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Thread: barriers to expanding consciousness

  1. #21
    Ouroboros Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    As one who grew up on video games and fantasy novels, and spent a good portion of my life addicted to them, I feel I can offer something to this discussion.

    Personally, it is my view that cartoon media is neither a hindrance nor a help to spiritual progress. While the portrayal of metaphysics is almost always wildly inaccurate, and some may find it misleading...I think, as others have mentioned, that the true seeker will find a way despite this. That is not to say that cartoon media does not present traps and pitfalls, but anything in life can be a pitfall or a trap.

    My experience with video games started very early, around the age of four. My parents got a Nintendo (the original), and from that point on I was hooked. I also loved reading from an early age, and my favorite genre was fantasy, although sci-fi had a special place in my heart too. I was always fascinated by magic in cartoon media and I believe that this did help provide motivation for pursuing spiritual growth. However, my gaming was an addiction, and I did pay a price for that. My ability to concentrate has suffered as a result (ADD like a mofo, yo), and I wasted a lot of time on entertainment that could have been spent much more wisely.

    When it comes to dismissing spirituality/metaphysics as a result of overexposure to the fantastic portrayals of the aforementioned subjects, this was somewhat of an issue for me. However, I attribute this more directly to my psychological state than to cartoon media. I was addicted to escapism...I did not like my life, and wanted very much to live in one of those magical worlds, to be one of those magical characters. I did not feel special or important, and felt that if I lived in one of those fantasy worlds my life might actually have some meaning or purpose. And so I lived vicariously through the media, wishing and desiring to be in a world other than my own, where magical things happened. Cartoon media was my way of feeding the need to escape...I'm sure that without it, I would have simply found another thing to lose myself in and escape to.

    Today, I rarely play video games, and rarely read anything that isn't related to my work or my spiritual interests. I'm still working on the core psychological issues that drove the addiction to escapism, and I do still deal with a very strong skepticism when it comes to metaphysics. But there's more to that story than just cartoon media, and I think the context in which that media is experienced is an extremely important variable when determining whether it does more harm than good as a form of entertainment.

  2. #22
    sleeper Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    Everyone,

    thank you for your replies. you have given me much to think about.

    i'm leaving it implicit that spiritual teachings have a purpose because i really can't try to argue anything about spiritual paths or goals, because of widespread disagreement.

    ...............................

    CF,

    thank you for your lengthy reply. I'm going to mull it over a bit and get back to you.

    in the meantime, if you're interested, please consider out these three things:
    1. Pavlovian Conditioning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP5lC...yer_embedded#!
    2. Punishment/Rewards based systems are well defined in cartoon media, especially games. http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/fa...-2009/05CA.pdf
    3. Building the game layer on top of the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn9fTc_WMbo

    .......................

    Korpo,
    Quote Originally Posted by Korpo
    I do no longer believe enlightenment derives from an energy practice, and if it does in some cases then because it was a practice that helped unravel, understand and release old psychological structures and not so much one of running energy from A to F through related point B-E.
    Oliver
    Would you mind extrapolating on what you think enlightenment, what leads to it, and what you mean when you say psychological structures?

    Ouroboros,

    I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag too early but i'm actually not opposed to video games (strangely). My experiences have made it abundantly clear that the elements of gaming are actually quite useful in many ways and are completely absent from every other aspect of our society. for instance, imagine how much progress one could make in say, AP, if progress was broken down into infinitesimally small portions, there was a constant assessment of progress, quest givers (and reward givers, for that matter), constantly new challenges that could be overcome, and aspiring AP'ers would commit 3-6 hours per day (or more) to practice (as do many gamers). One of my current projects is the collection and consolidation of the Principles of Gaming into useful life guiding principles - there are many more of these than i listed above and i do declare that they are not likely to be discovered or utilized by any non-gamer.

    ........................................

