Difficult Spiritual Awakenings, Perceptions, Related Topics

[heliac]

Split from: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8911&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I don't really know all that much about kundalini so i shouldn't really even comment on things like the consequences of it but i will. i just can't help but feel instinctively that if it is approached in a sound and down to earth way that a lot of the consequences are minimized.

It just seems like sometimes people who talk about their kundalini describe it almost like a brutal hazing and that they are proud to have endured so that they can now have a nice big ultimate spiritual merit badge.Does being able to endure psychosis really need to be an intrinsic value in anyone attempting to raise kundalini?

[Tutor]

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[ButterflyWoman]

i just can't help but feel instinctively that if it is approached in a sound and down to earth way that a lot of the consequences are minimized.

Quite possibly. But it is still, pardon the metaphor, playing with fire.

Also, I don't sense that you're interpreting instinctively, but rather, reactively.

It just seems like sometimes people who talk about their kundalini describe it almost like a brutal hazing and that they are proud to have endured so that they can now have a nice big ultimate spiritual merit badge.

Some people might, but quite possibly (and even probably, at least in some of your assessments and statements) you're projecting your own stuff onto what people say.

[heliac]

Also, I don't sense that you're interpreting instinctively, but rather, reactively.

I'm not too sure what you mean by interpreting reactively vs instinctively.Gut feelings are reactions no? An unconscious reflexive sensing/feeling reaction.I don't really know anything about kundalini from experience so when i am interpreting statements made by others about the phenomenon and comparing there statements with how i feel when i read them i can report, for what it is worth , that i feel like the formidable symptoms and consequenses that come with raising kundalini could be cut down if it is approached in a way that is down to earth.I guess this could possibly be projecting as well although a form of naive optimistic projection?But when i mull this idea over, it feels right to me, in my gut. There is only one way to find out for sure though right!!

I appreciate your feedback on this, you are getting the wheels churning

Some people might, but quite possibly (and even probably, at least in some of your assessments and statements) you're projecting your own stuff onto what people say.

I could be projecting, even if i were, it is still quite possibly true that some people who claim to have experienced kundalini describe the events as a hazing into the spiritually elite. Whether spiritual elitism is something that should be condoned or encouraged or left alone or something else i am not thinking of would be an interesting discussion as well. I definitely see what you mean about the projecting, as spiritual elitism just rubs me the wrong way and i am almost definitely reading that into others experiences in some cases. This also might stem from a lack in actual experience.

Freud's ideas of projection would be another nice discussion I would very much like to see what other statements and assessments you have interpreted of mine as projections.

[heliac]

Hi Tim,

I think i only got about 1/8th of what you said up here I think you are saying in here somewhere that one does not need the ability to endure psychosis as a pre-requisite to the kundalini experience.That is very nice to hear.Would you say that major consequences, like the ones that would be discouraging, are a result of the practitioner doing something wrong in the process of deliberate awakening?Or is suffering just a part of the kundalini experience and there is nothing we can do about it and if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

I like the comparison you've made with climbing mount everest, and getting "summit fever", that makes a lot of sense.

[ButterflyWoman]

I could be projecting, even if i were [...]

If you are, even a little, you need to examine that. WHY are you bothered by what you perceive to be some sort of bragging? What about that bugs you? Why do you think someone being glad to have survived an ordeal is wrong? Etcetera.

it is still quite possibly true that some people who claim to have experienced kundalini describe the events as a hazing into the spiritually elite.

I said it was possible. However, I think the term "spiritually elite" is something you have in your own psyche, hence the notion that this is something that could bear exploring. Where is that coming from, and why?

Whether spiritual elitism is something that should be condoned or encouraged or left alone or something else i am not thinking of would be an interesting discussion as well.

Okay. I split this topic to its own discussion thread.

But I can tell you for sure, I don't feel "elite", spiritually or otherwise. I don't think Robert Bruce does, either (I've certainly never picked up on any such thing from him, in public or private conversation).

This whole idea of "spiritual elitism" is incorrectly placed. It's actually "egotistical elitism" that you're talking about. Only the ego would get all worked up about some "spiritual achievement" or whatever. I see it all the time, and it just makes me roll my eyes, because it's so blatantly ego-being-ego.

