of days (maybe less?) on Focus 10 and moved on to the next focuses. At the very end of the week, they were asking people if they could tell the difference between the different focuses. They also said there aren't exact signposts, that the focuses kind of blend one into the other. Some people who hadn't had a single experience (except to fall alseep) had great experiences towards the end when in higher numbered focuses.

One thing that's really important to remember... and easy to forget....one focus is not "better" or "higher" than the next. Robert Monroe's reasoning for not using 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., and to use a crazy number system was to help people understand that the focus levels are different experiences in the astral, not a grading system of how advanced you are. Also, the focus levels are not actual "places". They are states of consciousness. Everything exists everywhere at once. Linear time, as we know it, is an illusion. When you experience slower, faster, or no time, you are getting a real feel for what this means (time illusion).

Also, don't be turned off by click outs. I've had experiences using the tapes, getting vibrations, clicking out, and coming to in the most incredible places. Places and experiences I could never imagine in my wildest dreams. I may have missed the "exit", but who cares when you have an experience of actually Being God and knowing everything at once. :D My most incredible experiences have been when I wasn't expecting them. Don't get too hung up on doing everything systematically. You can put yourself in a box by doing that, and not allowing experiences because you "expect" something else.

Everybody's different, but Monroe's later emphasis wasn't on exit vibrations, exit training, etc. He became an expert "phaser", which is a different way of getting into the astral. I do both traditional OBE exits, and phasing...but where I end up doesn't rely on how I got there. Doing a traditional exit, with astral noise, vibrations, lifting out, and going into the Real Time Zone are usually more difficult than phasing. It takes a lot more concentration and practice than phasing, unless you are a spontaneous projector. I suck at getting into the Real Time Zone. Personally, I think it's the hardest thing to do. The balance there is razor sharp, and difficult to maintain. A lot of people are fooled that that's actually where they are. Reality fluctuations are your first clue that you're in an astral copy and not the RTZ. But, hey, that experience can be great, too.

Korpo, I don't think the tapes limit you to what focus you are in. They are engineered for specific focuses, but your Higher Self, your spirit, whatever you want to call it, will usually take you where you need to go that's most beneficial for you...if you open yourself to it. Remember Monroe "closing down" his awareness for protection or other things? You have that ability too, and you can let it limit what you experience. It's a good thing to know how to do for protection, but you need to control when you use it. By expecting to be in a certain place and no other, you may be subconsciously closing down to other experiences.

Thanks, Tempest.

That cleared up several things for me. On a superficial glance the system seems so hierarchical, but since in the beginning you only roughly hit the spot, it's very random anyway, except that it triggers something, I guess.

Yes, I think I have closed down quite a bit, but I guess that I can change (over time).

Thanks for the encouragement. Hope one day I go there, too, but it is too much a trip now, being overseas and all. It is inspiring to know it is such a lovely location.

Oliver

Tempest

Your posts have been reminding me of something that came up for me in a medium reading once... she said "You're trying to get somewhere... but you're already there!"

Actually my goal lately has not been to project... When I focused on that as a goal, some really dynamic things started happening to me and I didn't feel ready to take them on. For instance, I woke up in the middle of a projection reflex, thinking I was dying... got ripped out of a dream into heavy energetic sensations, heart pounding, feeling trapped in a loud, buzzing, dense frenetic cloud of heat and energy. Or, I'd effect a transition in a lucid dream and feel vibrations than lose lucidity due to insufficient focus and energy. I found myself facing the wide gap between reading about an experience and experiencing it... "Rob wasn't kidding when he said in AD that the projection reflex could be intense!" I really felt that I needed to work on my core skills rather than skip over them to get to the "cool stuff".. especially as the intensity of the projection exit indicated that my chakras just weren't used to that kind of activity. So my goal over the past year or so has been to really intensify my energy work and to also get a better grasp of basic meditation and trance meditation. If any lucid or astral experiences came along, I'd welcome them, but they were not an immediate goal.

The use of the hemisync tapes was to help effect my goal of maintaining a good solid Focus 10... mind awake, body asleep. I can skitter all over the place and experience trance-like sensations of "box over head" or "no time" and hear astral noises, and even touch upon lucid dream experiences... clairvoyance... etc... my issue is that I don't feel that I have good, conscious control over these experiences. For instance, I can concentrate and fall a little bit "under" into Focus 10/12 and experience a vision that refers to an issue I'm posing, but I always experience these things as a remembered experience, as if I was asleep / slightly out of it when I experienced them. Rather the way the brain files an astral experience sometimes, like a recollection / memory vs. a "no break in consciousness". I'm trying to develop better lucidity / stability in entering these experiences so that I have better control and direction. I guess drifting accidentally through Focii doesn't have as much value to me as intentionally directing myself forward. Which is why lately I've been sticking with Focus 10 til I really feel like I've mastered it. I guess I should ask, though... would it be valuable to just continue forward and listen to the other tracks? Since as you say the folks at TMI don't dawdle and move you right forward? I spose I could give it a try, I guess I just listened to the Free Flow and it said "repeat the mantra" and I was like "uh oh, I don't have the mantra down, I better go back and keep listening til I have it down" ... also because I feel like I really haven't nailed down "Mind awake, body asleep" QUITE yet. It's more like "Mind slightly somewhat under / over awake, body asleep" ... but maybe it wouldn't hurt to keep going?

Oliver, I too would love to go TMI one of these days... Nothing like being in an environment of like-minded folks and no distractions to really set some awesome things in motion. :D Focus 10 is going well... lately I am sitting up and listening to the exercise, and find myself losing whole gaps of time entirely without any awareness of losing them! I've mentioned this phenomenon before, but now it's QUITE prevalent... I'll be sitting there, listening hard, relaxed and waiting for the next cue, and when he starts talking he'll be THREE cues later! Last night I listened quite carefully to the exercise and somehow lost the entire last 10 minutes... I was waiting for him to start the countdown to Focus 10 and instead of THAT countdown, he was starting the countdown to coming back to consciousness!!! Since now it's less likely for me to stay completely awake through it, time to do the exercise earlier in the day and without any head support. I am really feeling good about my progress as I wasn't experiencing this kind of thing before at all when I started.