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros
    Personally, it is my view that cartoon media is neither a hindrance nor a help to spiritual progress.
    Please elaborate --> what do you consider to be hindrances to spiritual progress? what do you consider to be helpful? what do you consider spiritual progress to be, actually?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros
    (ADD like a mofo, yo)
    do you mind if i ask what your healing protocols are for handling your ADD?

    I'm glad you brought up escapism because that is tangential to my concerns in an important yet strange way. If i may be candid without being taken the wrong way; i simply mean this literally:
    we live in amazing times where we actually have the luxury of being escapists and i'm not actually opposed to it per se. my focus is on the future and i predict that in short order, our lives will become much more difficult and riddled with strife, and we will be forced to prioritize quite severely: i mean that we won't have time to do whatever we want so what little time we will have will be very precious to us and we will be selective about what we choose to do with it. that being the (predicted) case, i think that many of us will reminisce about the times that we enjoy now.

    ............

    ciao

  3. #23
    Ouroboros Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    Please elaborate --> what do you consider to be hindrances to spiritual progress? what do you consider to be helpful? what do you consider spiritual progress to be, actually?
    My opinion:
    A hindrance is any action taken by an individual that takes them further away from their purpose, and helpful is any action taken by an individual that brings them closer. Essentially, it is not the things, events, or people in our lives that are hindrances or helps to our spiritual progress, but rather it is the reaction we have to these events, things, or people. Yes, people can have amazing blissful transcendent experiences...but if their reactions to the experience take them away from their purpose, then it's not much of a help. Therefore, no thing, event, or person can - in and of themselves - be considered to be a spiritual hindrance or help.

    Spiritual progress is too difficult to define. I cannot even define it for myself, really, so I won't make an attempt at a more general definition. I used "purpose" above because it was the closest match to what I want to express that I could think of. Keep in mind I'm not what one would consider a "spiritually advanced" person. Spiritual progress for me at this point would be some sense of connection to any sort of Higher Self I may or may not have.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    do you mind if i ask what your healing protocols are for handling your ADD?
    Not at all! I don't have any. Well, that's assuming "protocols" have the correlation of a disciplined effort. I do make attempts at meditating regularly, and I'm trying to exercise more...but discipline is something I've been lacking for a long time.

    Also, I love your idea concerning the Principles of Gaming. I've had similar thoughts many many times - I'm very interested in what you've got going with that, so I'd love to read more if you want to write it up, perhaps as another thread. Or in a PM if you're more comfortable with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    that being the (predicted) case, i think that many of us will reminisce about the times that we enjoy now.
    Even if it's not the case, I'm sure many of us will still reminisce about the times we enjoy now.

  4. #24
    sleeper Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    i'll be certain to post game dynamics and principles of game design soon, maybe as soon as 1 week.

  5. #25
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    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    Hello, sleeper.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    Korpo,
    Quote Originally Posted by Korpo
    I do no longer believe enlightenment derives from an energy practice, and if it does in some cases then because it was a practice that helped unravel, understand and release old psychological structures and not so much one of running energy from A to F through related point B-E.
    Oliver
    Would you mind extrapolating on what you think enlightenment, what leads to it, and what you mean when you say psychological structures?
    Enlightenment is to me the ability to be with any kind of situation.

    Leading to it is the increasing ability to be with a multitude of situations through learning. This kind of learning breaks down all kinds of inward obstacles towards enlightenment.

    "Old psychological structures" are the obstacles I mentioned. Obsolete reactions to your environment that do not serve you anymore. In this sense, enlightenment is the ability to come up with a new and unique response to any situation one is in, just as new and unique the situations are one is faced with.

    During the course of one's personal evolution behaviours can become outdated that once served you well. You leave them behind and move closer to that state of enlightenment.

