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Thread: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

  1. #1

    how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    hi everybody,

    lately i had some words with skeptics.

    do you think that it is possible to prove in a scientific way that spiritual phenominon are real to skeptics, and how do you think its possible?

    the "arch skeptic" James ♥♥♥♥♥ claimed to have an OBE but told that it was an hallucination of some kind because he said his cat was in the bedroom on a green bedspread when he had the OBE while his cat was outside and could not have been in the bedroom because he also locked the bedroomdoor and found the bedspread in the laundry the other day(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwKkbd2e-c).

    Or could it be that his cat was also having an OBE and was out of its body in the bedroom? only that leaves out the bedspread?? or can this be a parrallel/ copy dimension wich lookes exactly like the physical with only few differences? what can we think of this?

    also do you know about the James ♥♥♥♥♥ 1 million dollar paranormal challenge? do you think there is a way to prove the reality of paranormal in a scientific way? or do you think this is almost an impossible challenge(also because they say nobody has ever come through the preminairy test)?

    and what do you think is the strongest verifiying evidence that NDE's and OBE's are no hallucinations that we have documented right now? do you have some good links where i can find some real nice stories of undeniable evidence?

    Also does anybody know about any results of the aware study lead by dr. Sam Parnia? i still have not find any reply with the results of that investigation?

    grts Bram

  2. #2

    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    R@ndi's prize is a scam operation by the (pseudo-)skeptic's societies. No one there is interested to "let you win". R@ndi and his biased pseudo-skeptic disciples are the ones who decide in the end and they only decide what they want to be the result. The result is to uphold their BELIEF system (materialism) at all costs.

    I suggest you read these blog entries on R@ndi's "prize" by M. Prescott which are good ...

    http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... lenge.html

    http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/ ... ♥♥♥♥♥.html (oops, doesn't work since R@ndi's written normally is censored here, don't ask me why...)

    here's the same link to paste into your address line of your browser, but you must put in an o for an a at the end...

    "http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Examskeptics/Prescott_Rondi.html"

    Even better: read THIS great book which any R@ndi's disciple wouldn't even touch with gloves, as it could shatter their belief system:

    http://www.amazon.com/RANDIS-PRIZE-scep ... 848764944/

    Here, also renowned parapsychologist Dean Radin has interesting things to say about that 'prize' offered by 'debunkers':

    http://deanradin.blogspot.de/2010/07/co ... ptics.html

    Btw, Randis semi-religious group is not made up of REAL skeptics, he does not refer to close-minded people who call themselves skeptics but are only superstitious in their own little way.

    Another good page I had bookmarked long ago when it comes to de-construct the arguments of the PSEUDO-skeptics, it's a good write-up:

    http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Introduction.htm#How

    http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/index.php#Vinstonas

    Also if you like take a look at some literature by parapsychologists and their (scientific laboratory!) research, such as D. Radin or C. Tart. The evidence on the paranomal is VAST, it's accumulated over many decades now. Remote Viewing, NDEs etc. all lead to validations that prove that there is a larger reality.

    Last not least, here's a private page with a collection to "VALIDATIONS" of OBErs. Some are from literature and some are from accounts on message boards such as the Astral Pulse or sites on NDE/OBE such as OBERF. Have a look at it because it is very good:

    http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.html

    Sam Parnia's experiments are bound to fail because no NDEr who experiences him/herself out of body will feel reminded to 'look up some numbers somewhere at the ceiling'. They've got other business to attend to. The whole premise of this research is futile.

    Unless, they do it this way maybe ...





    Best wishes,
    V.

    ps: last recommendation: ignore close-minded skeptics, it's the best you can do, no, seriously... any discussion with them is futile as they cannot step out of the box of their dogma
    This collector of useless clutter.

  3. #3

    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Its probably not worth anyone's time to try and convince skeptics. Other than individuals like robert bruce, you and me, and ppl on this forum being pretty much the for front poster boys for this type of work in today's day and age...Science and the eventual increase of knowledge in our society be the key!