-Andrea

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Originally Posted by stargazer

I really felt that I needed to work on my core skills rather than skip over them to get to the "cool stuff".. especially as the intensity of the projection exit indicated that my chakras just weren't used to that kind of activity. So my goal over the past year or so has been to really intensify my energy work and to also get a better grasp of basic meditation and trance meditation. If any lucid or astral experiences came along, I'd welcome them, but they were not an immediate goal.

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Hello, Andrea.

This is exactly how I was feeling and what I was doing last year!! (<= It really awards a 2nd exclamation point I think! :) )

Seeing the stuff work - 2 inner projections where my consciousness drifted free in a dark space, but my ears were still connected with my hearing, drifting close and away, astral noise, etc. - gave me the creeps. Suddenly I knew it was real. That somehow suppressed the playfulness I felt before, as I became afraid.

I took a look on RB's MAP, at all the not directly projection-related exercises (everything but exit techniques and body bounces), and tried to work me deeper into that - breath work & mind taming became meditation, energy work became Qigong, affirmations and imaging became self-hypnosis, etc. If I look back, so much has changed in my year. I realise that back then my body was in dire need of being healed or un-tensed, that I needed to make my energy flow again, and now I'm better prepared than before, and I guess this will indeed help, as I now can handle Focus 10 better than before, and feel this state in another way than before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stargazer

... also because I feel like I really haven't nailed down "Mind awake, body asleep" QUITE yet. It's more like "Mind slightly somewhat under / over awake, body asleep" ... but maybe it wouldn't hurt to keep going?

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I think it could even help. What you're trying now is hitting a certain "band" within the range of consciousness, but you are still skipping in a wider band than you intend. It happened to me a lot in the beginning as well.

If you switch between the guided Focus 10, 12 & 15 tapes you might get a better feel for what those bands are you are trying to hit. Furthermore any of these states is associated with a certain energetic experience. This all should help your mind nailing these things down. In the end effect nothing "untowards" can happen, the foci are very powerful yet gentle.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Focus 10 is going well... lately I am sitting up and listening to the exercise, and find myself losing whole gaps of time entirely without any awareness of losing them! I've mentioned this phenomenon before, but now it's QUITE prevalent... I'll be sitting there, listening hard, relaxed and waiting for the next cue, and when he starts talking he'll be THREE cues later!

---

I did the exercise "Release & Recharge" lately. It was very nice, but something "odd" happened. I was concentrated on the Energy Conversion Box exercise, as it is the main point to draw upon later in the exercise. The signal rose into Focus 10, I followed. And then I noticed I had simply took on Focus 10, but I can remember no one counting! It happens, it was Focus 10 nevertheless. :)

You should try to listen to that exercise, it can help release a bit of the worries one has. One year ago I did it and felt not much, and my mind was inserting huge gaps between verbal cues and acustic release cue (bubbles! ;) ), and I didn't feel much happen in the way of the exercise itself. This time I could feel the energetic sensations, and the sensations of the exercise were different from what I expect. Expectations actually hurt here. :)

So I was taking a symbol out of my ECB, and floated it away. A certain release could be felt. And the symbols became more spontaneous. And the underlying emotion surfaced as well, if you stop looking and let it happen - it's a bit "fuzzy" at first, but the process works. As I was told to "recover the memory, take in its energy" I did not come up with a memory as expected, but I am not the visual type anyway, but I did for sure get an influx of energy, I tell you.

This is a good exercise to establish communication with the subconscious and the higher self within a Focus 10 framework, and at the intuition parts it help to expect nothing at all and let go, and then put all those "stored up" activity in the following visualisations. It can begin the release & healing of issues like fears I think, though, as they say, it's no panacea. It still requires "work" - persistent effort every so often. Well, who would have guessed? ;)

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Last night I listened quite carefully to the exercise and somehow lost the entire last 10 minutes... I was waiting for him to start the countdown to Focus 10 and instead of THAT countdown, he was starting the countdown to coming back to consciousness!!! Since now it's less likely for me to stay completely awake through it, time to do the exercise earlier in the day and without any head support. I am really feeling good about my progress as I wasn't experiencing this kind of thing before at all when I started.

---

The focus tapes seem to work with the unconscious part of your mind if you "blank out", IIRC. The guided tapes I'd guess more than the "free flow", but that's only a thought of mine. So you learn anyway. Try to keep focussed, it should help.

RB's tips on this are good, how to stay within trance without falling asleep or losing lucidity. I think you are employing worthwhile strategies already, anyway!

Nice to hear from you, and wish you the best,
Oliver

Stargazer, several things came to mind while reading your last post. The biggest one is only my opinion, but it's something I've heard other projectors also say. If you get vibrations, start lifting out, go with it. If you shut it down out of fear, that becomes a reflex and makes it much more difficult to exit later when you are trying. This happened to me, and, unfortunately, at the time, I knew absolutely nothing about projecting except that I'd heard of it. I was lying down, and simply said to myself, "I could leave my body, no problem". It was the easiest time I've ever exited, but I slammed back in my body (literally) out of fear. The sound I heard was like a train was roaring through the room...it was that loud. The vibrations felt exactly like a jack hammer was strapped to me. But, the more you practice and actually "get out", the milder the vibes and noises become. Most times now, I never even have them. I rather miss them, because it was actually pretty cool. :lol: But, you've got to get the fear out, or it will follow you. Going with the exit and ignoring sounds, pounding heart chakra, and vibes will eventually show you there is nothing to be afraid of. You don't have to be an advanced OBE'r to just walk around in your room. Leave a light on, and it isn't so scary at night. It's really hysterical when you can't completely get out. One in particular that cracks me up is the time I got completely out, except my head. I was hanging upside down with my energy head stuck to my physical head. :lol:

I have a feeling that no matter how much energy work you do, you are still going to have crazy exit sensations until you've done it enough for them to become mild or non-existent. I could be wrong, but it seems like one of those crazy hazing tests you have to go through...like eating a goldfish to get into a fraternity.

The Monroe mantra?? Yeh, I got this much memorized..."I am more than my physical body, blah, blah, blah". Seriously, I never used it. :lol: For what it's worth, IMO, you are stuck in a box of having to do everything just right. Conversion box?? Yeh, that went out the door after the first time. I couldn't decide what color or how many jewels to put on it, or....I'm an artist, so you get the picture. It was more distracting than the stuff I was supposed to put in it. :D Toning? Made my throat tickle and me cough, so that went into the round file, too.

