A working theory on AP/OBE/NDE and the afterlife

Hey all,

I've been a lucid dreamer since an early age, about 4 years old I was having a recurring nightmare, which led me to discover the ability all by myself. I didn't learn it was called lucid dreaming until much later in life. After learning it was called lucid dreaming, I soon discovered astral projection and spent many years practicing that.

I've always felt that reality is an illusion, like something is not quite right, like something is missing or out of place, it has just never felt solid or real to me. The only thing that ever felt real was my self, not my physical body but my self inside, which made me always question everything. When you are constantly questioning reality like this, it's like performing a reality check all the time. It increased my level of awareness at all times and as a result I have lucid dreams regularly and naturally.

Anyway, to get to the theory...

In my opinion, there are many words used to describe the term astral. They basically all reference same thing, and the astral IS the afterlife, it IS heaven and hell, but you are the one who navigates through it.

Astral = aether, aetheric, aethereal, energy, energetic, psi, psionic, psychic, prana, pranic, quantum, qi, chi, ki, spirit, spiritual.... The list goes on and on. Each of these words describe same thing... An invisible force which we can tap into consciously, a place we transition to, pass on to when we die, or when we project into it.

It's written in books like the Tibetan book of the dead. Often the deceased will start on the 'bardo' where all their worst fears come to life (like hell right?) but if they can get past it, will move on to higher planes (more like heaven). The bardo in christian literature is called Limbo. NDE literature and accounts of OBE all point to it. The experience is both subjective and objective, often in NDE's the person will float out of their body and transition on, pass on to another place, where their beliefs shape what they experience. We also release DMT (the spirit molecule) from our pineal gland (third eye) when we are born, when we die, and each night we sleep which is further evidence of this. And my own personal experiences and research suggests this to be true and correct.

My theory as well, is that we keep ending up back here in a new body, reincarnating over and over again, not so much because of karma, but because we can't handle it well enough on the other side. If you die on the other side you end up here, die here and you end up there. Back and forth we go, across the veil of two worlds or states of being, until one day we can learn to stay on one side, or maybe even both at same time. On the other side, it can be more vibrant, vivid and more real than this side. Time over there is more fluid and malleable, hours can pass in just a few seconds compared to here, we move through time differently over there like in a dream you are just suddenly in a new scenario and skipping unnecessary parts of the experience.

I've heard enlightened masters say that when our body dies, we simply move into a new body. However, Being incarnated in a new body within the physical world means going through the process of death and rebirth, which on this side of the veil means growing up again from a baby to an adult. Science also tells us that energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed. So it all makes sense if you agree to the notion that we exist eternally as a living conscious being.

Try to think of it more in terms of subtle energy, it's everywhere and everything, very hard to detect or even become aware of. Our subtle energy body is self-automated, running in the background on optimal or minimum power so we don't usually notice or become aware of it. There are methods to increase the power level of your subtle energy body such as practicing meditation, conscious breathing (e.g. pranayama), taking substances, etc. But one has to become aware of it consciously, which is easier to do when the power level is increased.

I joined an astral projection meetup group one time, and they all spoke about it like they do it every single night. When I asked how they all do it so often, the one thing they said which helps the most, is doing pranayama breathing every night. I started practicing it, and even that same night when I tried pranayama breathing the first time, I had multiple vivid astral projection experiences.

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Originally Posted by Eonnn

Astral = aether, aetheric, aethereal, energy, energetic, psi, psionic, psychic, prana, pranic, quantum, qi, chi, ki, spirit, spiritual.... The list goes on and on. Each of these words describe same thing... An invisible force which we can tap into consciously, a place we transition to, pass on to when we die, or when we project into it.

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My private working theory is that it's not that straightforward and simple.

First, there are many frequencies. Second, there are dimensions. Within dimensions there are subdimensions, and so one. Within a single (or mix of) dimension(s) you can create a lot of different 'things' (your, and others', creations).

Your mind/soul is what gives you access to a certain 'level' or, better, 'area' of expierence.

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My theory as well, is that we keep ending up back here in a new body, reincarnating over and over again, not so much because of karma, but because we can't handle it well enough on the other side. If you die on the other side you end up here, die here and you end up there. Back and forth we go, across the veil of two worlds or states of being, until one day we can learn to stay on one side, or maybe even both at same time. On the other side, it can be more vibrant, vivid and more real than this side. Time over there is more fluid and malleable, hours can pass in just a few seconds compared to here, we move through time differently over there like in a dream you are just suddenly in a new scenario and skipping unnecessary parts of the experience.

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I guess it is so. Until you get your consciousness to be, well, more fluid or continous, or something.

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I've heard enlightened masters say that when our body dies, we simply move into a new body. However, Being incarnated in a new body within the physical world means going through the process of death and rebirth, which on this side of the veil means growing up again from a baby to an adult. Science also tells us that energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed. So it all makes sense if you agree to the notion that we exist eternally as a living conscious being.

