energy, prana, chi, vital energy

[workinprogress]

I have a few questions about energy and energy accumulation. I thought I would post here and see what others say before jumping right to RB. The following has been my understanding of the various methods of energy development:

In yoga you feel prana and can increase prana through pranayama (breathing exercises) as well as the asanas. But to my knowledge, there isn't a conscientous thought/will to store energy within the body. You can observe/feel energy flow and sometimes direct it, but I don't know of any emphasis on willfully accumulating it.

In Tai Chi and QiGong the movements and breathing also increase your chi, but again, to my knowledge, the process is naturally occuring. I have yet to be told to image or will chi to the dan tien (or tan tien as it is also spelled). Instead the sheer practice is supposed to do this naturally. Although in advanced practices you do work with moving energy, but I haven't read about focusing on storing it anywhere.

In hermetics, you learn pore breathing and how to accumulate vital energy. While you can store this vital energy for specific purposes, it must be expelled fairly soon. The premise is that accumulating vital energy strains the energy body and is like pumping a bike tire beyond the recommend pressure. Sooner or later it is bound to explode. So you practice accumulating and holding the vital energy to increase the ability of your energy body to hold more energy for longer periods. But again, it is specifically stated not to store it.

Then there is NEW in which using tactile and some visualization you accumulate energy and store it in the sub-navel area. With enough practice, this too becomes natural and the body will automatically begin accumulating energy with little thought/effort on your part.

First question:
Are each of these energy names the same energy (Chi, Prana, Energy, Vital Energy) or are each a different type of energy?

Second:
If they are the same type of energy, why does one specify its dangerous to store it, others say not to force it but grow it naturally and a fourth advocates consciously storing it? To me these sound like conflicting practices/procedures. But if the energies are all diffferent, then that would go part way to explaining the differing thoughts on energy raising/development.

Third:
While Tai Chi/QiGong, Yoga and NEW can be seen as somewhat consistent - they all teach raising and storing energy, just in different ways. Has anyone tried combining QiGong standing meditation with NEW energy raising? I haven't done so yet, but it would seem possible that doing so may result in larger than normal energy sensations (willing more than the usual amount of energy to rise while performing an action already known to raise energy). So that would be my one note of caution while I try using the two together this weekend. If anyone else has already tried this, I would greatly appreciate hearing their experience(s)

Fourth:
Why is there such a drastic difference in the practice of hermetics with vital energy (ie: never store it). Also, I find pore breathing very easy and enjoyable to do. I was wondering if anyone has tried combining pore breathing to store energy in the sub-navel area? I'm a bit hesitant with trying this myself, because I can feel the vital energy when I pore breathe. I do feel the pressure as it enters my body and I can feel the increased internal pressure from it as I accumulate. For this reason, I can understand the need for releasing the vital energy once a practice session is complete.

But interestingly enough, I never feel this internal or external pressure when I practice NEW, QiGong or yoga. I feel energy rising and circulating, but its a very different feeling from the vital energy. So I'm thinking that maybe Chi, Prana and Energy are the same thing, but that vital energy is something different. And I would love to try to incorporate pore breathing, but would need to build up more of a comfort level with my ability to identify and select energies. I wouldn't want to begin pore breathing and raise/pull vital energy instead of 'regular' energy or Chi. Has anyone else experienced the difference between energy as used in NEW and vital energy as practiced in hermetics? If not, has anyone else noticed they can raise/pull energy from their whole bodies and not just feet and hands? If so, have you 'played' with this at all?

Sorry for the lengthy post!

[EOL007]

Great post,

Keep with it!

Stephen

[Hegemony]

I think these are *excellent* questions and statements, and there should be no hesitation on your part to go ask RB, since his NEW system seems to be a result of his study and work with all of the preceding practices you mentioned. I too have experimented with pore breathing, and found that if I don't willingly store energy, regardless of how I accumulate it, it automatically finds its way back out into its origins.

