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Thread: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

  1. #1

    PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    Partnered Exploration (PE); PE-Queries8

    This is a call for PE, main purpose is to ask questions to guides or helpers
    by the use of group energy. (This call for PE goes to several forums.)

    For some of my ideas related to PE activities in general,
    see this -> link (where the PE template also is commented).


    Name of this PE is PE-Queries8 and its session dates & times (24 hour clock) are:

    - PE-Queries8.sess01, 2012-11-24 18.00 UTC+0 (Saturday)
    - PE-Queries8.sess02, 2012-11-25 18.00 UTC+0 (Sunday)


    Example 1, for Sweden, Germany, Italy and most of EU this becomes:
    - PE-Queries8.sess01, 2012-11-24 19.00 UTC+1 (Saturday)
    - PE-Queries8.sess02, 2012-11-25 19.00 UTC+1 (Sunday)

    Example 2, for U.S. Eastern Time this becomes:
    - PE-Queries8.sess01, 2012-11-24 13.00 UTC-5 (Saturday)
    - PE-Queries8.sess02, 2012-11-25 13.00 UTC-5 (Sunday)


    (If I make an error somewhere in the examples, please correct me.)
    DST is _not_ in effect in America or EU as I know of during this PE.


    Activity: We are going to ask two main questions to guides & helpers.

    The two main questions may result in follow-up questions or need for
    clarifications. This can take a good deal of time, and that's why
    I've limited this PE to only two main questions.


    The first question is related to T Campbell's viewpoint that the physical
    universe (matter, light, etc) is just a simulation, which consists of
    digital Consciousness. Sometimes Campbell says that Consciousness is
    just Data and the Data is digital in its nature.

    This means that the physical universe doesn't exist if Consciousness
    withdraws from the physical universe, because the physical universe
    doesn't exist on its own right in the first place.

    This means that if the Consciousness which is used for maintaining the physical
    universe, is put into some other kind of use, the physical universe will cease
    to exist. I think Campbell has also expressed it in the way that the physical
    universe is only "virtual", and he sometimes uses the abbreviation PMR for the
    physical (matter) universe.


    IMPORTANT: I'll create a list of participants (LIPA) as people state that they
    want to join this PE. The LIPA will be used for maintaining in what order
    people can ask questions to guides & helpers.

    Only one person at a time, from the LIPA, will ask all questions. The others
    will just listen until the questions have been answered. Then the next person
    from the LIPA will begin asking the same main questions and add that person's
    own flavoured follow-up questions.

    On some forums I can't update the first post after some time has passed. This
    means that if you are a PE-Queries8 participant, you'll have to take a look
    at the final LIPA in order to know how many persons before you will ask the
    same questions, before it's your turn. So... ->

    IMPORTANT TIME: Final LIPA set at 2012-11-24 12.00 UTC+0 (Saturday),
    for both sessions.

    After that point in time, I'll not add any more people to the LIPA. You
    may still be able to participate in the PE, but you'll have to settle
    for listening to the answers.


    (Note, this PE should not be mixed up with earlier scheduled PE-AdjustEnergy7.)



    PE Action:

    Relax, possible gather PUL. If needed, go nonphysically to a favorite place
    of yours and request a guide leading you to the Garden & Park. Otherwise go
    directly to the Garden & Park as mentioned in PE-Alien6. I'll include the
    new map of the area for completeness:




    If no images can be seen by your minds eye, imagine peeling an orange.
    If you see anything, imagine greeting the others at the Park & Garden.
    My guess by now is that the Garden & Park is somewhere in Focus 27.

    Once you sense some other people, gather in a circle and send supportive
    energy, positive feelings to the first person to ask questions.


    Then just observe and try to pick up any answers and any follow-up questions.

    When it's your turn to ask the main questions, step into the middle of the
    circle of people, direct yourself to the guide present and ask your questions.

    When you've gotten answers, you may choose to ask follow-up questions, of
    you own choice. Take as long time as you want to.

    If you feel moved to another place, just follow, observe and see what happens.
    You may be taken for a ride alone or together with others. Perhaps you'll get
    a task to perform, but most likely is that you just observe something
    somewhere.

    Keeping an open mind at all times.


    MAIN QUESTION 1 TO GUIDE: - If Consciousness leaves physical reality, does physical
    reality still exists on its own, without the need for the presence of Consciousness?

    MAIN QUESTION 2 TO GUIDE: - Why is it so difficult for some people to OBE and what
    can be done to improve OBE ability?


    If you can't pick up the answer or if the answer is unclear, you can proceed
    with some follow-up questions to the guide:

    - Can you answer this question?
    - Are you interested in the answer?
    - If you can't answer the question, can you take us to someone who can?
    - I'll rephrase my question; does physical reality exist independent of
    Consciousness being present?
    - What's the most common reason beside fear, that makes it difficult for
    people to OBE?
    - (any other questions you may have)


    Explicit participants:

    Anyone can participate, just state that you will join the PE in this thread.
    You don't need to have been on any previous PE. I'll call the list of
    participants for the LIPA. As an aid for everyone to find each other,
    I'll also state the originating forum behind that participants forum
    nick. So far the LIPA goes like this:

    List of Participants (LIPA) of PE-Queries8:

    PauliEffect (Afterlife Knowledge)


    Also, I'll keep myself at the last person of the list, so everyone gets to
    ask the questions before me.