    Science will eventually have to progress to spiritual/dimensional levels, at that point and even before; knowledge of the entire brain/mind will be complete and that in itself will unlock the door to psychic phenomena and probably much more.

    I am sure other technology's will also play a key part in it.

    I have pretty much come to realize that the majority of problems that we all face with astral projection and spiritual matters all have to do with different aspects of our physical bodies. Our ability to concentrate fully, our ability to relax, our health, even our beliefs play a huge part of exerting pressure on our physical bodies. Once these aspects are understood, controlled, and developed to a very high level and integrated into society (schools, daily life...)than psychic phenomena will be the norm.

    that's just what i believe though... who knows when that time will come, maybe 50-100-200 years?

    It sucks really, i dont kno about you guys but i am frustrated. I know that i would be able to make way more progress with my life and astral projection/spirtuality if this stuff was common knowledge and accepted as a part of life. Instead if you even mention it people, they will look at you like a fool, and that can really burn your progress.

  4. #4

    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bram View Post
    hi everybody,

    lately i had some words with skeptics.

    do you think that it is possible to prove in a scientific way that spiritual phenominon are real to skeptics, and how do you think its possible?

    the "arch skeptic" James ♥♥♥♥♥ claimed to have an OBE but told that it was an hallucination of some kind because he said his cat was in the bedroom on a green bedspread when he had the OBE while his cat was outside and could not have been in the bedroom because he also locked the bedroomdoor and found the bedspread in the laundry the other day(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwKkbd2e-c).

    Or could it be that his cat was also having an OBE and was out of its body in the bedroom? only that leaves out the bedspread?? or can this be a parrallel/ copy dimension wich lookes exactly like the physical with only few differences? what can we think of this?

    also do you know about the James ♥♥♥♥♥ 1 million dollar paranormal challenge? do you think there is a way to prove the reality of paranormal in a scientific way? or do you think this is almost an impossible challenge(also because they say nobody has ever come through the preminairy test)?

    and what do you think is the strongest verifiying evidence that NDE's and OBE's are no hallucinations that we have documented right now? do you have some good links where i can find some real nice stories of undeniable evidence?

    Also does anybody know about any results of the aware study lead by dr. Sam Parnia? i still have not find any reply with the results of that investigation?

    grts Bram
    One of the things i've noticed so far about OBE is that you don't need to believe in it in order for it to occur. There is no need to be frustrated by skeptics or even to be attached to your own beliefs surrounding OBE so much so that skeptics start to rustle your feathers.

    I think skeptics and materialists have a very important role in the grander scheme of things and it can be helpful to look at the material aspect of things. If i had to take a guess in 100-200 years from now our greater understanding of the OBE phenomenon and psychic phenomenon in general will come from looking at the material aspects of it more. The next major breakthrough in OBE type phenomenon will probably come from studies involved in the brain and how to control brain functions. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this happen in that belief is removed from the equation. The phenomenon can be experienced regardless of someones belief system and experiences can be repeated and observed by others.
    You haveeyes each composed of 130 million photoreceptor cells. In each of those cells there’s 100 trillion atoms that’s more than all the stars in the Milky way galaxy.However each atom in each cell in each eye formed in the core of a star billions of years ago and yet here they are today being utilized to capture the energy released from that same process all to expand the consciousness of you. It's ironic in that you are the universe experiencing itself And all you are is a thought.

  5. #5
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    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Volgerle View Post
    R@ndi's written normally is censored here, don't ask me why...
    Oh, I can aswer that. It's because his obnoxious fanboyz sometimes like to Google the web and find mentions of his name in communities like this one, and then turn up en masse and start flame wars. This hasn't been a problem here lately, but in times past, it most certainly was, and it was extremely disruptive. Hence the censoring of the name. It's not that we care if people talk about him, it's that we don't want to attract that kind of negative attention and those kinds of negative people. It's probably not that much of an issue these days on this board, though it was on the previous system, but it remains a policy for historical and slightly paranoid reasons.