I find that a handful of Franz Bardon's precautions regarding certain things seem a little extreme.

[Jaco]

I was practicing hatha yoga for some time in my past, and sometimes I was raising energy using NEW techniques while being in asana. Hmm, I haven't felt any conflict or interference, it was the same type of energy to me, only when in asana energy flow seemed more natural, and while doing NEW is was a forced flow But I was doing it rather rarely, so... I can't be sure of anything
So, there was my two cents

I've always been taught that Chi, Ki, and Prana are all the same thing. In Reiki, it's called Universal Life Force. I think that storing energy isn't going to hurt you. Using New is really great. From my experience with it, as you continue raising and storing energy, your physical body adapts and can work with more and more energy.

With Quantum Touch healing, you are taught to raise the energy and then let it flow out your hands for healing. It's continual, so there's no need to store. I've never felt energy depleted after doing many QT sessions. In fact, last weekend, I was in a workshop where we were raising the energy almost all day for two days in a row. By Sunday night, I was feeling better than I had felt in a long time.

Isn't energy (Life Force) just energy? Just because different modalities give it a different name doesn't necessarily mean it is different. IMO it's like God. Just because God has a zillion different names from a zillion different religions and belief systems, isn't It still the same Creator?

Maybe I'm wrong...I'm not experienced in some of the modalities you mentioned, but my intuition tells me it's all the same.

[workinprogress]

Isn't energy (Life Force) just energy? Just because different modalities give it a different name doesn't necessarily mean it is different.

I couldn't agree more. The possibility of them being different is simply that, a possibility. And I have this weird thing I do in which I try and post all of the possibilities I've thought/discovered and present them as options I've considered as well as what my thoughts on each are. And I do think those three energies are the same thing -- at least I experience them as being very similar to the point where I can't differentiate one from the other. However, I do feel a distinct difference with vital energy. And that's the one that I think may somehow be different, just not sure how.

I find that a handful of Franz Bardon's precautions regarding certain things seem a little extreme.

I agree as well with this statement. But I'm also no where near completing IIH, so I'm not positive. I remain cautious and yet optimistic. I will keep warnings in mind and watch for signs, but I still want to try things out for myself.

if I don't willingly store energy, regardless of how I accumulate it, it automatically finds its way back out into its origins.

Really? That's interesting. I haven't tried to hold the energy beyond practice sessions, but whether I store it in the whole body or body parts, I can distinctly feel the pressure internally of wherever I'm storing it. Even after I've stopped accumulating it. I find I do need to release it to get my body "back to normal" though. Maybe this is just something with me personally.

But I think it would be really interesting to try and combine pore breathing with NEW such that you pull energy from all of your skin and accumulate it in the sub-navel area. Right now I'm at the point where even as I write or read about raising energy (not doing it just writing/reading about it) the energy automatically starts to flow up. Its weird, its like the faintest hint of a thought in my mind triggers energy to rise. But this can be distinctly felt only in the lower half (I typically work on bringing just up the legs in the sub-navel area). I will sometimes work with the hands and the full-body circuit, but I find the full-body circuit requires more mental effort and doesn't 'start' on its own like the legs do.

But pore breathing tends to happen in a similar fashion for me. If I even think vaguely about it, I can feel vital energy flow in, but it also flows out on the exhale. When it occurs in this way, the energy doesn't remain. But my whole body feels "exercised" if you will. Which is why I'm thinking I may try this and NEW bundled in the near future and see what happens.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

[Celeborn]

In response to the philosophies of taichi/chigung I recommend you looking up a technique called the heavenly orbit (also translated as the microcosmic orbit). Traditionally it is only taught to advanced students of taichi/chigung but it is one of the first things taught to Taoist mediators.

This technique is almost identical in every way to Robert Bruce's full circuit, except that it normally starts and ends at the substorage energy center (lower tandien), rather than the feet. Though their are earth energy styles that start with the feet.