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I wouldn't put the equation between conscious and living. People are pretty much unconscious, so they incarnate. Consciousness is what allows you deliberately to "fly away" from the "incarnational wheel", or call it "gravity power" of the Earth plane.
(Lack of consciosuness is like lack of power or energy, therefore).

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Our subtle energy body is self-automated, running in the background on optimal or minimum power so we don't usually notice or become aware of it. There are methods to increase the power level of your subtle energy body such as practicing meditation, conscious breathing (e.g. pranayama), taking substances, etc. But one has to become aware of it consciously, which is easier to do when the power level is increased.

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Breathing is important. But people believe that mechanical routine excercise would do the work. Yeah, it brings your consciousness higher because of the cosmic energy inherent in the air particles (the atmosphere is the 'heaven' related part of Earth, while water and soil are the 'earth' related).

However, I would put much more attention to something called shen, since you went into qi / prana terms. Spirit is not the same as qi (energy), spirit is also not the same as astral or soul, AFAIK.

Hi Antares,

I appreciate your reply and insights

I'm fully aware there are many dimensions with sub-dimensions, etc. I use a slightly different terminology here though, I would call them astral planes and within each plane there are realms. People often get confused between what is a dream or what is astral, to the point where they say there is no difference. This is common in particular when learning how to astral project, because it can seem so similar but when you practice it enough you start realizing the difference.

But yes, you are right on Chi/Shen/Ying however I see this more like a refining of the same basic force or underlying energy. Don't know a great deal about the system it's based on, did some martial arts back in the day - Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Qi Gong where we would meditate in Wuji stance at the end, doing a psi-ball generating type of thing and bring it into the dantien. I've read that we can develop psychic abilities (or what buddhists would call a siddhi) by refining our sexual energy into Jing, which can be refined further into Shen. Then it's just a matter of combing Chi, Jing and Shen to move mountains so to speak.

I'm just attempting to try and piece everything together, the more I look at it, the more it points to this conclusion that when we die we end up in same place as when we astral project which is quite similar to what would be a shared lucid dream where places are mutually agreed upon and consciously co-created, with living conscious intelligent beings inhabiting them.

So I posted this over at a couple of the dreaming forums, and someone replied asking a few important questions which I thought I'd share here, because it elaborates on my original post and might provoke some further discussion.

It’s well known and documented that the pineal gland releases DMT at birth, death and each night when we sleep. The only other time it releases this substance is when taking psychedlics, DMT being one of them. I would argue there are other methods of releasing DMT intentionally, such as conscious breathing techniques (e.g. wim hof method, kundalini/dragon breath, pranayama etc.) and deep meditation.

It’s also well known and documented (not in scientific literature, but historical texts - buddhist texts in particular) that the pineal gland is the location of the third eye chakra. I could go much more into depth on this regarding the shape and function of this gland, how it works in conjuction with other parts of the brain and energy system but I won’t. It would take me too long and it’s better that people do their own research if interested in knowing more about this.

DMT is often called the spirit molecule, and one reason for this is because people often report communicating with spirits while taking the substance. The experiences are very common amongst individuals taking the substance, or taking ayahuasca. They often report seeing geometric shapes and patterns, going through a tunnel - this is called ‘breaking through’ and people often say in the tunnel they have no physical body and get the sense that they are the tunnel, that their mind and body has morphed into the tunnel as they are going through it. Having ‘broken through’ to ‘the otherside’ this is where they would usually encounter spiritual beings and receive healing or learn something of deep importance. The experiences differ of course, depending on method and dosage, set and setting but many elements remain similar across multiple accounts.

Many scientists and researchers simply chalk all of it up to pure hallucination, illusion or delusion, which is extremely irresponsible and ignorant of them. It’s absolutely absurd to assume this considering so many accounts of similar aspects across accounts from multiple people. This suggests the experiences are real, because if it was just an illusion then the chances of common themes would be highly unlikely. You could say the same about NDE experiences, as many of these accounts share common similarities as well.

Furthermore, many of the prescribed medications used today in mental health are derived from experimentation with psychedelic substances, namely LSD and shamans in the amazon have known about the spiritual aspect of all this for many years. They’ve recently discovered a variation to the DMT molecule, known as 5-MeO-DMT, which many refer to as “the god particle” instead of “the spirit molecule” because when taking it, often people report an experience where they become God, they become all that is and see everything from a different perspective or vantage point, they see how everything is connected and the all is in everything, and because of this they are the all. When the trip ends, they come back to reality as themselves of course but with much greater understanding about the truth of reality.

Anyway, moving on to the questions…

“What are the implications?”
The implications are that death is not the end, and we need not fear death because we are eternal, consciousness survives death. The only thing to fear would be any pain encountered during death, but not death itself. Another thing to fear of course in my opinion, might be the bardo state if you end up there first instead of straight into a heavenly realm. One would have to face their own fears, otherwise they might just end up back in waking life as a newborn baby, having to go through the entire process again.

