Meditation and sleep

[enoch]

So how do I interpret RBs excerises on entering the trance state in AD? Or are there different definitions?

Trance is just another word for "focused attention" in an altered state of consciousness. I think everyone is getting too hung up on terminology. Do what works for you. It doesn't matter if you are focusing on a word, on nothing, or some visual that gets you to a relaxed state. The relaxed state is what's important in hypnotherapy or in astral traveling. How you get there is a very personal choice and of little importance. That's one reason that in hypnotherapy you can find thousands of different CD's with all different kinds of techniques to calm you. Anxiety is one of the biggest things that people come to hypnotherapy for. It also seems to be at the root of many problems. And, that's a huge reason why people can't relax. I think that getting hung up on the terminology is just another anxiety increaser, and is not necessary. Call it whatever you want that makes you happy. Just make sure it gets you to the relaxed state.

[enoch]

Have you read AD, PHG?

Almost through it. Enoch, would you mind posting the pages that you are referring to. I skimmed through a lot of Part 1 as most of the info I had already learned and practiced through RB's tutorials and other teacher's books. I'm not sure what that has to do with varying definitions of trance. No one is the final authority on it or anything.

[Freawaru]

Hi Patty,

I have started a thread on meditation on the "Devellopment" forum. Maybe it will clarify my position that trance and meditation/contemplation are different....

I already read it, Freawaru. I found it interesting, but it had the opposite effect on me than what I think you were trying to have me understand. When comparing the various "altered states", the Buddhists and Hindus can't even come to an agreement. The varying degrees of consciousness are given different titles and meanings, with various nuances. I've done some research on this subject because of the altered states that I have reached.

I've come to a point where I prefer to wing it than name it. In other words, I'm into the experience, not trying to define or categorize it. I recognize that defining is important to a lot of people. And, I respect that. When I offer my thoughts on a subject, that's all it is...my thoughts. I don't pretend to have the answers, but I also don't think anyone else has the answers. People often try to make their experience "fit" with something someone else has described. We are all unique and it makes me sad to see people trying to reach something that someone else has described as the ultimate or best way to experience it. It all goes back to the competition to see who is the most enlightened. And, my personal thoughts are that competition is not good for the soul.

Freawaru said:

As usual I will have to disagree about the terminology. You describe trance, Aunt Clair, it has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is not about clairvoiance or recieving visions or guidance, nor about planes or bodies, but about transcendenting the self. One primary goal is detachment (kaivalya) from the karmic self. All this spiritual devellopment and trance teaching is - for meditation - a hinderance and distraction.

When your goal and teaching is to devellop the person spiritually it is just that: devellopment of the person. It keeps the illusion that you ARE the person in the first place and even strenghthens it. Meditation on the other hand returns you to detachment from this illusion towards Liberation. All true meditational "states" are always independent of everything created and karmic. It cannot be develloped as it is eternal, unchangeable.

I think that both of these are important for advancement of the soul. We are here to experience and develop spiritually as humans. Aunt Clair gave a very good definition of what that is all about. Detachment from the illusion helps us in understanding what the soul really is. For me, both are personal goals and important. If a person chooses to live completely for the body, materialism and denial of the soul are the traps you can fall in to. On the other hand, spending vast amounts of time in the detached state can lead a person to missing the whole reason we are here...we are God experiencing. As in all things, a balance is important.

[stargazer]

Thanks all for contributing to this thread, this has made for some great reading... I'm new to meditation/trancework and have been trying to make it a daily thing. I am not interested in meditation as an end unto itself, but as a vehicle to do other work... clairvoyance, more intense energy work, core image removal, AP/phasing. As a neophyte it's very challenging to know if you're making progress or not, but I figure I'll keep doing it daily til it's second nature. It's also hard way back down here at the bottom of the mountain to imagine what some of the higher gradients are like, i.e. with clairvoyance to make the bridge between seeing black behind your eyes and seeing full color visions. What do the inbetween gradients look like? How to know you're on the right path? etc?? My book on clairvoyance says that at first it will be darkness behind your eyes, and that with time that will change. (And it doesn't go into much detail about how / how long, it just says it will change) Then it goes into exercises with changing your vision screen different colors, red, white, green, blue, etc. It's grasping the inbetweens that I find challenging because it's not like there's a MAP-like manual to tell you you're on the right path. I'm just going to keep practicing, practicing, practicing and hope that some of the more advanced stuff makes sense as it occurs, rather than worry about how it will eventually manifest, it in advance. It's just so easy to fall prey to the doubtful mind that says "Clairvoyance? Inner guided meditations to a medicine place? Pfft! Never seen it before, why would you see it now!"

My only time for meditation is unfortunately at night as well, but I've found that it enhances my sleep. It's just easier unfortunately to fall asleep while meditating, so I've taken to sitting up so that if I fall asleep too deeply, I jerk back awake, because the trance-like naps aren't doing anything for me but making me want to get up and go to bed.