This technique is designed to STORE energy, so that the student's total chi will become greater and greater, eventually leading to a conversion of chi into shen (or spirit, a far more refined type of energy).

This is usually done by cleaning the meridians with chi through the heavenly orbit, and then, when you are ready, using Jing energy (translated as vital energy) to strengthen and empower the meridians. It is more powerful than heavenly or earthly chi, but also harder to control. It is highly recommended that you master storing normal, heavenly, and earthly chi before attempting to store jing.

I recommend picking up some books on Taoist meditation and inner-alchemy. Michael Winn or Mantac Chia are probably the most direct, but there are many other great books out there. Unfortunately, most authors done not detail specifics because of the danger involved all of these types of abilities, and they want people to find a teacher. Sadly, very few advanced teachers can be easily found in either the east or the west.

I do not know if Hermetic "vital energy" is the same as Taoist "vital energy" as I have only studied Chinese and Japanese systems (beside RB), but from what you said they sounded related.

[Aunt Clair]

In yoga you feel prana and can increase prana through pranayama (breathing exercises) as well as the asanas. But to my knowledge, there isn't a conscientous thought/will to store energy within the body. You can observe/feel energy flow and sometimes direct it, but I don't know of any emphasis on willfully accumulating it.

Other forms of Yoga are drastically different than the basic Hatha Yoga ;
I have learned Kriya Yoga from spirit teachers to store , direct and manifest energy .I also did a quick google for you using keywords yoga+storing + energy ;

Preksha Yoga For Common Ailments - Yoga and Health Hatha yoga teaches us how to utilize, store and promote free flow of life ... This may lead to loss of body's stored energy and thereafter-physical weakness. ...
http://www.indiangyan.com/books/ yogabooks/preksha_yoga/index.shtml

Sahaja Yoga in SacramentoBy this yoga, you can control the activity of the sympathetic, ie you can use more energy that is stored or else completely stop the activity of this ...
http://www.geocities.com/sacramentoyoga/page2.html

Kundalini Yoga - Fundamental ComponentsApana is the elimating energy stored in the lower chakras. ... Kundalini Yoga kriyas are centuries old. The total effect of a kriya is greater than the sum ...
http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/basic.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

In Tai Chi and QiGong the movements and breathing also increase your chi, but again, to my knowledge, the process is naturally occuring. I have yet to be told to image or will chi to the dan tien (or tan tien as it is also spelled).

Tan tiens are areas around the chakral column that are used to store energy . The Dan Tien is a specific Tan Tien , it is the area over the yellow solar plexus and green heart chakras . The other two tan tiens we are born with are the red male tan tien over the orange and red chakras and the blue female tan tien over the violet , indigo and blue chakras . As a Hermetic Magician I do bring energy up into the tan tiens and also down from the crowns into them for a number of practices . Here is an advanced practice ;
http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/Wingmak...ra%20Line.html

Instead the sheer practice is supposed to do this naturally. Although in advanced practices you do work with moving energy, but I haven't read about focusing on storing it anywhere.

The male tan tien manifests an alchemical structure called a throne from which innumerable nadis bloom .

In hermetics, you learn pore breathing and how to accumulate vital energy. While you can store this vital energy for specific purposes, it must be expelled fairly soon. The premise is that accumulating vital energy strains the energy body and is like pumping a bike tire beyond the recommend pressure. Sooner or later it is bound to explode. So you practice accumulating and holding the vital energy to increase the ability of your energy body to hold more energy for longer periods. But again, it is specifically stated not to store it.