    On the original topic, skeptics, I don't give a flying fig about any of them. They can believe or disbelieve whatever they want. It doesn't affect or change my considerable experience. I don't try to convince anyone of anything, because it generally only reinforces their beliefs. They can't change my views. Why would I care about changing theirs?

    By the way, look into the work of Dean Radin some time. He's got years and years of verifiable, peer-reviewed studies on various psi phenomena. His position is that the scientific/academic world is simply not open to any suggestion of psi phenomena, no matter how well a study is conducted or whether the results can be replicated, etc. It goes against the biases and beliefs of the majority of those in the field of science, so they won't even look at it or consider it, and dismiss it entirely as bunk and nonsense. (I have to warn you, Dean Radin is an extremely dry speaker and writer, with the flattest, most uninspiring delivery you can imagine, but the information he's got to share is worth pushing past the yawn factor. There are some talks of his online, and you can find is books on Amazon and elsewhere.)

    Quote Originally Posted by heliac View Post
    One of the things i've noticed so far about OBE is that you don't need to believe in it in order for it to occur.
    The same can be said of hauntings. Hauntings are a common phenomenon, and they happen to all kinds of people, from the most disbelieving to the most avid of ghost lovers, and everyone in between. It's a non-discriminatory paranormal experience. The only difference is in the interpretation of the experience.
    May the light surround you, may you be blessed. May the light surround us, may we be blessed. May love and light surround us all, and may we all be healed and blessed. And so it is, and so it shall be, now and ever after.

  6. #6
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    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Bram, regarding OBEs and scientifically verifiable evidence, I'm sorry to say the word is no.
    Now realize I'm only talking about OBEs, not any other type of 'spiritual' phenomena.
    The reason I say 'no' is because I can have many validations for some of my experiences, but it doesn't mean they are all repeatable or verifiable scientifically. This is because it's a subjective experience, and there is some evidence (anecdotal, but quotable) that reality fluctuations affect the results of tests done to test realtime projection experiences.
    For example, I've had about five or six experiences that were verified, amongst the hundreds (or thousands, I haven't counted) that were to places that were not verifiable (not really) and others that are considered 'not realtime'. When you project you can go to your subconscious, as well as realtime.
    No credible scientist would accept results that are not repeatable, and even though that I know for a fact that I sometimes go out and see stuff that is happening somewhere else to someone else, I also know that sometimes I go to places that are created by the collective unconscious- making it not verifiable by current scientific standards.
    If you look at ESP and other types of disciplines (you can read Charles Tart's findings in a book called 'The End of Materialism', for example)- you can see where double blind studies showed results better than chance in many experiments.
    But, (and this is a real example that you can read in my journal, if you have that kind of patience) if you see that once I projected out of my body, saw that the seeds I had planted months ago had just germinated that night on top of the fridge (high up, out of sight) was amazed at this sight, and flew back to my room, and the next morning I went to check and there they were, exactly what I had seen in my flight- This is verifiable to me, and to me only. But any scientist would say 'you could have guessed or dreamed it', or worse, 'you are lying', and I couldn't really prove to him that this really happened.
    So you do it and eventually have a verifiable experience, and know this really happened, or you just don't.

    Plus, many 'so called' skeptics are really materialists, and that is not the same thing.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  7. #7

    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman View Post
    Oh, I can aswer that. It's because his obnoxious fanboyz sometimes like to Google the web and find mentions of his name in communities like this one, and then turn up en masse and start flame wars.
    My goodness, isn't this sad, I wonder what's wrong with these people? Is there really so much fun involved for them or is it the need to defend one's worldview to a dramatical intensity and at all costs - even by coming to forums like this one and play the "hornet in the beehive"?

