Frustrated and unmotavated

[ProbableReality]

Hello, PR.

I just wondered if you ever tried the following: Lie down and make the conscious decision to let whatever comes up in your mind to let it happen. Do this for a time. Anything is okay. Let it play out. What happens? What do you remember? What do you feel afterward?

Sure. I fall asleep. My mind also has this weard way of conecting concepts and images that have nothing to do with one another. It's the same in my dreams. I remember one dream where I was shifting pan cakes around on the table but what I thaught I was doing was choosing the right computer program to kill the virus that lived in the pond in my back yard. Strainge right?

A general question if you don't mind: Why do you want to AP? What do you expect it to give you that another spiritual discipline can't?

Oliver

Oh a whole bunch of reasons. For one thing I want to see for myself if there is life after death. The tests you can perform when out of body to determine this are simple. All I need to do is find something to read when having an OBE. The part of the brain that process words and numbers is dormant when asleep witch is why they appear all jumbled and inconprehencable when dreaming about reading something. If i can read something it prooves that my consiousness is functioning apart from the functions of the brain. This will help overcome the fear of death as well as provide a posibility of contacting my dead father. Then there is simply the possibility of exploration and learning about the wider reality and about myself through personal experience.

Personal expereince is important to me as aposed to spiritual teachings. What others teach or claim to be true can only take you so far. I wouldn't say that I am a skeptic but that I want to be able to come to my own conclusions instead of take someone else's word on faith. I'm not good with faith.

[CFTraveler]

My mind also has this weard way of conecting concepts and images that have nothing to do with one another. It's the same in my dreams. I remember one dream where I was shifting pan cakes around on the table but what I thaught I was doing was choosing the right computer program to kill the virus that lived in the pond in my back yard. Strainge right?

Not really, you are just becoming aware of the indexing the subconscious does when you dream; it is actually normal. Surprising sometimes, but normal.

[Korpo]

Hello, ProbableReality.

It might be your reading test won't work. You don't actually read or do anything in nonphysical reality. You experience an energy transformation, and translate it into pictures, a story or a memory to recall when waking up. That also means that when you read in a dream you don't really pick up a book, you just represent to yourself some exchange of information.

As experience with the out-of-body experience and dreams increases, the translation improves. Nonsensical and absurd elements in dreams lessen, and more coherence and clarity is achieved. If your dreams don't make sense it is usually because you haven't paid much attention to them, and thus had no chance to develop these translation skills. The pictures you recall were the best your mind could come up with for what actually happened, energy-wise. It's just a bad translation.

That you additionally recall that you thought you were doing something else is actually a good sign. This already means you had two handles on the energetic experience - a picture translation and a "knowing-sense" translation. The "knowing-sense" is just this - knowing intuitively what is going on without being told. If you develop the later over time things will also make more sense just by themselves. Again, when people don't know why they are oblivious to absurdities in dreams, it also means there are still limitations in the working of this knowing-sense.

I have read in dreams and have failed to read in dreams. But to me this just means I have been exercising my information-extracting sense and the best picture I could find for that is a book. I have also read waymarkers, but I think that only meant I could get some handle on my navigation and position senses (see for example Kurt Leland's book "The Multi-Dimensional Human", it provides an in-depth description of the nonphysical senses). I have been training these senses over and over. And I wouldn't think there ever was a book, so also no actual reading (or even a relation to the same circuits in the brain, if any). If you read Robert Monroe's books you would even see how he received information as balls of energy, not even a remote relation to a book.

While many experiments people come up for the out-of-body state fail (and no wonder if it's not truly a quasi-physical world, but an energetic experience), I found for myself that just having the experiences I had still convinced me being more than my physical body and the existence of an afterlife. So, whatever you do, I think your quest would be ultimately successful in another way you thought.

Oliver

[Korpo]

Sure. I fall asleep.

Try it when sitting upright without back support.

Even if you would fall asleep, you would tilt forward, the motion wakes you up and you can restore position. This is actually good training for experiencing a trance state (mind awake, body asleep), since you constantly tilt back and forth across the sleep border till at some point you might manage to get into the right state to be not as asleep as usual and thus your mind would be still awake. It's a helpful practice when trying to achieve projection.

Oliver

[ProbableReality]

Hello, ProbableReality.

It might be your reading test won't work. You don't actually read or do anything in nonphysical reality. You experience an energy transformation, and translate it into pictures, a story or a memory to recall when waking up. That also means that when you read in a dream you don't really pick up a book, you just represent to yourself some exchange of information.

While many experiments people come up for the out-of-body state fail (and no wonder if it's not truly a quasi-physical world, but an energetic experience), I found for myself that just having the experiences I had still convinced me being more than my physical body and the existence of an afterlife. So, whatever you do, I think your quest would be ultimately successful in another way you thought.

Oliver

You know, I'm basing these ideas on the findings of the prominent authors and researchers of this subject not to mention the one who founded this website and yet I keep being refuted by the most prominent members of these forums. Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, William Buhlman and others all claim to have preformed similar tests of gaining information when out of body like reading an open book that a third party had left open and then verifying it once back in the body. That tells me that even if what they experienced was not actual physical reality it was at least an energetic duplicate of reality. R.B. calls it the real time zone and goes into detail of what is possible. If what I am experiencing when out of body is actually happening "Out of body" I should not be restricted by the physical limitations of the human brain.

