Lucid Dreaming and Lucid Thinking

[Presence]

Has anyone been able to do anything with the perspective that dreams and thoughts are basically the same other than the change of our attention, focus, and overall consciousness which is involved. I believe that to this day, and wonder if anyone else does.

I noticed a distinction that dreams have as it relates to "scene changes". I found that they were very inconsistent with how it happens in waking reality: one moment you could be on a bridge, you turn around, and the next you can be in a field. This to me reminds me of our thoughts and how they link together. Often when we fall into a thinking trace, scenes will link together based on 1 bit of information, for example, you're remembering about your family BBQ, and all the interesting things that happen. Say you play chess with your uncle at that BBQ and you see yourself playing, that could connect you into your most recent memory of playing chess with a friend in the park by which the entire environment switches instantly so you can visualize that memory. Which can then lead you to an ambition you may have to play chess with a grand master which has a completely different environment (and characters, feelings, etc.).

This sort of understanding got me to try something similar to lucid/vivid dreaming, but with thinking. I waited until my mind started naturally visualizing a thought, then recognized it, held onto the environment, started asking questions, and tried to just allow everything to happen without creating anything consciously. It led me on a fascinating trip through my mind, which I won't get into the details here, but I felt was a pretty successful start.

Anyway, this leads me to believe that if I can continuously recognize when I'm in a thought trance (it happens a lot...actually), hold on to that environment, and become aware that I'm thinking while aware of the environment, I will create a habit which will effect the ability to become aware in dreams.

[wstein]

Has anyone been able to do anything with the perspective that dreams and thoughts are basically the same other than the change of our attention, focus, and overall consciousness which is involved. I believe that to this day, and wonder if anyone else does.

In short no.
For me most thoughts are not dreams. It’s not clear if dreams are just thoughts but I am of the opinion that dream worlds are real in the same sense as the physical world.

This sort of understanding got me to try something similar to lucid/vivid dreaming, but with thinking. I waited until my mind started naturally visualizing a thought, then recognized it, held onto the environment, started asking questions, and tried to just allow everything to happen without creating anything consciously. It led me on a fascinating trip through my mind, which I won't get into the details here, but I felt was a pretty successful start.

Anyway, this leads me to believe that if I can continuously recognize when I'm in a thought trance (it happens a lot...actually), hold on to that environment, and become aware that I'm thinking while aware of the environment, I will create a habit which will effect the ability to become aware in dreams.

It’s an interesting alternative approach to becoming lucid.

FYI there is an advanced lucid dreaming technique where you become lucid within a dream but not part of the dreams. This lucid “watcher” observes the action but does not participate in it. This is a much easier perspective for dream alteration (also advanced lucid dreaming skill). Combined with the regular in-dream lucid dreaming, you can both experience the dream and alter it from the outside at the same time. This relates to what you are saying as the lucid watcher can watch the thoughts of the in-dream self. It’s also possible to awaken the watcher while awake and watch your own thoughts from an outside perspective WHILE going on with your daily activities. This is an excellent way to ‘discover’ habits and correct them.

[Summerlander]

Has anyone been able to do anything with the perspective that dreams and thoughts are basically the same other than the change of our attention, focus, and overall consciousness which is involved. I believe that to this day, and wonder if anyone else does.

I do. To me, dreams are the way in which we perceive the realm of thoughts with a focus that is more acute than the one we have during the waking state. During the waking state, thoughts seem vague and almost non-existent, but, once we focus/become the thought of us (dream body/dream self), we can perceive thoughts quite clearly (however illogical they may seem). Lucid dreaming is when we acquire the best focus there because we are basically awake in the dream world.

I noticed a distinction that dreams have as it relates to "scene changes". I found that they were very inconsistent with how it happens in waking reality: one moment you could be on a bridge, you turn around, and the next you can be in a field. This to me reminds me of our thoughts and how they link together. Often when we fall into a thinking trace, scenes will link together based on 1 bit of information, for example, you're remembering about your family BBQ, and all the interesting things that happen. Say you play chess with your uncle at that BBQ and you see yourself playing, that could connect you into your most recent memory of playing chess with a friend in the park by which the entire environment switches instantly so you can visualize that memory. Which can then lead you to an ambition you may have to play chess with a grand master which has a completely different environment (and characters, feelings, etc.).

