Sono's Journal

[sono]

Hi Korpo,

Thanks for the good advice. . . . re Krishnamurti, there's Jiddu Krishnamurti who founded Brockwood park School in UK, & I'd recommend "The Awakening of Intelligence" - a series of dialogues between JK & various people, including David Bohm . . then there's also UG Krisnamurti or "UG" (no relative, it's a first name not a surname) who I used to avoid years ago becuase of his abrasive approach, but whom I came to really revere/want to slap!

There are various sites on the net, if you google him - also some videos.(I actually had a very moving experience of 3 Indian Swamis in dhotis come to tell me in the astral that he had "dropped the body" about 2 weeks before he died last year) He did not actually write anything himself, & was extrememly fierce in his approach, denying EVERYTHING; a total nihilist, yet I found in him a humour, compassion & light that few others have.. . . .strange that both K's came from a theosphical background which they both rejected. I never met UG, but (insanely?) feel a very close connection to him. Do watch the video tagged, "It's a filthy word, love!"

[Korpo]

Oh, I meant J. Krishnamurti, one of the proponents of "choiceless awareness".

Oliver

[ButterflyWoman]

What can I change, right now?

Nothing. And you can't change anything at any other time, either. I've been searching for answers for years and I've finally just come to this conclusion. We may be able to change our perspective, but we can't change ANY of our circumstances.

Even making distinct efforts in the material won't do it. You can get a degree in medicine and be prevented by circumstances from becoming a doctor. You can invest your money wisely and still have it embezzled or mismanaged, leaving you destitute and without resources. You can build a house, only to have it burn to the ground the day before you move in and before insurance has taken effect. It doesn't seem to matter what we do. We're not really driving. We're just going for the ride.

The only thing we can change is our perspective on the things that happen. We can change our view from "This is terrible" to "Oh, well, whatever" or some other attitude. But we can't change the world at all, in any way, as far as I can tell. Not by our own will, certainly. And not by our desire or our need.

So I guess the challenge is just to change our minds to accept that everything that happens is no big deal, and adapt to it accordingly, no matter what it is that happens. After all, the world is just an illusion, anyway, and none of it really matters in the long run. One day in the not too distant future, I'll be worm food and in a couple of generations, nobody will remember me at all. The trials and tribulations of what's happening in the right now really don't amount to anything, ultimately.

It's kind of anti-climactic to discover this, but it seems this is where I've arrived.

[Korpo]

OlderWiser,

IIRC you healed yourself from mental illness. I wonder if that is nothing. I think it is quite a feat. It took strength, courage, forgiveness, faith. And it accomplished something. I find that admirable.

And you experienced bliss, unity, divinity.

You got a family, and from your descriptions it sounds wonderful.

Would you swap any of these things for something else?

True, sometimes all we can change is our attitude. And sometimes our attitudes prevent us from seeing opportunities to change things. The trick is being aware, so we can discern the former from the later.

Best of luck,
Oliver

[ButterflyWoman]

IIRC you healed yourself from mental illness. I wonder if that is nothing. I think it is quite a feat. It took strength, courage, forgiveness, faith. And it accomplished something. I find that admirable.

And I still have no control whatsoever over my life circumstances. I had no control over being taken to the psych ward. I had no control over any of the situation at all. I was at the mercy of the illness, and all I did was cope and adapt as it ran its course. Happily, I adapted in ways that were beneficial. I was ultimately still without any real control.

And you experienced bliss, unity, divinity.

Again, this is not me having control over anything. And none of that pays the rent, if you know what I mean. It feels good (well, blissful) but it changes nothing in the material world. It gives me no power, it gives me no control. It's just like morphine when you're in pain. It has an effect, yes, but it doesn't change anything or fix anything. And most (if not all) of my experiences in this area were spontaneous and involuntary, anyway. Again, it happens TO me, I have no control over it. All I do is go along for the ride.

You got a family, and from your descriptions it sounds wonderful.