I have completed the Ten Step Path of the Magician and I recall reading about storing up energy . I also learned from spirit teachers about energy and from Robert Bruce of course . The point here being I believe the deep cleansing , powering up , releasing and storing of energy are fundamental to Hermetic Magick . Here are a few links ;

Astral Healer :: Self-ImprovementHermetic magic has a system developed by Franz Bardon and taught in Initiation ... There are a great many ways to store energy and use energy that doesn't ...
astralhealer.com/selfimprove.php - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

FRANZ BARDON BOOKS hermetic magic initiation into hermetics ...Books by Franz Bardon, Hermetic Magic, Books by Jakob Lorber, Hermetic Science, ... The Practice of Accumulation of Vital Energy. Addendum to Step III ...www.merkurpublishing.com/franz_ bardon_hermetics_evocation_kabbalah.htm - 80k - Cached - Similar pages

Then there is NEW in which using tactile and some visualization you accumulate energy and store it in the sub-navel area. With enough practice, this too becomes natural and the body will automatically begin accumulating energy with little thought/effort on your part.

I feel that the adept will always want to work on their energy body as long as they live and perhaps beyond death . It is not enough to allow the spontaneous energy flow or to expect that it will function as autonomic reflex does . Stale prana and toxins must be deep cleansed to avoid disease and depression .The prefected energy body kept in the best condition is an asset which expands all of our clarient abilities and expands our consciousness and general well being emotionally and physically . Areas of neglect are apparent even on practiced magicians . For example in energy body readings , it is apparent that many neglect their feet and brow centre and that hands are areas of intentional focus .

First question:
Are each of these energy names the same energy (Chi, Prana, Energy, Vital Energy) or are each a different type of energy?

They are the same but prana often refers to breath energy . Chi and psi are the same . But vital energy is a loose new age term referring to the latin base vitae or life so meaning life sustaining energy sometimes and others meaning energy boosts that come from diet and exercise as this 'vitamin will increase your vital energy '.

Second:If they are the same type of energy, why does one specify its dangerous to store it, others say not to force it but grow it naturally and a fourth advocates consciously storing it? To me these sound like conflicting practices/procedures. But if the energies are all diffferent, then that would go part way to explaining the differing thoughts on energy raising/development.

There are many different methods under the sun. I suggest going straight to the source and learning as a mystic and learning from Robert Bruce . He is an expert on the human energy body .

Has anyone else experienced the difference between energy as used in NEW and vital energy as practiced in hermetics? If not, has anyone else noticed they can raise/pull energy from their whole bodies and not just feet and hands? If so, have you 'played' with this at all?

Yes , the heart pumps energy .
Influent and Effluent
palms of hand
instep of feet
perineum
crown
Influent
heart
brow centre/ third eye
nose
ears
Effluent
rear of heart
rear of brow
heel of the foot purges out .
etc.
Energy can be stored by pulling it up the body through the legs
and wrapping it into a variety of methods ie sarcophagus , cobra , butterfly pranic knots and raising energy using yogic bandhas.
NEW is excellent "play" with energy and the methods aslo "work" to develop the energy body quickly . I advocate utilising a variety of methods .

[workinprogress]

Celeborn wrote:

I recommend picking up some books on Taoist meditation and inner-alchemy. Michael Winn or Mantac Chia are probably the most direct, but there are many other great books out there..... Sadly, very few advanced teachers can be easily found in either the east or the west.

I couldn't agree more about lack of qualified advanced teachers in the west. Unfortunately this isn't restricted to only Taoist meditation or QiGong. I have heard contradictory things about Mantak Chia, so I am hesitant to buy his books. I currently am reading books by BK Frantzis and Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. Although I do remember seeing the microcosmic orbit meditation mentioned somewhere. But it didn't elaborate on details. I will research that as well, thank you for the recommendation.


Aunt Clair wrote:

Other forms of Yoga are drastically different than the basic Hatha Yoga

I completely agree. There are many forms of yoga and I had studied a few different ones.

I studied kundalini yoga for about a year. I took a few classes with several different certified teachers as well as some books on my own at home. But even when specifically asked, none of the teachers taught or new about storing prana. And most yoga instructors I have met don't really know the more esoteric aspects of the practice. I am not claiming that I do, however, I can usually tell when someone is 'dancing around' an issue or brushing it off.