My point is that if those things work for you, great, use them. If they don't, don't get hung up on them. There's more ways than one to skin a cat...oh, I mean, skin your body by OBE'ing.

When you click out...you always get out. The part to work on is remembering it. Which just takes practice. As Robert recommends, the first several times you get out, say whoopie and dive back in. You will download the memory a lot easier. Staying out and having adventures is cool, but when you can barely remember them, it's frustrating. You can stay out longer each time.

P.S. - You are aware that Monroe stopped traditional exit OBE'ing years later after his first book and just used phasing? You can have great adventures just phasing.

Hey, Tempest.

How does one "phase"?

Regards,
Oliver

How to phase:
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=5697
more info:
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... 1745#31745

Hello, CFT.

I don't think Tempest's post does describe what phasing is or how you do it? :?

I saw the other post, and I cannot think of any image to grab onto, I am no visual/third eye type. In energy work I mostly use direct internal sensation, and I cannot make sense of your post at all - there seems to be no method I can from my point of view or practise can understand - like a foreign language. Where do these images come from, and what is making them "real" instead of fantasy?

Thanks,
Oliver

Ok, I'll try to be more methodical:
When in meditation OBE practice, phasing is the type of projection that Monroe came to use instead of the traditional separation-OBE.
What you do is you sit/lie down with your eyes closed, and go into trance. You basically go into what is called a 'noticing' state. You sit there, and stare at the blackness or pinkness (depending on your surroundings and light levels.) At some point you will notice some depth in what you see, as if the 'space' in front of you has expanded. You will of course see the blobby things you always see, and at some point, you will either see hypnagogics, and then is when the fun begins.
As you know, when you get hypnagogics the visions just fly by, streaming endlessly. At some point, if you don't get excited or get 'sucked into a dream' which is very easy to do (i.e. go to sleep, :) ) The visuals should begin to slow down until you can actually focus into one of the scenes. At this point things are different for everyone, but this is how it generally happens to phasers:
There will be a scene in the dark, you will see a 'point of light'- when you focus on it you will either see a door open, or a scene develop- then you will be 'in the scene', and will become part of the scene. This is considered a direct AP.
Another scenario, the one that has happened to me: I am in front of a vision screen, it is sort of like the snow you see on a television that is between signals, Then the 'snow' will begin to coalesce, or pixillate into a scene that becomes more and more sharp. As the resolution improves, there is a sense of movement, a sense of being 'sucked into the scene'. There is a sense of 'moving into the scene, but there is no energy body to speak of. You're a point of consciousness.
Another scenario: (That I've experienced, only once, though): I'm staring at nothing, then all of a sudden I'm in a room (looking at it, not in it). I focus on stairs or a door, then there is a feeling of being 'sucked into the room', I fly up the stairs into the door, and through it, and I'm on an astral locale. Once again, there is a sense of movement, of 'falling into' the scene, and 'moving into it'. The scene itself is a sort of portal into the experience, not just the experience itself.

As techniques go, phasing is easier than traditional OBE in the sense of the only thing you have to do is 'notice' and not fall asleep. (There is no need for exit sensations, vibrations or exit techniques) yet for me, OBE is easier, since I've been doing it that way for long. But it could be a matter of habit.

I hope that illustrated it for you.

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

At some point you will notice some depth in what you see, as if the 'space' in front of you has expanded.

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In the moments right between waking and falling asleep, it seems to me always like the darkness expands and is vast and more spaceous, is that what you mean?

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

You will of course see the blobby things you always see, and at some point, you will either see hypnagogics, and then is when the fun begins.

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What do they look like? Images? Beyond the darkness for me always was blankness and sleep.

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

As you know, when you get hypnagogics the visions just fly by, streaming endlessly. At some point, if you don't get excited or get 'sucked into a dream' which is very easy to do (i.e. go to sleep, :) )

---

There seem to be no visions before sleep, I think. It's just blanking out and no more I can think of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

The visuals should begin to slow down until you can actually focus into one of the scenes. At this point things are different for everyone, but this is how it generally happens to phasers:
There will be a scene in the dark, you will see a 'point of light'- when you focus on it you will either see a door open, or a scene develop- then you will be 'in the scene', and will become part of the scene. This is considered a direct AP.
Another scenario, the one that has happened to me: I am in front of a vision screen, it is sort of like the snow you see on a television that is between signals, Then the 'snow' will begin to coalesce, or pixillate into a scene that becomes more and more sharp. As the resolution improves, there is a sense of movement, a sense of being 'sucked into the scene'. There is a sense of 'moving into the scene, but there is no energy body to speak of. You're a point of consciousness.
Another scenario: (That I've experienced, only once, though): I'm staring at nothing, then all of a sudden I'm in a room (looking at it, not in it). I focus on stairs or a door, then there is a feeling of being 'sucked into the room', I fly up the stairs into the door, and through it, and I'm on an astral locale. Once again, there is a sense of movement, of 'falling into' the scene, and 'moving into it'. The scene itself is a sort of portal into the experience, not just the experience itself.

---

This is very nice and detailed, CFT, thank you.

I still do not understand the point you mentioned after the darkness expands, though, and I guess I have to look out for it. I'm not entirely sure this matches up with trance experiences I had, but maybe I try out Focus 12 again, I guess it had this sense of expansion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

As techniques go, phasing is easier than traditional OBE in the sense of the only thing you have to do is 'notice' and not fall asleep.

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Maybe I'm just missing the right point and fall asleep to fast at a certain point. When the darkness expands I'm a bit like "It's about time, let's get this over with and sleep" :)

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Originally Posted by CFTraveler

I hope that illustrated it for you.

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Thanks, you have been most helpful.

Oliver

Korpo wrote:

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In the moments right between waking and falling asleep, it seems to me always like the darkness expands and is vast and more spaceous, is that what you mean?

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Yes. It's also known as "3-D blackness"
Korpo wrote:

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What do they look like? Images? Beyond the darkness for me always was blankness and sleep.

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At first, shapeless and moving blobs, that flow and change, like the blobs on a lava lamp. Kind of.

If you can stay awake, you'll start to see images like a TV screen. They fly by so fast that you can find yourself realizing you were looking at something that is no longer there. Kind of like a memory that happened half a second before.
The trick with projecting (of any type) is to stay awake while your body goes to sleep.
The tendency to fall asleep before the sights (and sounds, I forgot to mention the sounds) are the reason I don't recommend trying to project from your bed, unless you don't have another place to do it or are a natural projector and have been doing it periodically, spontaneously.
I personally do it in the early mornings in a recliner.