Again, I didn't do anything, nor did I control anything. And I could easily have been prevented by circumstances beyond my control.

Would you swap any of these things for something else?

That is entirely beside the point. The point is, these are all things that happened TO me. I had no control over any of it. It all just happened and I just adapted to it all as best I could and tried to make some sense out of it. But I didn't control it or even ask for some of it, and a great deal of things in my life I definitely would not have chosen for myself.

I went for a long time with the notion that we create our own reality, but I think now that we don't. Any notion that we do is an illusion. We have no say in any of it, other than how we react to it and how we cope with it.

True, sometimes all we can change is our attitude. And sometimes our attitudes prevent us from seeing opportunities to change things. The trick is being aware, so we can discern the former from the later.

I disagree. I don't think there's ever any time when we really have any ability to influence anything at all. We're all just being carried along by things totally beyond our control.

Frankly, I'm not happy to come to this conclusion, but after years of testing and searching and working it, this is the only thing I can see that is consistent. We are without control or influence over anything but our own perspective/thoughts. All you can do is try to see your experiences in a different light.

[sono]

OlderWiser & Korpo, your discussion is exactly one that I have been having within myself for years. . . are we at the mercy of circumstances or do we create our realities?? Or a bit of both together?? And that's what I meant with my reference to having to try to "control" life -to create a better reality, take care of those who depend on one materially, to say the mantras for abundance (like the Om Gum Shreem Maha Lakshmiyei Swaha) think positively etc - all that is surely an attempt to be in charge of one's life circumstances, although not necessarily at odds with "living in the moment", & being choicelessly aware (cf J Krishnamurti - which I aspired to for many years, but was thrown off course by the revelations about his personal life & his inability to live up to his own teaching. I still feel his influence, however, in all aspects of my life)

There's the hype of "The Secret" juxtaposed against being gracefully open to whatever is thrown at one & accepting it with the joy inherent in choiceless awareness. . . .I now think, if I may interpose my opinion again, that there is a very limited degree of control available to one; mainly as OlderWiser said - it's a matter of choice as to HOW we react, not a matter of creating circumstances to react to.

I have followed Dattatreya Siva Baba's teachings for about a year now, to little external effect, & I find myself reverting to the teachings of my youth, that we are the puppets of Maya & must find a way to free ourselves through spiritual practise & self observation - not through manipulating external events. When one follows the links from sites that offer quick riches & fixes,via mantras & life coaching etc., one finds that they do indeed do that - but for the site owner, who is SELLING their remedies to those in desperate need. . . . I don't know the answer, but do feel (today anyway!) that it's a mixture of both free will & Karma, & that once one has reached a certain point of "painting oneself into a corner" with one's actions, that the choices available become ever narrower. I'd love to convinced otherwise, but. . . . .

J Krishnamurti also said that "the looking IS the discipline", and refers often to "freedom from the known" . UG is really not at all at odds with basic advaita & zen teachings -& I think JK & UG in fact complement one another! One of the most life changing things I have ever encountered was JK's remark, "The content of consciousness IS consciousness". I sat at the end of my bed for 2 days without moving after reading those words. . . .

[ButterflyWoman]

Well, I've been deep in the throes of ... Let me put it this way. I asked for certain blocks (which I didn't know I had) to be removed. And I've spent a few days trying not to drown in some very deeply held and entirely disempowering beliefs and "karma", if you will. Today, I had a big realisation and I have that feeling like you get when you've been vomiting and you're finally finished and all covered with sweat, but you feel better.

So when I feel up to it, and when I've had a chance to test a couple of things, I'll write more on this. I'm glad that my ruminations didn't derail your thread, though. I was kind of concerned that it would go way off track. It pleases me to see that this is something you, too, have struggled with. I hope to be able to offer some of my own recent insights on this subject when I feel up to it. It's been a couple of very, very horrible days for me, and I'm not quite up to strength yet. I have confidence that I'll feel better in a few days.