In Aunt Clair's lovely breakdown (Thank you)

Aspirants - Have no problem keeping conscious mind quiet, it's staying awake that's the problem. And lately, hypnagogic voices are so chatty!
Can enjoy a good half hour of meditation that flies by.

Quality of Visuals -
I saw one thing it was indigo and green. Shape of an eye. Comes up quite often.

Quality of Auditory Stimulus
I heard a voice in my head , was it my imagiination ?

Trance
Can achieve a light trance briefly in the middle of a 30 minute session

Last night was a good session. I was able to get comfortable and relaxed very quickly. I did some RB mental falling techniques and took a passive approach, where if a thought entered my mind, I'd idly let it pass. Before long, I found myself wavering back and forth between a "lighter" and "darker" state, that is.. I'd flash into a lighter state where the darkness behind my eyes seemed lighter and I was aware of the room, and realize that I had just flipped out of a darker state, where I had almost zero body and room awareness and was meandering down some thought path I wasn't in control of. The darker state is very nice, it's a very comfy, close, dark, introspective "inward focused" state, but it's also fairly close to falling asleep and harder to control or be aware of.

I was in a lighter state and became aware of hypnagogic / thought echo-like voices, and BOY were they chatty!!! I take it as what'll be my next challenge, to get those chattery voices under control. (See because if I let them chat away or start paying too close attention to what they're saying, I fall asleep.) I'm very interested in that particular state... awake but hearing the hypnagogic voices. What was interesting too was that they seemed locational... at one point, a male voice located at my left (that in my dreamy state thought was my boyfriend sitting next to me), moved off and away from me. I had the funny thought at that point of realizing that I was meditating alone. Like "OH that's right, I'm meditating here in the bedroom by myself!" It took the "male presence" on my left moving away from me to make me have this realization. As if I had flipped between, "I'm alone and it's funny to feel as if I'm in a group of people" and to a new half-asleep mentality of "I'm in a group of people and it's funny to feel as if I'm alone." I do not yet ascribe any importance to the group feeling, because the hypnagogic voices (at least in the beginning) are just as likely to be snippets and echoes from my day; voices of my co-workers, etc.

At this point, my body was very heavy and comfortable, and I did actually flick off into a dream, where I was sitting with a group of monks who were singing and playing drums, and I wasn't singing their chant which was too complicated but rather the "Rah Mah" chant which is a chant for raising the positive energy in an environment, to go along with the drums. Flicker back awake. Feel as if I'm done, and see that more than 30 minutes have passed. Get up and go to bed, and lie in bed feeling pretty awake.

Did the "change color of visual screen" beginners' clairvoyance exercise, in a "fake it til you make it mentality." Well, got a dot! And the dot would happily change colors for me. It's a start. Also caught a quick glimpse of a scrim of sky that was more like a "sense of a scrim of sky" than it was actual sky, but close enough to the "eyes wide shut" feeling I've had with a few accidental remote viewings while asleep that I'll call it a good bit of progress.

[Freawaru]

I already read it, Freawaru. I found it interesting, but it had the opposite effect on me than what I think you were trying to have me understand.

Ah, okay, lol. I see I have to work on my writing style

When comparing the various "altered states", the Buddhists and Hindus can't even come to an agreement. The varying degrees of consciousness are given different titles and meanings, with various nuances. I've done some research on this subject because of the altered states that I have reached.

Yes, I found the same. It even starts with colors of the chakras and auras. I think this is the result of images. There are universal symbols (I mean for all humans) and personal symbols. Altered states are percieved through the mind and it's symbols and images. Thus the same "program" will appear in trance according to ones beliefs, Christians see angels and Buddhists see daikinis and American shamans deceased relatives (and they really have a problem with me as I am not religious ).

But that changes when one reaches the unaltered state, the original one. Sunnata is identical in Buddhism and Hinduism and Christianity. See for example Meister Eckhart's sermon (and he lived in 13th century, no connection to Asia)

http://www.omalpha.com/jardin/meckhart52-imp.html

All Hindu and Buddhist I talked to so far agree that this spiritual Poverty is indeed sunnata, voidness. And it was this sermon that opened me to Christian mysticsm.

I've come to a point where I prefer to wing it than name it. In other words, I'm into the experience, not trying to define or categorize it.

A good devellopment, but how can you then talk about it?

We are all unique and it makes me sad to see people trying to reach something that someone else has described as the ultimate or best way to experience it.

Yes, this is typical for people well develloped in trance. I have heard it a lot.

It all goes back to the competition to see who is the most enlightened. And, my personal thoughts are that competition is not good for the soul.

See, that is what I mean. You have come to this conclusion by develloping the trance states. You get what you give and all that. People who are into meditation do not talk about this kind of things. Competition or the "program" of ambition provides no problem to me any more. I can cut it of (and I have to, for samadhi) or I can observe it in a detached, mindfull way. It is easy to recognize what kind of practice someone does by the results and by what opinion one has.

When you meditate ambition can be a good thing at the beginning. I recall that I was ambitious to get into trance and OBE and pyschic abilities. But for samadhi you have to let ambition go, if only for the session. In my case it vanished for years, though. Other emotions, fear and anger, for example vanished for some months - until I called them back.

