Last request for advice and then I will leave everyone alone

**agapelove** · 25th June 2013, 06:15 AM

If you couldn't tell from my other posts, I am a Bible thumping Christian and I also believe that some, or perhaps most, mystical and occult practices are ok, perhaps even beneficial.

Here is my problem:

On Christian forums, no one will even enter into a discussion about the occult, except to condemn it--and they generally provide little to no logic for their conclusions.

On the other hand, on occult forums no one will answer these questions from the perspective that the Bible is literally true and that it is the only true message from God to man.

Are these two things really that mutually exclusive? The more I look into these issues, the more ambiguous everything seems. I really don't care what anyone believes, what I'm looking for is sound, logical argument and debate--the kind of thing that could stand up in an academic, peer-reviewed journal. (I said I wasn't arguing for or against Christianity or trying to win converts in another post, and I meant it.)

So, this is the advice I'm looking for, and these questions are at the heart of what I have been asking about, both here and on other forums--and I have yet to find a cogent, logical, convincing, and persuasive argument, sola scriptura, by scripture alone, that lands on any side of the following questions, so:

Does anyone know of any websites, books, articles, authors, forums, etc. that would answer the following:

1.) Can one practice mysticism and the occult without violating any Biblical mandates (of specific concern here are mandates in the canonical Pauline Epistles.) The Bible, when read literally, clearly prohibits some aspects of the occult, yet seems fine with others. For instance, in Acts, Peter and Paul both enter into trances and receive messages from God.

What I'm really looking for is Why the prohibition? For instance, was King Saul's sin, in and of itself, that he went to the medium, or was his sin the reasoning and desires that led him to using the medium? His reason being that God had stopped communicating with him and instead of respecting this, he went to someone other than God.

2.) Where is the line between science and magic. Examples: Hypnotism, science or magic? Meditation: Eastern Occultism or scientific stress relief? How can we (we fundamentalist Christians) condemn practices like alchemy and astrology when they led directly to modern science? Another: Refusing to believe that occultists could be right about anything because we disagree with some of their theology is like refusing to go to a medical Dr. because he believes in evolution and we don't.

3.) Compare and contrast Crowley's Law and Rom 14. They seem very similar, at least on the surface. What is the difference? Is there a difference between Crowley's definition of "love" and Paul's definition of "love?" There must be a difference that I'm missing because Paul and Crowley were very different people with very different outlooks and beliefs.

Thank you for your help and your patience.

IA56 · 25th June 2013, 06:38 AM

Hi agapelove,

God know you better than you know yourself, why do you not dare to feel free in your heart and listen the voice from inside what it tells you?? Why not let the message sink into your heart and let it guide you. The thing is for you to become yourself and find how and whom you are going to listen, and in my world the most importent thing is to learn to listen to yourself so you can take responsibillity and stop saying, but he told me so, or she told me this...in the end it is your own choices what counts, make them and take responsibillity for them.
I have listen to many and I have found myself in very hard and impossible situations in life, but I have always known that it has always bean my choice to listen to whom ever I listened to, and I have noticed that there is no comdemtion in ignorance, and how do you get knowledge if you not dare to make your choices and look where it leads.
All desiples in Bible was only man, with faults and judgements, God/Jesus did choose them for a reason, try to look through what that reason was, and not only read blindly the word´s....for instance Paul was still the old school, pusching down women, he said, that women should not speak in public or something like this, so how right is this in your world?? Jesus did show how to respect and how to let women be as free as men.

So, why do you not dare to make your own choice about these questions you have?? What are you afraid, to get real knowledge and not to know how to handle the knowing, or you just want to blame others??

I do not understand why you choose Alister Crowley to refer too from the occutist range?? He in my oppinion is sick.

Love
ia

**ButterflyWoman** · 25th June 2013, 06:54 AM

Here's my perspective, which is kinda meta. Take it for what it's worth.

There is no need to convince other people that your interpretation is correct. I understand that this is pretty much classic fundamentalist thinking, this "right vs wrong" (orthodox vs heterodox or even heresy), but, bottom line, people will believe and do what they feel they need/want to believe and do, and there is next to nothing you can do to change it. If YOU are comfortable with YOUR interpretations, and YOUR experiences support your conclusions, well, live your life that way, and stop worrying so much about how other people live theirs. You don't have to convince anyone else that you're right, or that it's okay. You don't need their permission.