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In the moments right between waking and falling asleep, it seems to me always like the darkness expands and is vast and more spaceous, is that what you mean?

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Probably Focus 12 - expanded awareness. IMO if you are experiencing 3D blackness, you're in the astral. You've already phased. Others might disagree, but it's not that important. At that point, look for anything that looks like a vortex, tunnel, or a crack in the darkness. As soon as I spot one, without even trying, I fall into it and land God knows where in the astral. :D

There are a lot of ways to phase. CF does what works for her, others do what works for them. All we can do is give you suggestions. When it happens, you'll know what it is. Until then, it's just theory for you.

So, here's what I do. I almost always go for the traditional OBE...go into trance, feel my body start going to sleep, once there, or almost there, I try OBE exit techniques...rope mostly. Ladders, skiing out, rolling over...really anything that you can think of to get out. Robert recommends sitting in a chair to trance, because we are so ingrained with the idea of gravity, sitting makes it easier to fall forward to get out of your body. By fall, I mean your energy body falling, not your physical body. That could hurt. :D

Ok, so back to phasing. When none of those things work, I try the whirly thing where you whirl your energy body out the top of your head. Problem is, I sometimes get pain. It feels like my energy body is banging up against my skull. Probably blocked crown chakra. After doing all this for about an hour (including the original trance), I either just click out and end up conscious in the astral, or I click out and don't remember anything. It's like my energy body gives up and goes one way or the other. Some of my greatest experiences have been done like this. It's not an intentional phase, but it's considered phasing because I've missed the exit...haven't downloaded the exit memory.

Other techniques, like CF said, while in trance, just wait for something weird to happen, literally anything. Then, just observe it. It can morph, it can suck you in, it can make you feel like you're moving really fast, sometimes it feels like swimming or flying. But, it's a very distinct feeling. It's nothing like a dream. Well, it's not like any dreams I've ever had, and being in my 50's, I've had a lot of dreams to compare it to. Once you've actually OBE'd or practiced a lot, you might find yourself waking up in the middle of the night with vibrations, so go with it. That's really the key to all of this. Go with anything that's not quite normal. Like hitching a ride down a stream on a leaf. Let it take you, don't force it.

Speaking of forcing it...there is one way to force an experience, in my experience. Fake it 'till you make it. Relax, trance, wait for the body asleep feeling. If you give up, nothing's going to happen. I've gone as much as an hour and a half of trancing and relaxing before anything astral happened. So, here's my little hypnotherapy secret. Start walking in your head. You don't have to see anything or have any visual experiences. Just feel yourself walking. Now, start making things up. Yes, I said, "Make it up". Imagine yourself on a pathway. Imagine a forest you're walking towards. Imagine anything that keeps you moving. Start planting things in that imagined scene. Oh, there's a bush over there, oh, is that a garden over there? Look, I think I see a house up ahead. Keep making stuff up. You're going to feel really stupid, trust me. But, just do it. Get deeper and deeper into it. Maybe there's a storyline. Maybe somebody you know shows up. Any single itty bitty thing that you can think of, add to the picture. Add sensations, sounds, whatever. Keep doing it. Not every time, but eventually, you're going to discover the thing takes on a life of it's own. You're no longer making it up, it's happening to you. Really cool when you suddenly realize that things are happening you didn't plan. You've got to be patient. And, you've got to stay awake. You're in the astral. It's a big place, and anything can happen. Literally. Anything. You're phasing. :D

Frank, an old moderator from Astral Pulse wrote a good piece on phasing that might help you. He's more nuts and bolts and I'm more woowoo. Here's the link: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welco ... 413.0.html

Did I mention the Salt timer? Could work for click outs. http://www.saltcube.com/timer.html

Thanks, CFT, thanks Tempest! 8)

Now I understand much better. In one of the books I've read there was a similar exit technique, I did not understand, it was either one of Robert's or Buhlman...

If I understand you correctly, these technique always leads to the astral, yes? Is the exit sensation kind of OBE required to go to the RTZ, or did I get you wrong?

This has been extremely interesting and marvellous, as it helped me make sense of some things I experience, so I thank you both. :)

Oliver

Well, here's my current thinking. Which is always open to change. I think that everything that happens is real. It's all consciousness. Every dream, every daydream, every thought is happening in the astral. You just aren't aware of it, because we agreed to shutting down our full-on consciousness when we decided to incarnate. If we had all of our consciousness available to us while here, we would be experiencing telepathy, we wouldn't be afraid of death, we wouldn't do half the physical things we do, because it would seem almost irrelevant. For us to get the most out of this physical experience, we had to close down a large portion of our consciousness for it to work the way it was intended. We wanted the physical experience, and we got it.

I've never heard anyone else say this, and I have no idea why it occurred to me, but it's ringing truer and truer with me all the time. I think that people who are interested in astral travel, in psychokinesis, telepathy, mystics, psychics, etc. are very close to the end of their reincarnational cycle in the earth system. They have recognized that there is more to us than what we wear, how much money we make, where we live, how great of a job we have, etc. They are opening to more of their larger consciousness. Enlightenment, becoming awake, call it what you will. Most think it has a lot to do with things like 2012 or some new system coming about on earth. I think it's much larger than that. This earth is temporary...no two ways about it. Whatever happens here is going to wind up just a collection of experiences. There is nothing "earth shaking" about that. How big of a deal is your 9th birthday to you now? Probably not much. I think that's what earth life will soon be like to us.

How does that pertain to the astral? Well, the astral is a vibration of consciousness. It's where we really are. We're just projecting these physical, human experiences from there. So, any time you use your consciousness, which is about 100% of the time, "you" are in the astral and working your body like a puppet on a string. But, as you are projecting your real self (consciousness), you project less and less of that consciousness into the physical. That's why we're not so aware. When you start waking up to the greater you, what you are in fact doing, is projecting more and more of your consciousness to your physical body. So, you become aware of more of what's happening in the astral.