It is possible to feel emotions in trance states but not in samatha meditation.

I think that both of these are important for advancement of the soul.

BOTH, indeed!

We are here to experience and develop spiritually as humans.

Agreed, it is a Game.

Detachment from the illusion helps us in understanding what the soul really is. For me, both are personal goals and important.

For me only trance is a personal goal. (Meditation is impersonal). And I call upon my little demon ambition to reach it...

If a person chooses to live completely for the body, materialism and denial of the soul are the traps you can fall in to. On the other hand, spending vast amounts of time in the detached state can lead a person to missing the whole reason we are here...we are God experiencing. As in all things, a balance is important.

Balance it is

[Freawaru]

Last night was a good session. I was able to get comfortable and relaxed very quickly. I did some RB mental falling techniques and took a passive approach, where if a thought entered my mind, I'd idly let it pass. Before long, I found myself wavering back and forth between a "lighter" and "darker" state, that is.. I'd flash into a lighter state where the darkness behind my eyes seemed lighter and I was aware of the room, and realize that I had just flipped out of a darker state, where I had almost zero body and room awareness and was meandering down some thought path I wasn't in control of. The darker state is very nice, it's a very comfy, close, dark, introspective "inward focused" state, but it's also fairly close to falling asleep and harder to control or be aware of.

Your "dark state" sounds a lot like what I experience when either crossing fromj sleep to wake or vice versa. I printed an experience here:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2428

In my experience this state is easy to control when I am not low on sleep. When I am still tired and enter it I simply try to fall asleep again. I am not yet sure what kind of trance it is but I think it might come in handy in crossing over into sleep and dream lucidly.

[Aunt Clair]

As usual I will have to disagree about the terminology. You describe trance, Aunt Clair, it has nothing to do with meditation.

Perhaps it is your English here Freewaru . But are you implying that trance has nothing to do with meditation ? If so you are mistaken , if not please be more precise in your attempts at critical commentary , thank you .

Meditation is not about clairvoiance or recieving visions or guidance, nor about planes or bodies, but about transcendenting the self.

This is your opinion but it is not a truth . Meditation is most certainly about clairvoyance and receiving visions . If this is not the case for you then you may lack the motivation , the energy , the interest , the aptitude or the skills . Everyone can attain these skills .They develop in a continuum .If your meditation consists of nothingness ,then you need to go beyond that state . The planes were authored by the Godhead for humans to travel to so that we might learn to better ourselves ,our condition and each other . Sitting in nothingness is futile , puerile and senseless . One might as well stop existing , it would have the same effect .

One primary goal is detachment (kaivalya) from the karmic self. All this spiritual devellopment and trance teaching is - for meditation - a hinderance and distraction.

Again this is your opinion . I have found that spiritual development and trance meditation has helped me and my mates in alchemy circle to achieve the Lesser Work , the Great Work , the completion of the Emerald Tablet and the continued development of the human energy body . We have completed the RHP and the LHP and now I am pioneering now upon the Middle Pillar Path where no alchemist has gone before me . I do not find this path worthless . We are finding release from karmic debts and we are finding our paths worthwhile . Your own meanderings, on the otherhand ,seem to make you skeptical , cynical and derisive . I cannot think that this path of yours has helped you to attain samadhi. Since you write that you have not attained skills and your demeanor suggests that you have not attained bliss , I feel that your path has not been worthwhile to you . I have seen and communicated with Buddha and the Christ . I have travelled with them to Shamballah and learned in their presence with my mates .These are the blessings of clairvoyant communication in meditative trance . These are the irreplaceable and priceless treasures of my life . Anyone can do this . Why should they sit and blank their minds out instead . That eliminates stress for a while but it does not teach you anything at all . I am working , I am trying . I am not hitting the reset button on the video game of my life and sitting in the dark .

"You may lead or you may follow ,or you must just get out of the way", said the mother duck to her ducklings . You are doing nothing here in this style of posting . You are not leading .You are not following .You are merely ridiculing an ancient method and using this angst to attack me personally . It does not do any good to teach people to sit and contemplate their navel and the illusion of their state of being . Why not try to aspire to greater things ? This is my aim . What is yours in writing to me as you do ?

When your goal and teaching is to devellop the person spiritually it is just that: devellopment of the person. It keeps the illusion that you ARE the person in the first place and even strenghthens it.

I disagree antithetically with your persuasion herein. Alchemy is an ancient art studied by great minds . It is a hope for humanity to raise the vibration of base man . Sitting upon a pillow thinking of nothingness is the auto eroticism that Ratzinger harbinged on about , it gives meditation a bad name .

Meditation on the other hand returns you to detachment from this illusion towards Liberation. All true meditational "states" are always independent of everything created and karmic. It cannot be develloped as it is eternal, unchangeable.

Truer meditation does not exist in zoning out but in going deeper within .
You cannot win the game by trying to pretend that it is not there anymore .