When you are sleeping the part of your brain that comprehends the visual symbols of words and numbers is not functioning. So if you have a dream about reading a book you may intellectually 'know' what is on the page but you wont be able to see the words as words. They will resemble more a Rorschach test, a jumble of shifting blotches, rather anything resembling text. Among lucid dreamers this is a known sign that you are dreaming and is used commonly to make the realization that a dream is happening and so gain lucidity in order to take control. Am I wrong in this? Even if what I read when out of body isn't something that physically exists in the waking world, as long as words actually look like words and not shifting blotches, you instantly have proof that you are functioning outside the limitations of the physical brain. Its a visual thing not conceptual.

Its a bit disconcerting to read about one thing and when you interact with people who supposedly have had these experiences they say "No that's not what really happens." It puts into question the validity of this subject. When I have this experience myself I am not going to make any assumptions as to what is happening. I don't care how shocking the sensations are or how lucid and alien it is I wont label it an "OBE" until I can gain some form of evidence.

I found for myself that just having the experiences I had still convinced me being more than my physical body and the existence of an afterlife.

Why?

You see I have the same problem with religious people that have had some sort of ecstatic experience then claim to have been touched my "Jesus Christ" himself. But once they see a doctor it turns out they just had a seizure. They were already deeply religious and saw this as an opportunity to make all there church friends envious. Its a mentality that has been found to be deeply pervasive among groups of people who gather around a subject that is difficult to verify, be it any religion or paranormal concept. People claim to be abducted by UFO's just so they can feel special or included. Most of them lie to themselves so completely they convince themselves that that particularly frightening nightmare was something more, something real that now that its happened to them, they are special now.

So forgive me if I want to experiment and test and find some form of verification.

I'm sorry if you think i just accused you of being a fraud. I don't know you or what you experienced. But I do understand a bit about how we as humans can be a bit self deceptive. The human brain is so powerful a person is capable of believing anything no mater how contradictory, confusing, counter-intuitive, or just plain wrong in every way. We owe it to ourselves to overcome that. Thats why I have a problem with faith, as well as assumptions, judgment, and most of all willful ignorance.

That being said I deeply appreciate the input and I hope you will continue to assist me if you can. It means a lot to me that you are willing to spend your time helping me with this.

PR

[Korpo]

Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, William Buhlman and others all claim to have preformed similar tests of gaining information when out of body like reading an open book that a third party had left open and then verifying it once back in the body.

As far as I remember Robert Monroe tried this together with Charles Tart, the paranormal researcher, in a lab setting. Maybe it was with cards. If I remember correctly, it wasn't conclusive (enough?).

Also, if I remember correctly, many site members have done the card test and similar experiments with varying results. Maybe it gives you what you need.

Best of luck.
Oliver

[newfreedom]

They will resemble more a Rorschach test, a jumble of shifting blotches, rather anything resembling text. Among lucid dreamers this is a known sign that you are dreaming and is used commonly to make the realization that a dream is happening and so gain lucidity in order to take control. Am I wrong in this?

Hi All,

I have had at least one lucid dream, that i recorded, where i saw 'numbers' and read them...

[CFTraveler]

I have them all the time, but this is here nor there.
For probablereality: Please join me here http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/sho...233#post104233

[Sinera]

As far as I remember Robert Monroe tried this together with Charles Tart, the paranormal researcher, in a lab setting. Maybe it was with cards. If I remember correctly, it wasn't conclusive (enough?).Also, if I remember correctly, many site members have done the card test and similar experiments with varying results. Maybe it gives you what you need.

I've collected lots of validations, from different message boards but also from literature (all with internet links!), including Robert Monroe AND Charles Tart (but not the one they do together which was indeed not conclusive enough, although RM recognized then a lab technician he had not seen before (iirc)).

The collection also includes scientific (!) experiments mentioned in literature. However, it (so far) even leaves out two imporant sources of evidence by only concentrating on induced OBE/AP and excluding the evidence found in NDEs and Remote Viewing practice - which is VAST, if I may say so! So there would even be much more to add from these two sources!

The collection has grown again recently, so there really are many examples (certainly of different types and 'evidential' qualities, but each one striking in their own way). You also have to bear in mind that in our Western society many people with experiences do not talk about these things at all (not even in anonymous forums like this one) due to the societal paradigm which is materialism that declares all spiritual experiences as being 'insane', therefore there might be much more experiences with validations that we will never know about.

Here's the link, ProbableReality, maybe it helps to motivate you (a bit), as you can clearly see by this many examples that validations of some kind or another ARE possible. Sometimes it even comes when it is not expected.

http://reconnection.lima-city.de/OBE...ion/index.html

Hope it helps.

[ProbableReality]

d

As far as I remember Robert Monroe tried this together with Charles Tart, the paranormal researcher, in a lab setting. Maybe it was with cards. If I remember correctly, it wasn't conclusive (enough?).

Also, if I remember correctly, many site members have done the card test and similar experiments with varying results. Maybe it gives you what you need.

Best of luck.
Oliver

You probably already read this book but I found it one of the best and most comprehensive books out there on this subject. Its "MY BIG T.O.E." by Nuclear Physicist Thomas Campbell. TC was one of the first to help Robert Monroe in his testing and also helped build his first lab. I love this book.

PR