I know exactly what you are talking about and I've made such connections too. Often thoughts will collide with one another, and, from the mishmash, creativity is born as a few thought-compounds may be deemed useful. Our brains are very much computerised.

This sort of understanding got me to try something similar to lucid/vivid dreaming, but with thinking. I waited until my mind started naturally visualizing a thought, then recognized it, held onto the environment, started asking questions, and tried to just allow everything to happen without creating anything consciously. It led me on a fascinating trip through my mind, which I won't get into the details here, but I felt was a pretty successful start.

You are on the right track here, my friend. By the way, I have a proposition for you. I'm gonna PM you about it.

Anyway, this leads me to believe that if I can continuously recognize when I'm in a thought trance (it happens a lot...actually), hold on to that environment, and become aware that I'm thinking while aware of the environment, I will create a habit which will effect the ability to become aware in dreams.

Do you like Stephen LaBerge? I recommend his Exploring The World of Lucid Dreaming​. If you don't have it already, get it. You will love the exercises there.

[Presence]

Wstein:

FYI there is an advanced lucid dreaming technique where you become lucid within a dream but not part of the dreams. This lucid “watcher” observes the action but does not participate in it. This is a much easier perspective for dream alteration (also advanced lucid dreaming skill). Combined with the regular in-dream lucid dreaming, you can both experience the dream and alter it from the outside at the same time. This relates to what you are saying as the lucid watcher can watch the thoughts of the in-dream self.

I think that this is where I will be at if the new habit starts effecting lucidity in dreams. I've been experimenting with this one for a couple days now, and it is challenging to transition from the observer perspective to one where it's like I'm a character in the dream. Often times when I do try to transition, I'll lose the environment, or my waking reality will flicker in and distract me.

Summerlander:

You are on the right track here, my friend. By the way, I have a proposition for you. I'm gonna PM you about it.

I have responded to your Pm

Do you like Stephen LaBerge? I recommend his Exploring The World of Lucid Dreaming​. If you don't have it already, get it. You will love the exercises there.

I've never heard of the guy, actually. I will have a look around, thanks.

[Korpo]

Hello, Presence.

Maybe it would come together for you if you switch perspective a little.

You made astute observations about the discontinuity of thoughts and the discontinuity of dreams. I would say one is rooted in the other, in that in the dream world, thought creates reality rather quickly. This is similar to the problem beginning astral projectors have in that your thoughts attract you to environments - this can create problems when trying to stay in an environment or go to a certain place.

It all comes down to the state of your mind. I have seen meditation/concentration techniques that encourage staying with a thought you had. I would tend to think this would have the purpose of producing this continuity of state of consciousness I was referring to. I also imagine it to be the same thing as what is referred to as "one-pointed focus" or "one-pointed mind".

So, some training in this discipline, termed "mind taming" or "concentration" or "mind control", can IMO help stabilise dreams and other nonphysical experiences, which might in turn be helpful for exploring them further.

Cheers,
Oliver

[Korpo]

PS - you can trace the same or a similar quality by observing habits like forgetfulness.

Let's say there's something you want to do, but you go to the toilet first, and after have forgotten what you wanted to do. Similary, if you leave the room, you might forget what you wanted to do by the time you arrived at your destination.

You could look at this from the perspective of mental continuity. One good exercise I have found for example is to trace your actions backwards in memory till you have arrived at what you originally tried to do. Similarly you can do this in conversations that meander a bit from topic to topic - you can try to unwind this back into where the topic, for example to go full circle with what your "side thoughts" added to the original topic.

[wstein]

I think that this is where I will be at if the new habit starts effecting lucidity in dreams. I've been experimenting with this one for a couple days now, and it is challenging to transition from the observer perspective to one where it's like I'm a character in the dream. Often times when I do try to transition, I'll lose the environment, or my waking reality will flicker in and distract me.

One can also ADD the second perspective. Then you are both in and watching the dream at the same time.