  2. #2
    IA56 Guest

    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    I want to join to listen to the answeres..

  3. #3

    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    Some time ago, before I made the call for PE-Queries8, I met one of my
    guides, who I think isn't originally human. I asked this guide if
    physical reality exists on its own. I got a peculiar answer, in
    the form of a question:

    "If you withdraw Consciousness from matter, how do you know that
    matter still exists?"



    That response puzzled me and I came up with no answer. I made the call
    for PE-Queries8, and left my guide's question for some time. I also
    asked my guide if it/she/he knew the answer to the question and it/she/he
    answered "no". I asked if my guide could find the answer, and the answer
    was "yes". I finally asked my guide if my guide was interested in the
    answer to the question and got "no".

    ---


    Anyway, now I've come up with a very simple and probably flawed experiment.
    I have three balls in space, the lower ball is yellow, the middle bigger
    ball is green, and the top ball is blue.

    Assume that the balls are made out of painted steel.

    I push the yellow ball towards the blue ball, but the large green ball
    is an obstacle in front of the blue ball. There are some ball collisions
    and the balls move in different directions.

    The arrows in the image just indicate directions of movement of the
    balls.

    ---


    Then I repeat the experiment.

    But I remove Consciousness from one area of three dimensional space. As
    this is a thought experiment and not a real one, I can do so.


    The image below show the experiment in A.1 without any changes to physical
    reality, while in B.1 the dashed area represents the region where
    Consciousness is withdrawn:





    The large green ball now can not be sensed, and part of the top blue ball
    also can't be sensed. I also remove Consciousness from everything which
    goes into the dashed rectangular volume.

    I know nothing of what's inside the non-Consciousness dash outlined
    volume.

    I then push the yellow ball into that non-Consciousness area and withdraws
    Consciousness from the yellow ball as it enter that area.

    I then wait.

    What will happen to the blue ball? Will it move and if so, in what direction?

    If matter can't exist on it's own, the blue ball should stay still, right?

    NOTE: The reason why I use a larger green ball, and don't push the yellow
    ball directly towards the top blue ball, is that I don't know if there is
    a difference with matter in motion or standing still which has had
    Consciousness withdrawn.

    I also don't know what to expect as the large green ball could be gone,
    and so could the yellow. Will the blue ball only start to move due to my
    expectations, be it either on the yellow ball only, or on the combination
    yellow-and-green ball?

    Please leave your comments.

    Or if you know how to make a better experiment or improve this one, just
    tell me.


    Campbell's claim that PMR doesn't exist on its own really puzzles me.

  4. #4
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    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    The only comment I have (and it's not helpful or insightful at all) is that your model B.1 seems to illustrate quantum indeterminacy, but on a large scale. How you can have an area of nonconsciousness (is not-knowingness not-consciousness?) and another area of consciousness I don't understand, unless you consider an observer=consciousness. Is this so?
    (Sorry for my sentence construction, I'm under the hold of yet another migraine episode, and I can't properly articulate certain concepts when I'm migrainy.) <---- But at least I closed the parenthesis.
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  5. #5

    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    Yes CFTraveller, you have found one (several?) weak spots in my experiment setting
    above, the indeterminacy.

    I think quantum indeterminacy is something Campbell has been thinking on, when
    he wrote his TOE, as he is a physicist. So for the experiment above, I would accept
    quite a great uncertainty on time, but not on position in space. Assume that the
    movements (and ball collisions) in A.1 take 10 seconds. Then in B.1 I could wait for,
    say 20 seconds, to see if anything happens.

    According to Campbell, physical matter reality (PMR) is made up of Digital Data =
    Consciousness, only.

    This means that if Consciousness is completely withdrawn from matter, then matter
    will be gone. That also would mean that if the B.1 experiment is possible to perform,
    no movement will happen even after several minutes.

    ---


    Now the problem comes to; how-to-remove-Consciousness from matter?

    I just assume that we humans usually are incapable of removing Consciousness,
    so the B.1 experiment has to be performed by some entities with better ability
    to manipulate Consciousness.

    But if those "higher" beings can perform the experiment or we can convince
    them to help us perform such an experiment, then we may get some kind
    of answer.

    ---


    One more flaw in the experiment is that it assumes that there always is Consciousness
    in matter. I don't know if that assumption is right.

    And that's why my initial question is more related to a general question on existance
    of matter. The experiment holds an assumption, which is a drawback, as I haven't
    made such a solid observation myself.

    So I try to go from observation -> question -> answer.

    And Campbell claims to have done the observation that PMR doesn't exist on its own.
    PMR is only virtual, virtually existing. I then hope we all can examine Campbell's
    observation, by doing a PE.

    ---


    Then there are more flaws in B.1.