    Cheers,
    Oliver

  6. #26
    sleeper Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    do you mind if i ask what your healing protocols are for handling your ADD?
    Not at all! I don't have any. Well, that's assuming "protocols" have the correlation of a disciplined effort. I do make attempts at meditating regularly, and I'm trying to exercise more...but discipline is something I've been lacking for a long time.
    have you considered removing toxins from your diet? artificial colors, preservatives, artificial flavors and more contribute greatly to ADD (google it if you had not heard of that).

    also, most if not all people with neurological dysfunction have some form of gluten/gliaden sensitivity. there are a variety of ways that it can manifest itself, however, up to 90% of westerners may have gluten sensitivity, which is a form of immune response to gluten in the diet. there are many kinds of immune responses. gluten can also affect the thyroid and metabolism adversely.

    there's a lot of other stuff too but tell me what you think of this stuff first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korpo

    Enlightenment is to me the ability to be with any kind of situation.

    Cheers,
    Oliver
    why do you call it enlightenment? personally i call that "being present" or "keeping my cool" (unless i'm misunderstanding you).

    dale

  7. #27
    Ouroboros Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    have you considered removing toxins from your diet? artificial colors, preservatives, artificial flavors and more contribute greatly to ADD (google it if you had not heard of that).

    also, most if not all people with neurological dysfunction have some form of gluten/gliaden sensitivity. there are a variety of ways that it can manifest itself, however, up to 90% of westerners may have gluten sensitivity, which is a form of immune response to gluten in the diet. there are many kinds of immune responses. gluten can also affect the thyroid and metabolism adversely.
    I've considered it, never done it. Is it possible to have a gluten-free, toxin-free diet that doesn't involve a considerable investment in time? (That's not meant to be sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely not sure. Haven't really had the time to research it.)

  8. #28
    sleeper Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros
    Is it possible to have a gluten-free, toxin-free diet that doesn't involve a considerable investment in time? (That's not meant to be sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely not sure. Haven't really had the time to research it.)
    it's super easy, i do it. your ancestors did it too.

    if you eat only what they ate, you'll be well on your way. you certainly have inherited certain nutritional requirements from them that can only be met with the same types of diet they had.

    what do you think they ate?

  9. #29
    sleeper Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    sorry for the delay in replying to your post cf.

    i'm going to be honest: i'm scared to reply here because the quote management and text-editing is going to be a pain in the rear.

    Quote Originally Posted by CFTraveler
    For some reason I couldn't get to this sooner, maybe other people had a lot more to say than I- sorry if I repeat what others may have said, I'll just comment as thoughts pop into my head.
    Quote Originally Posted by sleeper
    Semantical signifiers as lexiconic barriers to communication.
    And
    Conceptual framework as the mechanism of contextual comprehension.
    In other words:
    How do you know if your audience understands what you mean when you say it?
    Or
    Pragmatics.
    That's quite the comprehensive text you got here. Wow! It's a keeper.


    thanks. The title is where i wrote my primary concerns; that i'm unable to communicate with people clearly when discussing spiritual things. My feeling on it at present is that i can substitute the word marklar for almost any spiritual word and communicate just as clearly. for instance: "last night my marklar was amazing. i left my marklar and went to marklar and talked to marklar. marklar told me to marklar my marklar and i wrote that down. then i raised my marklar by lighting a marklar and listening to marklar until my marklar ran out. now i'm in a dark marklar of the marklar - can anyone send me some marklar?"

    so my issue, my confession, is that i have a deep personal need to share my experiences and insights with others, and to hear their stories, and to grow together. I'm growing at a tremendous pace and although i share what i can when i can, i only share about 2% of my big stuff, and near-zero of the small stuff. i just think it's a waste - a waste that only i benefit from knowledge and wisdom that is so easy to share.

    it's also a waste that i can't bounce my message off of other people. I know i can greatly benefit from the input of others. but i'd do less damage and get more input if i just bounced a brick off of my kitchen cabinet, rather than to randomly throw my thoughts online. so i'm selective; i post to certain people on certain forums when i think some good might come from it.


    I’m troubled by what I see as a trend; the obscuring of the valuable meaning of valuable words and also adds worthless meaning to the same words. In other words, it is our experiences that contribute to our conceptual framework that we use to translate what we see and hear; translate that into something coherent.