“How does it play out in everyday life?”
Often I try to find the meaning behind certain English words, english itself is very limiting in expression with many words meaning same thing or sounding similar. However, most words can be traced back to greek or latin origin, and some words seem to carry other meanings. For example take the word Dream:
D = Death/Dying
R = Reborn/Rebirth
E = Eternal/Ethereal
A = Always/As
M = Man/Many
Another interpretation is this: Death REborn AM
So in everyday life, each night when we sleep we are going through a process of death and rebirth, perhaps not as final as death, but remember many people use the phrases “my relative passed away” or “they passed on” so when we die we are transitioning to somewhere or becoming something else. This is where that “Energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed” comes into play.

You might then ask, what’s the difference between dreaming and astral projection?
I would suggest that when we dream, our energy body is active but we aren’t very aware of it and don’t use it to move around, instead we just stay in the same area. We project a dreamworld into our own area of space, without moving outside of that area. It’s like personally projected spatial area that we can have our own dreamworld and freedom in. Astral projection or OBE on the other hand, we become aware of the energy body, and use it to move and travel to places, the physical body being our anchor and portal, but the energetic body the vehicle for moving around. In an NDE, the physical body is technically dead and lifeless, so the energetic body has no choice but to move and travel elsewhere, and can also do this much more freely because it no longer has a tie to the physical world.

“How can we use it to improve our own life and existence”
I see it like this, we need to become lucid after death, we need to realize we are dead after dying and have enough control to be able to defend ourselves if we enter the bardo/limbo or be able to navigate to better places. It all works similar to lucid dreaming, there is a conscious aspect that drives our experience of it all, things like belief, expectation and intention all important skills not just in lucid dreaming but in astral projection and death. It could improve our own life and existence, by knowing death isn’t the end, it free’s a person up so they are not as fearful or racing against time to accomplish things. My thoughts are we are continually going back and forth across the veil, stepping between two worlds again and again, until we can either stay in one of them forever, or perhaps even move freely between the two, or have one foot in each at same time.

Sorry if this post was long, thought I’d at least explain it all in detail…

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Originally Posted by Eonnn

My thoughts are we are continually going back and forth across the veil, stepping between two worlds again and again, until we can either stay in one of them forever, or perhaps even move freely between the two, or have one foot in each at same time.

Sorry if this post was long, thought I’d at least explain it all in detail…

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Back and forth, pride or greed, in response to pride or greed - this is chess - settle for fun OR eternity.

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Originally Posted by olyris

Back and forth, pride or greed, in response to pride or greed - this is chess - settle for fun OR eternity.

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What do you mean? we already ARE eternal, so then it's not fun OR eternity, it's eternal fun!

If we are on this journey, incarnating over and over, then you could either try to pursue enlightenment as a way out of it, or just sit back and enjoy the ride, have fun and do absolutely nothing if you like. In the grand scheme of it all, nothing even matters because every possibility to ever exist has already been created and fulfilled. It all exists in the eternal timeless present moment which is right here, right now. We are just picking different paths based on the previous frame of reference according to our beliefs and expectations, doesn't matter what path you choose because you just experience a different timeline, we basically moving to different timelines constantly progressing down paths leading to whatever our end goal is. Only way out would be breaking the system or becoming enlightened and transitioning into a different form altogether. It's like we are God incarnate having a personal experience of life from multiple perspectives within the God continuum. If all paths lead to the same place, then eventually everything becomes whole again at some point, your soul becomes enlightened or you have experienced so much that there is nothing left to do but be a state of unity with God as a humble spark of creation, resonating in a perpetual state of peace, contentment and humbleness. When you look at it like this, there's not really any need to do anything at all, you can just sit back and take your time with anything and everything if you want, or you can try and progress faster to reach the end goal. But like many say, it's about the journey not the destination, just got to have fun along the way!

I suppose I meant that for the purposes of experiential learning you can pick the black or the white team, on the chessboard. But you are right, you could transcend the game itself and witness. In society you do get either meditation (black) or prayer (white) for a synthesis - doing both tends to leads you to muddlement. However, in pure clarity there is only joy, and that's plenty for a thing to occupy the self with.

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Originally Posted by olyris

I suppose I meant that for the purposes of experiential learning you can pick the black or the white team, on the chessboard. But you are right, you could transcend the game itself and witness. In society you do get either meditation (black) or prayer (white) for a synthesis - doing both tends to leads you to muddlement. However, in pure clarity there is only joy, and that's plenty for a thing to occupy the self with.

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Oh I see what you saying now, I found they are just opposite ends of same spectrum.

Eg.
up/down, left/right, inner/outer, light/dark, love/hate, cold/hot, male/female, yin/yang etc, etc. > but there is also a middle, a center, central point of balance, neutrality, etc.

We live in duality, there is polarity and you can go to either extreme or just be in a calm peaceful spot right in the middle or at least try to hover around that area on the fence which creates balance "everything in moderation". Even the afterlife seems to have duality or polarity unless you transcend it completely and reach a state of unity merging back into unison as the collective and no longer an individual but a part of the whole.

Light, Dark, and Balance... impossible and inescapable theory.

Definition of an impossible and inescapable theory: Evolution and how I will be the first to God.