And, frankly, I suspect that in a lot of cases, it's not that the person talking about having a difficult Kundalini awakening or other spiritual emergency, so much as the listener's own ego interpreting their own stuff (subconscious fears of inferiority, etc.).

[EDITED TO ADD] I went out and had a life for a few hours (lunch, movie, grocery shopping, etc) and was thinking about this topic some more, because it kind of intrigues me.

Suppose instead of having a "spiritual" framework around it, the process was described in terms of materialism, i.e., let's say we framed it as "mental illness". In fact, I did frame my experience that way for a long time, because I just didn't have any other way to look at it (only in retrospect can I see that it was a transformation and awakening process, and only after that did I attach the term "Kundalini" to it). My framework was of recovering from an abusive childhood. My framework was that of a complete mental and emotional breakdown, for the purpose of healing.

If someone relates their story of having a breakdown, ending up in the psych ward, having to undergo years of soul searching and some degree of therapy, of getting to the point that they saw and felt that they didn't really exist at all (while those around them try to convince them they're wrong), and of slowly rebuilding their sense of self, identity, and mental and emotional health, would that be boasting? Would it be "mental health elitism"? No? Yes? If not, why not? If yes, why? What makes it different to put a different frame around it? What does the context switch do to the narrative to possibly make it something else?

That's what I meant by projection. It's about your own framework, your own way of looking at things. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about any particular bias, nothing good or evil, but being aware of one's own biases and filters when you can is very helpful in releasing attachments and allowing yourself a broader view of life, the universe, and everything.

You can call that "spiritual" if you want to, of course, but that, like everything else, is just a label, just context...

[Tutor]

Hi Tim,

I think i only got about 1/8th of what you said up here I think you are saying in here somewhere that one does not need the ability to endure psychosis as a pre-requisite to the kundalini experience.That is very nice to hear.Would you say that major consequences, like the ones that would be discouraging, are a result of the practitioner doing something wrong in the process of deliberate awakening?Or is suffering just a part of the kundalini experience and there is nothing we can do about it and if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

I like the comparison you've made with climbing mount everest, and getting "summit fever", that makes a lot of sense.

Hi heliac,

truly, i do not know. each as an individual experiences as they uniquely 'do', the human gamut of being. as far as being really awakened goes, why does one have to experience kundalini period to be awakened? i dont see that as an apparent sequential requirement. could be that one has already had the experience in a prior lifetime, or perhaps prior is merely parallel life. oddly we talk of prior "past lives", but toward the future we see death and speak of "afterlife". these are two very different views. from this present life it seems safe to wistfully assume a mysterious "past" beyond this life, because our entrance was birth, and not death. looking forward we see death, the end of this present person who is postulating the speculatory.

tim

[psionickx]

if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

A large faction of people are K-awakened and reached such a state with no emotional/physical/psychological suffering or discomfort.

[heliac]

Hey CW,

Yes that sounds right i think i am talking more about spiritual vanity or egotistical elitism that is probably a better way to put it.

I was not referring to you about being kundalini elite. I don't remember reading anything in particular about your kundalini experience specifically. I definitely was not referring to RObert either. After chatting with Robert a little bit here and there online, one of the main reasons why i am attracted to robert's teachings is he is the opposite of elitism, he seems like he is "one of the guys". Although, one of the guys that is incredibly knowledgeable and respectable and he always seems to know exactlly what to say in terms of practical advise.

I'm sorry to hear about your abusive childhood, but it is wonderful to hear about your healing from the abuse and i think it is great how open you are about it. Most people would shy away from the topic.

I would imagine the context of the description of the kundalini experience could be interpreted very differently depending on who you are talking to.

Do you think that a rough kundalini experience has conditions. A rough experience could be related to past trauma, perhaps in the case of spontaneous awakenings. A rough experience could also be related to going about the process wrong in deliberate awakenings.

If the process of awakening is gone about in the right way and if you just so happen to be lucky enough to not have any major past trauma do you think the chances of having a rough experience are minimized.

[heliac]

if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

A large faction of people are K-awakened and reached such a state with no emotional/physical/psychological suffering or discomfort.

Hi psionickx,

In these cases, is it known why people included in this faction reached k-awakened with no or minimal emotional/psychological suffering or discomfort?