    So many people from diverse backgrounds are flocking to spiritual knowledge that I should feel enthusiastic; spiritual seeking is a good thing, however, I’m concerned about the magnitude of the misunderstandings and proclamations that are occurring today. Even though diverse groups flocking to spirituality use much of the same language, they generally mean much different things when they use them and that is contributing overall to a contamination of spiritual knowledge which does not portend well for future generations.
    I almost disagree- even though a greater number of people are exposed to certain ideas, I find that everyone without exception interprets what they read or learn information in whatever supports their comprehension, and this has been always true- if you take a look at contemporary religions you will see that there are as many interpretations of christianity as there are groups- some have such differing beliefs that they don't even believe that the 'other' ones are christians, and have different understandings of concepts that are thought to be universal in this specific religion- the Holy Spirit is going to be taught one way in a Pentecostal church than in a Unity church, for example.
    This doesn't mean that there are many kinds of Holy Spirit, it just means that my understanding of it will be different than the Mormon who knocked on my door yesterday, and I don't expect us to agree on it anytime soon.


    Those are good points: i hope never to affect a person's interpretation or opinion on something; rather i'd like to learn what others opinions are, why they came to them and how..
    i'm concerned about core functional issues.
    e.g. astral projection. i don't care if a projection aspirant believes in energy-body-double or believes empty body theory; as long as they can functionally leave their body.
    e.g. kundalini. i don't care if people think kundalini is the serpent from the garden of eden or if they think it's an experience our subconscious creates like a dream. if they can functionally raise kundalini, i don't care.
    e.g. emotional blockages. whether they believe in EFT, hypnosis, past life regression, hex removal, the power of forgiveness, etc. if a person can functionally remove blockages that's what matters to me.

    regarding the holy spirit, i have to confess that i have no idea what that is, at least in a christian, jewish, islamic, hindu, or other context. But i do know what yeshua meant when he used the term. I know what mahavatar babiji means by it. I know what my experiences taught me. But when i talk to a christian, i know that they mean something by i that i simply do not understand.


    Spiritual knowledge has been garnished from thousands of years of hard work and preserved in multi-cultural texts, traditions and by discipleship. Now that we are technologically capable of widely disseminating this information, it should be properly done – humanity has the resources to do it. Why, instead, humanity chooses to create mindless entertainment – I don’t know.
    I can answer that- some groups believe that to attain any type of progress (spiritual progress, that is) we have to be exposed to some ideas, and it doesn't matter if the brain understands it, because the truth doesn't have to be understood to be recognized, only remembered. So this information is out there partly to be made conscious, and to cause interest in it, as many people have become interested. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't believe or understand it, chances are they wouldn't have anyway.

    ok then define spiritual progress and how it occurs please. and what groups believes in the idea you're alluding to?

    But I do know that at the pace the spiritual contamination is going, future generations will have trouble distinguishing truth from fantasy.
    The thing is, that I don't know anyone who categorically knows truth from fantasy, because truth is truth somewhere, and the only fundamental truth is not context-dependent.

    forgive me for being candid, but i don't understand why you doubt yourself and others so severely. we are instruments of perception, of analysis, of memory. if there is any other creature more capable of distinguishing between fact and fiction, more capable than human beings, i have no idea what they would be. Human beings seem quite capable of making this distinction. for instance, when a mosquito bites you, do you categorically diagnose the situation and write a treatise on it? do you pinch yourself to see if it's a dream? do you ask others to take a photo and see if the mosquito shows up in the picture? or do you swat the damn bug and move on with things?

    we're all subject to social engineering, mind control, emotional distress, pavlovian training throughout our life and many of use are paralyzed by self doubt. you're capable of making important distinctions, as am I, as are all who frequent this board. and one important step towards freedom is to stop creating impossible problems. our problems are simple. again, if i pinched a nerve, forgive me. i'm just engaging the discussion.