Blessings to all.

[Korpo]

Hello, OlderWiser.

I would be indeed interested to hear your account if you can share it. I hope you find the rest necessary to gather your strength.

Take very good care and best of luck,
Oliver

[wstein]

And the "woozy feeling " - so that's normal after such experiences??

Yes, at first. Its takes a while to adjust to the new and radically different perspective. After several/many experiences you likely won't get the woozy feeling any more. Kind of like getting your sea legs I suppose.

BTW I have always had a kind of scary/alien resonance from your posts, if I may be so bold as to say so - and now I think I see why - you are not really "here" in the normal sense. Perhaps when one goes so far, it is too hard to return to the play-acting.

I do believe you got it. I range from some of me here to little of me here. When I get 'thin' even speaking is difficult. I post for those wishing to go 'further' out, hoping to meet some fellow travelers.

recently I realize I am looking forward to "discarnating" permanently

I hope you find that sufficient. There are abstract realms out there beyond being incarnate, beyond the over soul, drastically different yet still equally pale.

. . please won't you clarify your last comment re seeking permission to avoid violating others, though?

Some consider it a extreme form of invasion (of privacy) to look deeply into them. Personally, I am more of the opinion that if its there to see just by looking, its not private. Each draws their line of privacy in a different place.

[Korpo]

being choicelessly aware (cf J Krishnamurti - which I aspired to for many years, but was thrown off course by the revelations about his personal life & his inability to live up to his own teaching. I still feel his influence, however, in all aspects of my life)

I guess the teacher is never perfect, just human. Jesus was not perfect, it seems. Let's say he had his "moments". But he was a full human and in touch with the divine. He inspires now, still. If I can learn a decisive piece for my practice from Krishnamurti, I am glad that this he taught me. I have not to become him, though.

I have followed Dattatreya Siva Baba's teachings for about a year now, to little external effect, & I find myself reverting to the teachings of my youth, that we are the puppets of Maya & must find a way to free ourselves through spiritual practise & self observation - not through manipulating external events. When one follows the links from sites that offer quick riches & fixes,via mantras & life coaching etc., one finds that they do indeed do that - but for the site owner, who is SELLING their remedies to those in desperate need.

Interesting. I never found the idea of "The Secret" or "The Law of Attraction" very spiritual at all. At least if you "use it" for getting stuff. Or trying to get stuff. However, if you be mindful of what your attitude is it reverses. If you make first positive thought your habit instead of trying to manifest specific goals. I think that heightens the chance of attracting things the Universe can give you, makes you open to better options. And if even then your attitude is not to get things by being good, but minding the positive because of the positive - I think the Buddhists call it "skillful qualities and thoughts" - it gets truly spiritual. JMO, of course!

I don't know the answer, but do feel (today anyway!) that it's a mixture of both free will & Karma

I agree.

that once one has reached a certain point of "painting oneself into a corner" with one's actions, that the choices available become ever narrower.

In my experience that is true.

J Krishnamurti also said that "the looking IS the discipline", and refers often to "freedom from the known" . UG is really not at all at odds with basic advaita & zen teachings -& I think JK & UG in fact complement one another!

There were often tandems of teachers that seem contrary within the same tradition - the mild Lao Tse and the crazy Chuan Tsu. Some think they are the Yin and the Yang of Daoist thought. And as many silent sages Buddhism brought, there were also those that exposed "crazy wisdom", who broke the rules to cut through to the really important stuff in practice. Who avoided the formal and reduced the practice back to the original. It seems to be a back and forth that revives the teachings so they do not just get stale, wrapped in layers of unneeded formalism. The formalists and orthodox, and the radical and extreme.

One of the most life changing things I have ever encountered was JK's remark, "The content of consciousness IS consciousness". I sat at the end of my bed for 2 days without moving after reading those words. . . .

You might enjoy Adyashanti. He is similar. I'm receiving his book soon.

Oliver