I do hypnotherapy. I used to think that it is a tapping into your subconscious. Now, I think what's really happening is that you are tapping into your real consciousness. We've got it backwards. Our physical life is the one that's subconscous. So, dreaming, phasing, OBE'ing, trance states, hypnosis, meditation, day-dreaming...literally anything that you do that seems different from normal, waking consciousness, is really opening up to your real consciousness. How aware you are of it has to do with how much you've opened up to it. A full-on OBE puts you a little closer than say, a light trance, or a daydream. But, not by much. You still don't have full awareness, just a peek. The closest thing I've ever come to full awareness, or that I've ever heard anyone else say, is the experience of being God, with a complete awareness of everything that's happening. Even at that, I think it's just a snapshot, and far from the full Monty. :D

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If I understand you correctly, these technique always leads to the astral, yes? Is the exit sensation kind of OBE required to go to the RTZ, or did I get you wrong?

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I hope I just answered your first question. I don't know the answer to the second. I don't know of hardly anyone who has maintained the razor-sharp control needed to get into the RTZ. Robert Bruce has, and has verified it for himself. He talks about seeing a car wreck during the day while OBE'ing, and saw the same thing on the news that night. I think that people who are really good at remote viewing are in the RTZ. Skip Atwater is one. You can goggle his name if you're interested.

The difference between the RTZ and the astral is that someone in the RTZ while in an altered state of consciousness is seeing actual physical experiences. Anything besides that, is the astral. Or, for those who believe in different planes...there's the Mental, Buddhic,, Atmic, and God knows what else plane. The astal has a way of becoming whatever you think it is. People call it "reality fluctuations". I think that's one reason that psychics aren't 100% accurate. They might be getting their information from somewhere in the astral, and depending on where it's coming from, it's going to have reality fluctuations.

I think we should stickify this thread right under the other one with the focus levels.

Oh, as others I am very interested in the RTZ, as it is the only place you can verifiably train your perception. Each reality fluctuation could be nothing more than a distortion in our awareness.

I've read into the posts linked here about phasing on the external site. It seems this guy has access to the RTZ with his phasing as well.

Well it is getting very metaphysical and theoretical, Tempest, I guess the reason why we are here on Earth is that we can integrate what it means to be human into our being, experiences that are unattainable otherwise. Our limited time/space illusion, as Monroe likes to call it in his books, is an extraordinary way to learn, but which role OBE plays in this I do not know. Perhaps it is the reintegration stage, where we start to learn how to function as humans and astral entities at the same time. This process culminates at enlightenment, and then other processes begin, here or wherever. This is what I think about it.

Oliver

CF said:

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I think we should stickify this thread right under the other one with the focus levels.

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Well, you've got the sticky button. :D Of course, when everything we've said has been proven wrong, we'll have to unsticky it. :lol:

Korpo said:

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Our limited time/space illusion, as Monroe likes to call it in his books, is an extraordinary way to learn, but which role OBE plays in this I do not know.

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It's funny you said that. I've been studying metaphysics for 15, 16 or so years now. Up until the last couple of years, I always thought, eh, astral traveling, who cares. Most of my metaphysical friends still think that. Now, I think it's a big step on the progression of understanding the karmic cycle and how to evolve past it. You see the bigger picture and recognize that while earth is a beautiful place, it's just one of the infinite number of sideroads we can take.

Tempest-

Hehe as I was writing my last post, I anticipated your response about "going with the projection reflex no matter what" but I forgot to include my caveat... that at the time I experienced the reflex, I was not awake enough to recognize it for what it was and only experienced abject terror thinking I was dying. Another time I did experience a reflex while awake that was intentional but my excitement, I believe, caused it to abort even though I was 100% committed to the reflex. Everything was roaring, moving, engines go... and then .. nothing. I just woke up.

I guess it wasn't so much about being overwhelmed by the dynamics of the experience itself, as recognizing that taking on this aspect of my life was a serious step and that I'd do well to learn the basic core skills. I don't expect that energy work will shortcut the projection experience any, but I felt like I had taken such a HYUUUUGE step that it would be worth my while to make sure I was wearing sturdy shoes, ya know? I've got a really bad habit of approaching things without putting in the discipline and commitment... as a violinist I hated spending times on scales and arpeggios but they are the technical bread and butter of any good musician and shouldn't be neglected. My efforts in the land of lucid dreaming also indicated to me that I wasn't running at full capacity... I'd try to effect a shift and struggle to maintain lucidity through the shift. After experiencing the big "WHOAH!" of a reflex, I guess I just wanted to focus on the basics for awhile... and while I know I'm sounding way too systematic lately, trust me... this is good for me right now, because I have never been a systematic person and this has been a good exploration in discipline for me. I'm stopping to smell the flowers, as it were.... everyone is different, and for me this a process that I am going through slowly because I have a hard time accepting it and adapting to it otherwise. I'm a cowherder, not an adventurer. :D But you are a big inspiration to me and a reminder that it's ok to be creative and not get stuck in a rut if one of the nuts and bolts proves too challenging.

Being stuck in the Monroe box is more about the lack of instructions than anything, lol... so in that regard I really appreciate the input, knowing that the TMI isn't going to be quizzing me on the exact wording of the affirmation later, lol. But listening to the tracks with little familiarity to the terms and processes can be a bit confusing in just one pass, so I've been trying to get familiar with it by going back over the tracks.

Re: click outs... if you always get out on a click out, are you snapping immediately back in when you wake? See, I'm basically clicking from instruction to instruction, or missing instructions entirely, I just figured I was falling asleep. It just seems too in /out to be much of anything. I'm not trying to OBE traditionally or otherwise right now, so anything happening is just incidental. And yep I'm aware of Monroe's phasing and am very interested in phasing :D I think I'd take to it pretty well as it takes almost no time at all for me to pull up hypnagogics / scenes in a half awake state, the trick is just for me to not fall asleep. Not long ago, I was listening to Focus 10 and became aware of looking at the inside of a train carriage... then I felt this great motion forward like I was thrown INTO the train carriage, and there I was riding in the train. Something else woke me up, but I felt like I was in the right vicinity, ya know? The latest phenomenon for me is light... I become aware of either flashing lights, like a brow strobe, or car headlights driving by, or this sensation like I have my eyes closed and a lamp is on nearby, and I "open my eyes" and become visually aware of a lamp lighting a cozy (nonphysical) room. Phasing's probably right up my alley. :D

And NOW TO END THE POST with some good news!! Or at least, some "almost" good news, lol... because I ultimately wimped out. And the timing of it, with the thread topic and all, is pretty striking to me.