    Naruto is a is an fictional ongoing Japanese manga series (anime, manga, movies, card game and video game) about a young ninja. Here is an excerpt from narutopedia, regarding naruto lore:

    Chakra (ãƒÂャクラ, chakura) is essential to even the most basic jutsu; it is a mixture of the physical energy present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy gained from exercise and experience. Once mixed, it can be channeled through the chakra circulatory system, which is to chakra as the regular circulatory system is to blood, to any of the 361 chakra points (called tenketsu) in the body. Through various methods, the most common of which is hand seals, the chakra can then be manipulated to create an effect that would not be possible otherwise, such as walking on water.

    Here is some non-fiction; excerpts from Wikipedia’s chakra page:

    “The Chakras are said to be "force centers" or whorls of energy permeating, from a point on the physical body, the layers of the subtle bodies in an ever-increasing fan-shaped formation. Rotating vortices of subtle matter, they are considered the focal points for the reception and transmission of energies.â€Â

    “The central role of the chakras in this model is the raising of Kundalini, where it pierces the various centers, causing various levels of realisation and resulting in the obtention of various siddhis or occult powers, until reaching the crown of the head, resulting in union with the Divine.â€Â

    One excerpt is fantasy, one reality How do you know which one is which? How would a Naruto fan distinguish the two?
    I will give you an answer from my own experience (not theoretical, this actually has happened a few times):
    Occasionally a young kid will google chakras or psiballs or kiballs or something from Naruto, and find themselves here or in other energy-work oriented websites. They originally want to know what is possible, and are flabbergasted when they find out that people do learn to make energy balls and run energy, etc. Invariably they want to find out how to do it, just because it seems cool. Then they read more about it from actual practicioner (such as Robert, or other psi sites, for example, the old psipog (or however it was called). Then they realize there is a lot os serious material and get to one point- find out what this is really for (and get more into real spirituality) or decide that it's too much work for results they are not that interested in. These are the immature kids, who then go on to the next thing.
    Out of that initial 'dude' group some end up becoming some kind of practitioner, the rest go on a more traditional life, and like some, end up looking at spirituality when older.
    Or not, the cycle goes on.


    I see your point and for the most part agree. where our opinions seem to diverge (i'm guessing) is where we entertain the implications of other possibilities. I wonder what would happen if there were DVD's of robert bruce in every home? if there were copies of astral dynamics on every shelf? if people simply knew who robert monroe was and what conclusions he came to during his life - what then? I just think real spirituality is an important issue that's almost completely ignored and that more people would accomplish their dreams and goals if they had a better knowledge base to start. I mean, most people spend their entire lives believing that work and food and family is all that life has to offer. introducing spirituality through cartoon media may be better than nothing, but it's certainly not nearly as good as presenting spirituality honestly.

    If you were a gamer, how would you tell the difference between a gamer-fan-website, and an astral projection website? An anime-avatar website and a kundalini website?
    Most gamers I know already have a fansite or website they're into- they don't learn to do 'stuffs', they want to talk about this or that character. If anything, the only thing they learn from those anime sites is maybe some cultural context about other cultures (like we talk about Abe Lincoln or MLKing, they may be exposed to eastern cultural icons), something they probably won't learn in regular school, so I consider it a good thing.

    so do you think that this website, spiritual books, and spiritual teachers will always exist? the future i see coming has access to information restricted, and access to entertainment unlimited.

    Of course, to the layperson, both excerpts seem equal in regards to believability and strangeness, fantasy and pragmatism, in their likelihood to empower and in their likelihood to be a total waste of time. To the gamer, meditation is a waste and gaming is a worthy pursuit. To the truth seeker, the inverse is true. But how is the truth seeker to recognize the spiritual path if, at a young age, they began systematic predictive-programming that prevent them from recognizing it?
    But the same can be said of regular western culture, with IM and FB and smart phones and texting- they turn anyone into an ADD person, even if they didn't have the problem in the first place.
    I believe the spiritual path is a calling, that propels you to look for answers, and will continue to pull you until you find whatever suits you. If you feel the call something like an anime site will not be interesting to you. So IMO it's not the medium that's important, it's the drive itself.


    i agree about the calling and the drive, but i question what future generations will find once they seek the truth.