    For example the problem with observed quantum entanglement. Perhaps the experiment
    is impossible? Maybe we need to remove _all_ Consciousness from _all_ matter in
    order to remove Consciousness from even a tiny bit of matter, or we will crash
    into the entanglement problem?

    I don't know that answer either.

    ---


    We also have the problem with expectations, but to some part I've an opening there,
    as the blue ball can be collided by the green ball or the yellow ball. Possible repeating
    the experiment with different people, having different expectations will give different
    results, which in the end point to the possibility that Campbell is right; PMR doesn't
    exist.

    ---

    Proton

    Then there are more possibilities, like the Moen assumption that Consciousness is
    present in matter at all times.

    Perhaps Consciousness and matter can't be separated, like the up and down quarks
    of a proton/neutron can't be separated. I think the top quark is stand-alone, but
    the up/down quarks always have to be in groups of three, because they are kept
    together by gluons, which "glue" those quarks together.

    Add more energy to separate the up/down quarks and that energy turns into more
    gluons, which keep the quarks even harder together, inseparable.

    --

    To answer your question, is the observer = consciousness?

    The answer is that the Observer is not only Consciousness, the Observer is so much
    more in Campbell's theory. The Observer is both Consciousness, the Big Computer,
    the Programmer and Software - all made up of the same digital Consciousness.

    If you, according to Campbell, remove the Observer, you also remove all the other
    parts, which in effect would remove matter, too. Matter is just a simulation, made out
    of some part of the Software = Consciousness.

    My idea is that if Campbell is right, you should be able to remove some portion of
    the Software, and that removal will cease the simulation of the existence of matter,
    within the dashed test volume in B.1.

    If that's not enough you could even remove some part of the Computer, where the
    Software/Data (=Consciousness) is stored.

    So..

    To test Campbell's theory, we somehow have to remove as much Consciousness as
    possible, preferable all Consciousness within the dashed-drawn experiment volume
    in B.1, to see if there is still any matter left (yellow/green balls) which can move
    the blue ball.

    ---

    To make one more reflection, the question I got as an "answer" from my guide,
    indicates that things may be more complicated than the model Campbell
    presents, IMHO.

  6. #6
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    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    I have some crude thoughts on the subject- not even theory, just random things that I think about when I read about theories such as Campbell's and others' (whose names I can't even think of at the moment, so many scientists, so little time....)

    Many noetic science writers describe reality as consisting of energy and information. Energy is the potential for something to be, and information is that which gives the energy form or perceptibility- I like this because it reduces everything to simple bite-size chunks, easy to digest, so to speak.... but when we get into consciousness things get somewhat fuzzy-
    As I was reading somewhere, consciousness is something that we can only study in ourselves- we tend to think that our consciousness is what allows us to think about what we perceive- a kind of precursor and at the same time translator of this information- and this makes sense to me if the energy everyone talks about is also the energy that we think with, that observes itself.
    But then when it comes to information- that signal that makes the universe holographic (or not, it's still a theory)- who puts the information in the energy to make it perceptible? Is it consciousness, or is there another yet undiscovered agent? So this computer/consciousness/interpreter may be all one- and this information then is what we perceive as reality, when really it's just an inprinted code that is also created by this consciousness.
    Or maybe not, who knows?
    - That's what happens when the headache goes away but the addlebrainedness remains.

    So I think my point may have been that indeterminacy arises from the inability from consciousness to perceive itself without imprinting a code- remove consciousness/attention and the code is gone, and if the code is gone there's just pure undifferentiated energy to not perceive.

    I think this may be what the Kabalists call 'Ain Sof' or the first emanation..... Ok my headache is returning I better stop reading ASAP.
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  7. #7

    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    What does it mean that "the universe is holographic"? Is that just another
    way of saying that the universe is virtual, in the Campbell sense?

  8. #8
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    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    In a way yes, only more specific, holographic being the way the virtual universe is perceived in pmr. Here's some background, if you don't find it too boring:
    Talbot's theory
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

    It seemed that astronomical observations were supporting the holographic theory, but this seems to be rethought.
    http://io9.com/5818008/the-universe-...gram-after-all

    However, if the brain perceives reality holographically, and it seems to be the case, there is still the possibility that it is.
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  9. #9

    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    There is one week left to this PE starts, but very few have showed interest.

    Maybe I could reduce the requirements, by saying that putting intent and
    making a post in this thread, is all that's needed for the PE to get an
    increased possibility to succeed.

    You could also try to participate either by putting intent before you go
    to bed (you probably wont remember much that way, but I can tell you
    on the forum afterwards). You have at least a span of 24 hours to play
    with during next weekend.

    I don't request that anyone ask questions, your presence in the PE circle
    is probably the most important thing, as I don't fare well without group
    energy, or at least I've been very unsuccessful getting answers on my
    own to those two questions (see starting post above) so far.

    I have the feeling that I need 3 more persons for this PE. No skills
    whatsoever are needed.

  10. #10
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    Re: PE to ask questions; PE-Queries8

    Just remind me the day before-next w.e. it 's thanksgiving and I will need reminding.
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