Last night after a Focus 10 exercise, I moved on to Intro to Focus 12 for the first time. It wasn't the most telling session... I was feeling unnerved and a bit spooked, like I couldn't quite get into the session without feeling as if someone were in the room with me. I thought about how that "someone's there" feeling could relate back to sensing your astral double and jokingly thought to myself "I'd better not be messing around out there!" Well, I clicked out for about 3/4ths of Focus 12 and don't remember anything after "And I'll join you in Focus 10." I came to as he was closing the session, after which I got up out of my armchair and went to bed.

It seemed to take me a long time to actually fall fully asleep, like a part of my mind was awake for a really long time before following the rest of my mind down, but not a part I was very aware of. As far as 95% of me was concerned, I was instantly unconscious and ready for a full night's rest.

The next thing I was aware of... after that small piece of my mind seemed to spend a long time in a very introspective, cozy dark "Focus 10-ish" mode, it was like, I was looking at a part of my dark bedroom. But it's not right to say I was looking at it.. it's more like I just became aware of it. An astral awareness, as if looking at these two pieces of my dark bedroom from the end of a long tunnel and seeing these pieces as my destination.

Then ... the projection reflex started !! And this brought me awake and I'm delighted to say that this process of coming awake did NOT disturb the reflex. I was ALSO delighted to be so aware of what was going on, to be able to dispassionately observe the sensations.

My first observation was to notice how different it felt from my last terrifying "wake up into reflex" experience... this time it didn't feel as chaotic and overwhelming. The sensation was that of an engine loudly idling... and in regular intervals, this engine would REV two or three times.. and on each rev, a delightful but powerful vibration would purr up my body along the spine in tandem with this noise.... brrrrrrrmmmmmVROOOOM!!! VROOOM!!!brmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmVROOM!!!! VROOM!!!!! ... this engine was ready to GO. Things were just humming and purring MUCH smoother than the last experience, which was really a heartening testament to all the energy work I've been doing in the past year. There was just so much more harmony in these energetic sensations than I was accustomed to; there seemed to be a real pattern to the revolutions as it built up to an inevitable conclusion. It was an extremely fascinating process energetically to experience and I have to frankly say that it even felt really good, if dynamic. And I knew with 100% certainty that I could do this, that if I saw it through that I would OBE, that this was a successful reflex revving up that would blast me right out. But ... man, I'm afraid that the spookiness of the night just wore on me and I couldn't stomach the idea of having a first consciously induced projection into that unknown darkness and would preferred experiencing this in the daytime. Yep I totally wimped out. Just too visceral, like I was being dragged into an experience rather than directing it. If you're swimming in dark water and something snatches your ankle and starts to drag you under, even though you KNOW everything will be fine, your instincts fight and tell you stay at the surface rather than get dragged below into the dark. So I stopped the reflex and came fully awake, I'm afraid, which may hinder me later... but that's a pretty good side effect of the Focus 12 exercise, I'd have to say... and just the experience of being fully conscious and observing the reflex was well worth the price of admission! Yay!

Hello, stargazer.

I think you are doing perfectly fine. Working through fear cannot be rushed, and you are learning your ropes so very well, I think.

While I do not want to "project" my fear on you, I just say that when you trigger the projection you should feel as comfortable as can be about it, especially at first, then nothing you encounter can unnerve you. I do not think fear is there without reason, it always signifies something. If you chose the right environment, the right time and minimise fear I guess the experience will be even more enjoyable. I'm a proponent for daytime projecting as well, and RB and others seem to agree that it makes the stuff easier.

But as I read your post I see that is exactly what you seem to do, so I'm just agreeing to you, perhaps for a little support, and not telling you anything new anyhow. It's nice to see you are making such great progress in so little time - I feel pretty much "overtaken" by you now. Damn! :lol:

I am also a sucker for systematic and have to struggle with doing the "boring stuff", as I had to when learning to play the guitar or doing the energy work I now focus on. It is frustrating at first, sometimes boring, but it pays off to no end. When you reach harvest time, being systematic and persisting in overcoming inertia will take you anywhere.

Go at your own pace, you seem to know it very well.

Take good care and wish you the best,
Oliver

P.S.: Why don't you project out of a lucid dream? You seem to have a good grasp of that. :)

Oliver,

Thank you, thank you, thank you, you are ever so kind and supportive... which I suppose we all SHOULD be with our fellows' spiritual endeavors... but I thank you so much for the support anyhow, it's much appreciated... your encouragement has really helped me want to move forward.

I have attempted to project out of a lucid dream before and most of my attempts have either caused myself to get stuck or simply moved into a different dream scenario... Saltcube's Matthew is an excellent lucid dreamer and we've discussed LD projections before and tried several different techniques for transitioning, including jumping off of cliffs, climbing through mirrors, windows or doors, spinning, falling, willing it to happen, etc.

I had an interesting attempt with a mirror that I detailed awhile back in the dreaming threads... I turned it into a window and deliberately caused a scenario to appear that I could climb into.. the scenarios kept quickly changing however, from day to night in different locales like a screensaver, and I picked a likeable day scenario and climbed through to it... I found myself stuck waist deep in the mirror in a 3-D darkness while my scenario was still flat and far away, and though I tried climbing all the way through, only ended up waking up. Matthew has said that most times while going through a door or window in a LD he finds himself wrapped up in a coccoon of sorts.. he fights with the coccoon for a bit and then finds himself awake in his astral body, in the astral. Another window/mirror attempt found me wrapped up in that coccoon and I was too much at peace, didn't fight the coccoon and drifted back deeper into sleep, which I have never done before during an LD (Most LD's result in waking).

Falling backwards only caused a somewhat lucid dream to become a very lucid dream for me, but there was a definite shift in the scenario. I have not yet tried falling forwards, because the one time I was lucid and thought about trying it, I was already in the RTZ (or approximation thereof) and didn't quite realize it at the time. I had climbed over a short ledge and when I did, found myself climbing over the ledge in my living room to my kitchen. I did not recognize it as my kitchen at the time and had to put together the details later... I stood for awhile and watched the sun come up, feeling "blurry" spots in my legs that I took to be blockages or areas "out of phase" with my current state. This was another indication to me that I had more energy work to do, as the kind of shift I was trying to effect seemed to require more energy. My orientation was really funny in that experience too, as I thought I was in a house whose backyard was facing west... but afterall I was watching the sun rise in the windows!! (which face southeast)

Spinning was interesting but didn't do much; it kinda sharpened my lucidity but caused no shifts. The same with willing it to happen.