    Spiritual practice is the only liberation from the entrapments of illusion, maya, samsara.
    I won't argue this because it's the truth for me, but I'm sure some will disagree with you.
    If liberation appears to be a childish game,
    I don't think that any of these things cause anyone to think this is liberation, just like religious rituals never did take the place of firsthand mystical experience. I don't think that just because cartoons depict eastern spirituality as a sort of 'superhero' achievement this means that it will be confused with liberation- if anything, it is just the westernization of these ideas what changes their focus, and let's face it, the western mindset was there in the first place.

    then what truth seeker would choose liberation? In other words, if one doesn’t’ believe in Santa clause, doesn’t believe in Naruto, why should one believe in Chakras and therefore pursue enlightenment?
    You don't have to believe in chakras to pursue enlightenment- you don't even need to understand chakras to run energy, but you want to want to do it, and that's what matters, IMO. The call, the drive, is what matters, IMO.

    in this context i'm concerned that it's a "terd in the punchbowl" so to speak. it only takes one terd to ruin the whole thing.

    Spiritual teachings are a blessing from the learned elders of our past. By absorbing the wisdom of their teachings, we can see things that were formerly invisible; we can chart our own course in the universe, our destiny. Without them, humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes (or worse) with each successive generation.
    That is true about any history of any culture.

    …………………à ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢ €¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â⠂¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚ ¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦..


    New spiritual aspirants are immediately met with their own inadequacy: their inability to concentrate, inability to remain still, inability to remember what they're supposed to be doing, difficulty in overcoming boredom, etc. In order to advance on a spiritual path, one must overcome one’s self; a minimum level of humility is definitely required.
    Again, the opposite is true in cartoon media and in video games especially. Those activities reward hubris, aggressiveness, selfishness, a sense of entitlement and boasting. Staring at a screen or even playing a video game does not require concentration but it does require quickly adapting to rapidly changing visual stimuli.
    So what I’m tried to illustrate above is that the contextual framework that is developed is considerably different and that is shapes the character and therefore the behavior of the persons involved.
    If you look at how our cultures have evolved, you will see that survival required speed, fast thinking, and quick adaptability, so the tendency for the human to do the opposite from meditative or mystic practices have been there since day one. Only when culture become stable we see things like ashrams and monasteries and the like, and only selected members are able to live in these conditions.
    So it's a cultural thing, and anime and cartoon media is just a reflection of how society works- like I said before, there is always something of a mixed bag of tendencies when you have a mixed bag of people living together.

    So do I think it's a bad thing? No, I think those that can handle deep spiritual things 'get it' even from Naruto or Dragonball Z (OK, maybe not from DBZ) but these media, which are, by the way, modernized storytelling that has always been part of chinese or japanese culture, only in electronic media- the story of DragonBall (the original with Goku) are just the stories that were told to children from the Monkey King/God- in cartoon form.
    Is it 'polluted' or 'wrong'? I don't think so, I just think that when you popularize mythology something gets lost, just like what the Hercules movies did to Greek Mythology,

    So, no, I don't agree with your viewpoint.
    Which is OK, if we all had the same viewpoint the world would be so boring!


    ===
    ps. sorry about the smelling pistakes, I'm in a hurry. Hurry hurry hurry![/quote]

    ok here is a question for you: without spiritual teachings, without cartoon media, pretending that the words meditation, karma, kundalini, samadahi, etc. don't exist, how does one go about discovering these things on their own?

  10. #30
    sleeper Guest

    Re: barriers to expanding consciousness

    also,

    CF - thanks for the long reply. it's always a joy when you share your thoughts with me.

    ~dale

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