    Maybe it's also because they want to play up to their idols they adore? Reminds me of another blog post about the possible background psychology of the people doing this called "Too uncool for school". It's a nice read and gives a new twist to the "pseudoskeptic behavioural pattern":

    http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/m...or-school.html

    I think in many cases skepticism appeals to people who are reluctant to think for themselves, and who ground their self-image in the borrowed authority of relatively high-status figures like Gardner, Carl Sagan, and James ♥♥♥♥♥. By simply latching on to the stated opinions of these people and parroting them, the skeptic can cultivate the illusion that he is one of them, or at least is in their orb.

    (...) the real motivation behind much of skepticism is to be accepted as one of the "in" crowd. If one cannot be an expert oneself, the next best thing is to be a cheerleader for the experts and gain some measure of credibility, authority, and status via osmosis.

    This may account for the peculiar fan-boy quality that many skeptics exhibit toward figures like ♥♥♥♥♥, Sagan, and Gardner. As Greg Taylor notes, a contingent of these skeptics patrols the pages of Wikipedia to edit out any information that might cast their idols in a less than favorable light. They also descend on any pro-paranormal book listed on Amazon.com to inundate it with one-star reviews, repeating the standard skeptical talking points, even when it's obvious they have never looked at the book in question. And they gather at conventions, like ♥♥♥♥♥'s "Amazing's Meetings" apparently for the sole purpose of congratulating each other on how smart they are.

    It also accounts, I think, for the blustery condescension and snarkiness that characterize too much skeptical output. Often it seems that the principal objective of the skeptic is to establish that he is cleverer than his adversaries, and his principal tactic is to assume an air of bored, wryly amused detachment, as if to say, "People as smart and knowledgeable as I can scarcely be bothered with all this nonsense." It's a pose, and not an especially convincing one.

    To me, the whole thing smells a little too much of high school. You know how in high school, there's the "in" crowd, and then there are the insecure poseurs who aren't cool enough for that crowd but who desperately attempt to score points as hangers-on?
    True skepticism requires the opposite approach -- a willingness to think for oneself and to disregard the experts if their expertise is found lacking. (...)

    - M. Prescott
    I know this is a hard judgement on these people, but something inside me tells me that he is probably right with this.
    This collector of useless clutter.

  8. #8
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    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    I just wish they would stop calling them skeptics. It's my one big problem with it. A true skeptic looks at everything, and exhibits no bias. They're not skeptics, they're materialists.
    https://linktr.ee/CoralieCFTraveler
    Rules:http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/faq.php
    "Stop acting as if life is a rehearsal" Dr. Wayne Dyer.

  9. #9

    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Quote Originally Posted by atsguy View Post
    It sucks really, i dont kno about you guys but i am frustrated. I know that i would be able to make way more progress with my life and astral projection/spirtuality if this stuff was common knowledge and accepted as a part of life. Instead if you even mention it people, they will look at you like a fool, and that can really burn your progress.
    I completely agree, I am trying so many things to heal myself and expand my mind and all the astral comes with it. Instead I have to bottle it up and listen to the everyday stuff that people talk about during get togethers. It's nice to see people but I lack a depth and meaning. Perhaps it's just my selfish hedonistic side but I just want to talk about me I feel that for the first time in a long time maybe ever that I have something interesting to contribute but I can't as I will appear way off key. Thank god for the Internet.
    Last edited by CFTraveler; 6th March 2013 at 08:15 PM. Reason: fixing quotes

  10. #10
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    Re: how can we prove the psychic phenominon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Volgerle View Post
    My goodness, isn't this sad, I wonder what's wrong with these people? Is there really so much fun involved for them or is it the need to defend one's worldview to a dramatical intensity and at all costs - even by coming to forums like this one and play the "hornet in the beehive"?
    I know. Pathetic, isn't it?
    May the light surround you, may you be blessed. May the light surround us, may we be blessed. May love and light surround us all, and may we all be healed and blessed. And so it is, and so it shall be, now and ever after.

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