I have not yet tried jumping off a cliff, but the imagined speed / impact is apparently enough to jar your astral body out and awake and you usually find yourself standing in your bedroom, apparently.

The thing about lucid dreaming for me is that they come in fits and starts and only when I'm really willing them to manifest, which I haven't lately.. the focus lately has been on learning trance state and energy work. I also have to be well rested, which most of the time I'm not, hehe. But I love lucid dreaming, and some of my lucid experiences have been so breathtaking that I have smelled fragrances (supposedly impossible in dreams, I hear ?) and felt pain.

It's all about where your focus is at, and since I haven't been OBE!OBE!OBE! girl lately, I haven't been LDing as much. :D

Hello, Andrea.

I see you are very creative and maybe playful in what you re doing, and I think it will help you later on to no end. Whenever you get the ingredients together just at the right time, be it tomorrow or in a month. Though I suspect you are getting things in line for some time now, and if it happens at the right time it might just happen.

Tempest is absolutely right about one thing - okay, about a lot of things, but I want to focus on one now! ;) - that chosing not to project or breaking off attempts builds a block of fear. Some encourage to project regardless and overcome this fear that way. RB suggests this, but RB suggests as well that if you cannot overcome fear you are just not ready to project, as the OBE environment is very susceptible to this. This is both in the concluding chapters of AD, which I reread just yesterday because of this.

So I am trying to work with my fear, emotions and energies lately, and it is not easy, I say! :) This block is definitely there, and it serves a purpose for me. It prevents me from entering a situation I'm not quite ready to handle. As I obtain the capability to work through my fears I will get the ability to work through that block as well, but now it forsakes me a lot of attempts that came close. It blocks off a lot of avenues I have travelled almost to conclusion to OBE - the 3D blackness for phasing (I felt it had something to do with OBE!), spontaneous exit sensations at night, Monroe tape effects. These issues keep resurfacing for me, and they cannot be simply overcome by "just doing it", as they root in deeper fears, so I'm back to the drawing board and doing my work again until I finally got a grip on those deeper issues as well.

But there is a small lesson in this as well - if you get a day or part of day where you feel very confident and like "Let's do this", then take your headphones and try to win through! And all other times, just hone your skills and you will have them when you need them. When fears become unfounded the underlying interconnectedness of issues resolves, and you will be able to see your OBE attempts separate from other fears, but I think it needs a good launchpad. After that OBE should become relatively unproblematic, and you can focus again on other issues.

Besides, Kudos! to what you did with lucid dreams already. It sounds marvellous.

Take good care,
Oliver

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Originally Posted by Tempestinateapot

CF said:

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I think we should stickify this thread right under the other one with the focus levels.

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Well, you've got the sticky button. :D Of course, when everything we've said has been proven wrong, we'll have to unsticky it. :lol:

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Well at this point I'm rethinking it, since it has so many other things. If I split it and stickify it still has other stuff that is coherent to the first part of the post and maybe it'd be annoying.
I'll think about it some more, or maybe I'll copy the 'how to parts' and sticky them.
It's handy to have 'instructions', even if they don't work for everybody.

Sorry, CFT, if we "ruined" the thread with our "personal stuff". :lol:

:wink:

Oliver

:P

I just copied and pasted together a how-to phase and stickified it.
I hope it seems coherent.
:lol:

Good enough for me - a good solution. :)

Oliver

Stargazer said:

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Being stuck in the Monroe box is more about the lack of instructions than anything, lol

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Ain't it the truth? When I went to TMI, the most frustrating thing all week was to keep my big mouth shut. People kept asking questions that Robert Bruce answers in his books and tutorials. The trainers would just smile and say, "What do you think it was?" They aren't big on explaining things, because they want people to have their own experience and interpret it. But, people were saying things like, "it felt like something dark and scary was sitting on my chest, and I panicked." Hello!! Dweller on the Threshold phenomenom. Instead they got the "what do you think it was" and enigmatic smile. :roll:

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Re: click outs... if you always get out on a click out, are you snapping immediately back in when you wake?

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I'm not sure I understand the question. "Getting out" is a term that's not quite accurate. We're talking about consciousness here. You don't actually get out of your body or consciousness. You are shifting your attention. That's what phasing is in a nutshell...shifting your attention. I think that the reason we interpret getting out with the physical action is because it feels that way because we are so ingrained with physicality. We are making assumptions based on the human experience, where the actual reality is that we don't "go" anywhere. It feels like we are going out of our body because that's what we expect...whether we actually have that thought or not. I think it's a collective conscious experience based on our grounding to the physical.

So, I think you were asking if after a click out, when we become aware, are we in the astral? It would depend. You could be, or you could be just back in your body and consciously awake. Again, "back in your body" is actually just a human perception and not what's really happening. If you get up and stub your toe, and it hurts, I'd say you are most likely in the physical world. :D

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It seemed to take me a long time to actually fall fully asleep, like a part of my mind was awake for a really long time before following the rest of my mind down, but not a part I was very aware of.

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Welcome to the world of bi-location! It can get really, really strange.

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I was being dragged into an experience rather than directing it. If you're swimming in dark water and something snatches your ankle and starts to drag you under

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Yeh, I know the feeling. Same thing happened to me with Kundalini. I kept shutting it down out of fear. I finally said, what the heck, I can't die anyway, I'm an immortal soul, and had a great experience.

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just the experience of being fully conscious and observing the reflex was well worth the price of admission!

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You go, girl!! :wink:

Korpo said:

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Working through fear cannot be rushed

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Well, sometimes you have to deal with it when it comes up. Especially when those exit sensations creep up on you in the middle of the night. I'd call it working through fear while it's happening. And, the more you practice trance, do energy work, and study about OBE, the more your energy body seems to take over and start doing the driving. I think the no. 1 thing you can do is to study up on what to expect. So many experiences are common to almost everyone, that if you know about them ahead of time, the less afraid you will be.

Stargazer said:

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But I love lucid dreaming, and some of my lucid experiences have been so breathtaking that I have smelled fragrances (supposedly impossible in dreams, I hear ?) and felt pain.