I have come to be rather a snob when it comes to who and what I study. Unfortunately most western instructors teach a watered down, superficial style of yoga. This is not meant as a slight in any way towards any yoga teachers. I describe it like this because I don't think real esoteric knowledge can be dissemenated to the masses with success. And the interest in yoga has exploded over the past 10 years, such that its impossible to maintain any type of 'pure or complete' teaching. I think yoga the way it is being taught today has definate benefits and I am not knocking it at all. However, I also don't think it is being taught as deeply or wholely as it can be, if that makes sense. I think this is due to two main reasons:

1) most westerners don't understand or don't believe in the esoteric aspects of yoga or other eastern philosophies/practices; and
2) most advanced/master instructors don't readily share the knowledge

I have heard of and read about Kriya yoga. I don't like the fact that you need to sign a form of secrecy before attending a class though. That sounds a bit ...... odd to me. So I have never taken a class in it. But I understand its essentially a form of pranayama, which is also a way to build and store energy. I have also read about and practiced some Iyengar yoga, but again, it is taught that pranayama and asanas naturally build up prana and you don't need to 'do' anything additional -- ie visualization or willful thoughts.

I had also read about Sahaja yoga awhile ago. I forget the details, but I believe it is meditation and visualization based. I remember at the time not being drawn to it so I didn't pursue it.

But with the forms of yoga I have studied, pranayama is the recommended way to build energy naturally.

The Dan Tien is a specific Tan Tien , it is the area over the yellow solar plexus and green heart chakras . The other two tan tiens we are born with are the red male tan tien over the orange and red chakras and the blue female tan tien over the violet , indigo and blue chakras .

Hmm, this isn't what I have read or been taught. Although I am just learning and have only been taking classes about a month now. So I could be mistaken. But my instructor explained that the Dan Tien is about 2 inches below the navel. And from your description, it appears it is over the manipura and anahata chakras (navel and heart center). I know there are other tan tiens, but as I mentioned, I am just learning and don't know where they are yet.

They are the same but prana often refers to breath energy . Chi and psi are the same . But vital energy is a loose new age term referring to the latin base vitae or life so meaning life sustaining energy sometimes and others meaning energy boosts that come from diet and exercise

I agree that many new age groups use and abuse terms for many different things. I am referring here only to the way in which Bardon uses it. I do experience this energy as being different than Prana or Chi. Has that been your experience as well?

Thanks very much for your response to my posts. I appreciate the feedback.[/code]

[Celeborn]

I have heard contradictory things about Mantak Chia, so I am hesitant to buy his books.

...Yeah...I have read a number of his books, and while the techniques that he offers are quite good, I have found his writting style to be a little juvinile. Also he fills up his books with weak attempts to explain energy and his practices through some very bad science. So I have taken to cutting the actual practices (which are quite powerful) out of the books for convinience.

But then, this is why I have liked Robert Bruce so much. He teaches the most foundational and important Taoist practice, the microcosmic orbit, clearly, without any BS.

If you still want the meat of Mantak Chia's deeper teachings without all of his BS, some of his best students have written pretty good books. Eric Yudelove's book, Taoist Yoga and Sexual Energy; Internal Alchemy and Chi Kung."
But of course, there are still other authors out their without any affiliation to MC who have very valuable information on the topic.

But my instructor explained that the Dan Tien is about 2 inches below the navel. And from your description, it appears it is over the manipura and anahata chakras (navel and heart center). I know there are other tan tiens, but as I mentioned, I am just learning and don't know where they are yet.

In the Taoist/Chinese medical tradition there are 3 Tan Tien: one between the eyes, one near the heart and one under the belly button. In this tradition though, they do not acknowledge the Indian chakras.
In Robert Bruce's system the 3 Tan Tien are called the 3 storage centers and differently but in conjuncture with the chakras.