I agree. And many religious people don't believe in an afterlife anyway, when it comes down to it.Originally Posted by turbulenceadams
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I agree. And many religious people don't believe in an afterlife anyway, when it comes down to it.
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Yes but majority of atheist do not believe in after life...that was my point...and not believing in after life may not be the wisest thing to do.
Also, it is not good for our well being in this world, you may disagree but this was my personal experience!
To me, it is very simple...believe in something positive and have a happy life...as simple as that...
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That's right, I can attest to it out of my own experience. Don't ask my why I committed this folly, maybe because I had quit church officially a short time before I registered there (in my country you are "born/baptised into" a religion) and was fed up with religionism in general and the power of the church in my country, so I joined an Atheist forum a few years ago (now I'm out of it again or only post there pretty sporadically once in half a year or so...).Yes but majority of atheist do not believe in after life...that was my point...and not believing in after life may not be the wisest thing to do.
Some (mostly strictly orthodox, some even fundamental) Christians were present there too and both parties were battling each other - no other groups in sight. I had thought otherwise before, because I never was an ant-spiritual person and hoped for more "free thinkers" there. But there are none!
Actually there were only extreme dogmatists fighing amongst each other. Consequently, after a while I - as the only esoteric/spriritual/metaphysical free-thinker - felt pretty alone there.
I can confirm that 99% of the Atheists there were/are strict dogmatists. Their belief system comes "ready-made" with labels and pre-packed - all included.
That means they were strictly of the materialist/scientism-ist/anti-esoteric&spiritual/skeptic/debunk-ist kind. And therefore, it's simple: there is NO SOUL, NO GOD(S), NO AFTERLIFE, NO OTHER DIMENSIONS OF EXISTENCE, NO OBEs -- It's all the brain/evolution, ... blahblahblah ... . Period. As easy as that. No discussion.
They were so rigidly trapped in a world view that allowed for no compromises. Of course, they would never call their world view a BELIEF system, since they have the "absolute (scientific) truth" behind them. They don't see that in their own way they created a belief and even a religion. But try it to make clear to them , as I did then in some futile attempts in posts, ... hopeless and frustrating.
„Most vocal non-believers and closed-minded skeptics are as wrapped up in their beliefs as those they ridicule or disagree with. The main difference is that they are more apt to deny that their beliefs are beliefs. (...) These folks are sure, that if they and their peer group have no direct experience of a larger reality, the larger reality must be the product of delusion. (The delusional always believe that they are non-delusional and that the non-delusional are delusional - such ist the nature of delusion.)“ - Thomas Campbell
This collector of useless clutter.
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I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories.....
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"Stop acting as if life is a rehearsal" Dr. Wayne Dyer.
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"I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories....."
the whaty-what-what?!
CFT, I love your story! Man, you are so brave! I could never teach a class! But that's really cool how openminded they all were.
Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
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I can answer that one because I have been there...
I am surrounded by atheists, and in fact there is only one religious friend I have, the rest are all atheists.
Many do not know anything about quantum physics. When I try to explain it, they look at me with empty eyes, like I am lying. When I show them some proof thru published articles, they seem to get interested but eventually many forgot about it after some time and completely lost interest. Can't blame them, its kinda hard to grasb quantum theories.
Very few know about QM. And they acknowledge the weirdness in quantum physics - I was one of them in the past. But eventually QM doesn't show any proof about soul and the continuity of consciousness after death, so they still consider after life as a wishful thinking. There was absoulately no way that I would accept after life if it wasn't for my OBE experience...
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Ok, I'll explain very simply and nonscientifically- the Copenhagen interpretation postulates that a quantum particle has two states- wave (also known as everywhere at once; no time) and particle- or, can be found in spacetime. According to the CI a quantum particle only becomes a particle (or, can be found in timespace) when measured or observed.
It has a few interpretations- that observation creates reality (not really, but something like this) or that observation shapes it. Very close but not exactly the same.
and the Bohmian implicate order says that the wave/particle duality inherent in any quantum particle is an indication that we only 'see' the wave/particle duality because we can only see part of the picture- that reality is something more that we haven't figured out how to detect, and that for example, entangled particles are actually views of the same thing, just as you and I are different views of the same thing. He goes on to describe it with the probe/tv analogy of a fishtank.
I didn't even include Everett's Many World Theories because it's too far out for skeptics to even entertain, much less consider seriously.
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"Stop acting as if life is a rehearsal" Dr. Wayne Dyer.
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Greetings all
CFT
Thanx for sharing that story, I found it quite interesting. I am
a) surprised to hear that people in a Christian church were that open to the idea of OBE/AP (and even to the extent of deliberately trying to induce them!) and
b) doubly surprised to find that up to twenty percent of those people actually managed to make it OOB! Especially given that they were older persons who, as a rule, are more set in their ways, especially regarding the negative 'leanings' that mainstream Christianity has towards OBEs.
A quick aside about the CI of quantum physics. The particle location and the wavelength of a photon can Not be simultaneously measured because 1) If a particle is measured then the amount of extra light that it takes to find or locate the particle state excites the wavelength state to the point that the wavelength cannot be measured and
2) if the wavelength is measured then the amount of light is insufficient to simultaneously measure the location. If that sounds confusing it is because it IS confusing. This eventually prompted some scientist to theorize that the particle location and energy wavelength of a photon Can be measured simultaneously in a higher dimension. This, in turn, partially led to the theories of alternate or parallel universes.
Regards
Grey
Senior Member
I was thinking about taking a physics class at my local college because I am just thirstin' for knowledge, and I don't do very well with just reading about it in books.
Thank you for explaining CI. That is very interesting!
Something I have been pondering lately...do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? What if your consciousness just kind of evaporates after death? Or what if you just sort of melt back into the big ocean of superconsciousness (GOD, Source).
Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
New Member
This is a great question. Can't wait what the experts i.e. CFTraveler and Caterpillarwoman would say about this...do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? What if your consciousness just kind of evaporates after death? Or what if you just sort of melt back into the big ocean of superconsciousness (GOD, Source).
I think it does prove in my opinion. When I get out of my body I haven't travel any places, I just stay at my apartment and go back to my body. So I haven't met any spirits etc. But I am a newbie. Others seen all these spirits and they argue they are not part of our subconscious creation - so their existence prove after life- in my opinion.
Gee, you put some doubt in my mind tho...I gotta struggle with this question now...lol
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