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Ok, maybe I'm the only one in the world who believes this, but you are OBE'ing, and from the sound of it, you have been for quite awhile. When you are lucid in a dream, and you're trying to jump or fall through a mirror, all you are doing is trying to get from one place in the astral to another. You're not trying to OBE from a lucid dream...you are out of body. I remember someone once asked Robert Bruce about lucid dreaming vs. OBE'ing and his response was something like, "Is there really a difference?" So, I'm totally guessing here, so don't quote me, but I think Robert might have changed some thinking since his first book. Maybe he's addressed some of that in his updated AD book, or in his new energy book. Or, I could just be Ms. Bats in the Belfry and imagined it all. :D

Korpo said:

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Tempest is absolutely right about one thing - okay, about a lot of things

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Oh, God, don't say that! I'm already in enough trouble every time I open my mouth and someone thinks it's written in stone. Please read my signature. :shock:

Korpo said:

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So I am trying to work with my fear, emotions and energies lately, and it is not easy

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I haven't yet met a person who has OBE'd and hasn't had some fear at different times while "out". I've certainly had my share of it. Fear begets fear. Maybe just going with it, expecting a little fear, and dealing with it as it comes up is an easier way? "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Since this discussion on click-outs started, I've discovered that if I take a half hour or so immediately before starting Hemi Sync and work at NEW, I'm energised and don't click-out.

Hello,

II hope that I am not intruding into the discussion. I would like to tell some of my experiences and thoughts that are related to the subject. I hope that they are of some help.

I have been parctising New some time ago and after a period I gave up because I found it to hard to continue. In the same time I was listening to Monroe tapes and had one or two experinces which freaked me out. Thinking back I was about to project. I did whatever I could to stop them and I did. I dropped the hemisyinc tapes for a while and listened to some other meditation tapes. After a while I decided to start them again and I listen to them every day.
It was a time when I wanted so much to OBE and I did whatever I could to have at least one experience. I even got frustrated and very angry because nothing happened. Seemed that the more I tried the more I was shutting down. Then I cooled down and decided to start again to listen to hemysinc and go very slowly though the process. So I did for about three or four month. I am not expecting anything because when I am expecting NOTHING is happening. I tried to use also prases that would programme my subconscious and it's not working at all, it's the opposite.
I have realised that I am progressing slowly. Unusual things are happening from time to time. The most interesting things started to happen in focus 12 on Wave III. There is a track with five questions. After the counting into focus 12 and entering on F 12 I suddently felt a shift , or at least something happened. Suddently I became extremely lucid and different. Monroe poses some questions. At the one with Who am I the reply was always a smooth vibration in my legs. For the other three questions nothing but at the last one at which you have to ask What is the most impoartant thing that you have to know I have received two answers in two sessions. If you read " Conversations with god" there is an affirmation in which he sais that the soul is not in the body, but it envelopes the body. I really felt it, that my soul was enveloping the body, and it was a wonderfull sensation. On an other session I felt very relaxed and the material world seemed so far away , I only existed and nothing else and It was so wonderfull.
Now, when I put my helmeths on and I close my eyes in a few seconds I feel some sort of a shift, something is happening. Also when I close my eyes and try to relax I fell that something is happening. I am not good at describing the phenomen, maybe I am going deep.
The funny thing is that interesting things are starting to manifest also in the real life. I sometimes have a sensation of unreal and weird related to the material world. It lasts only a moment but it's there.
If I do not force things that I want, they are happening at the right time.
I am still doing from time to time energy work with my legs, arms and my body. The feeling of energy moving and energy in general is much stronger, and I can do it quite easily. Also when I sit and and stay still I can feel very smooth vibrations in my body, especially in my feet and also energy movements in my body. The feeling is quite natural and not scaring at all.
The dreams have changed in that I am partially conscious. The smell, taste, touch senses have developed in my dreams and they are pretty strong.
One morning I felt the reintegration of the astral doucble. I was dreaming and waking up from the dream when I felt a slam into me. Then I knew it was the reintegration.
So my personal conclusion and what works for me is that I do not have to force anything and do not expect anything but to let things develop on their own and the results will come when the time is right.

All the best to everybody,

Lia

Hello, Lia.

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Originally Posted by new baby

Now, when I put my helmeths on and I close my eyes in a few seconds I feel some sort of a shift, something is happening. Also when I close my eyes and try to relax I fell that something is happening. I am not good at describing the phenomen, maybe I am going deep.

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When the people at the Monroe Institute describe how to get into the states reliably after entraining for some time they recommend to remember how the state felt. A sudden shift or change will happen, some people describe it as a click and some do not. ;) For me such changes are sudden - I realise afterward that they happened. From my experience what you are experiencing are quick shifts into the Focus states you entrained so well.

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Originally Posted by new baby

One morning I felt the reintegration of the astral doucble. I was dreaming and waking up from the dream when I felt a slam into me. Then I knew it was the reintegration.

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It took me some time to realise what it was. I had woken a bit earlier and felt a presence which frightened me, then I experienced a mind split and it slammed into me. Weird sensation, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by new baby

If you read " Conversations with god" there is an affirmation in which he sais that the soul is not in the body, but it envelopes the body. I really felt it, that my soul was enveloping the body, and it was a wonderfull sensation.

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Quite possibly you had switched your main focus primarily in what Monroe calls the second body, or others the etheric body. It envelops the physical body and is said to be the source of its life force. It exists in the same space as the physical body, but is softer, subtler, finer and bigger.

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Originally Posted by new baby

On an other session I felt very relaxed and the material world seemed so far away , I only existed and nothing else and It was so wonderfull.

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Seems like a comparatively deep trance. Sensory input is put into the background and your awareness relaxes. The physical world is still there, but I don't care and let it be at the fringes of my perception. A wonderful state, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by new baby

So my personal conclusion and what works for me is that I do not have to force anything and do not expect anything but to let things develop on their own and the results will come when the time is right.

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I agree most strongly. Letting go of expectations and allowing your inner nature into your life can indeed lead to good and steady progress, especially in people tense in body and mind. Instead of overcontrolling and therefore preventing the experience, the experience unfolds itself when you "let it happen". You said it most wonderfully. :D

Take good care,
Oliver

Korpo, I didn't experienced the mind split, only the slam.
Maybe I was in the second body, it did feel much larger than the physical one.

I do not remember which of you said about those that in this life are very interested in paranormal, metaphysics and other things will end the reincarnation cycle soon. I have the same feeling.

A nice weekend for all of you.