Ultimately, your life and how you live it is between YOU and GOD, and nobody else. Spending your energy on trying to change other people's opinions has very little fruit for the effort involved, and even if you can change a mind here or there, in the long run, it won't matter. You are in charge of your life, of your actions, of your relationship with your God. Nobody else needs to be involved. Indeed, nobody else CAN be involved, no matter how much they insist they need to be there to tell you what to do and how to do it and how to interpret things.

I've been studying the Bible from a wide range of perspectives for decades, by the way (still do; currently reading a book on the very early Christian church and its factions). I've spent a lot of time in my life arguing with people about various interpretations of this verse or that passage. It never gained me anything, however, and now I regret the waste of time and energy that I put into proving this or that "right" and this or that other thing "wrong". I get where you're coming from, I really do. I, however, am relieved to have left that kind of worldview behind. I don't argue with dogma-bound Christians these days, and it is a blessing to have released the need and the desire to do that.

I do wish you well, and I hope you find peace within yourself and with reconciling the various divergent aspects of your path. I do urge you to consider, however, that your path is unique, and that you may never be able to convince anyone else of its validity. That doesn't make it invalid; it just means you're on a unique path (something else I know rather a lot about; it's lonely and frustrating, but very fruitful). Blessings to you on your journey.

**BDeye** · 25th June 2013, 08:16 AM

I have a few christian fundamentalists in my family and we gave up a long time ago trying to explain our interpretive views to each other. Since then we get along great, we love each other, so nothing else really matters. Trying to change someones view is not going to make my walk along this path any easier. If you're looking at yourself as part of a group and the groups actions or laws go against the grain, maybe the problem isn't with the group but rather that the group isn't right for you at this time. If they're happy seeing the world a certain way, then that is the right place for them and what they need along the road.

I decided a long time ago that I didn't want to be lead along this strange road but rather find my own way. It certainly isn't easy, you feel lost, turned around and have to backtrack sometimes, but I still don't have a destination, so being lost doesn't matter, I just enjoy the stroll as much as I can.

Now none of what I said matters, the difficulty in reconciling these matters lies with you, not them. They stand firm in their beliefs and who am I or you to say that's wrong. If you are unable to find the solution to these questions you're looking for, try changing the format you're using to solve the problem. Letting go of things is always harder than hanging on to something, even when the thing you're clinging to is causing you pain.

I haven't answered your question, because I can't. Maybe you can and then share your answers with me, I always enjoy hearing a new point of view.

**Frater.Akenu** · 25th June 2013, 01:52 PM

Try to ask some Martinist order, these usually have the best Magick/Christianity connection.

**CFTraveler** · 25th June 2013, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by agapelove

If you couldn't tell from my other posts, I am a Bible thumping Christian and I also believe that some, or perhaps most, mystical and occult practices are ok, perhaps even beneficial.

You don't have to leave, there's nothing wrong with being a bible-thumping Christian, I have done some thumping in my time, I am just trying to avoid the inevitable flamewars that usually happen in diverse forums when it comes to religion. But we can try and see how this post develops.

Here is my problem:

On Christian forums, no one will even enter into a discussion about the occult, except to condemn it--and they generally provide little to no logic for their conclusions.

That's because when they have been taught it's "wrong" (and this depends on the branch of Christianity) there has been no explanation, or the explanation has to do with what that branch believes. No logic is necessary. Because the Pope/Minister/Bible quote said so is sufficient. Later on, the few that question, will get whatever the branch belief is, regardless of whether it makes sense to them.

On the other hand, on occult forums no one will answer these questions from the perspective that the Bible is literally true and that it is the only true message from God to man.

That's because a great majority of people that hang out in occult forums do not believe this about the bible. So how can they? It would be hypocritical. The closest you can come to 'belief in the Bible' in an occult forum (or metaphysical forum) is that the Bible is a symbol of God, and transmitted to humans in a symbolic way, because that's how our minds work. That is the basis of all metaphysics, so being on a metaphysically themed forum will give you some form of that kind of thought process or belief system.

Are these two things really that mutually exclusive? The more I look into these issues, the more ambiguous everything seems. I really don't care what anyone believes, what I'm looking for is sound, logical argument and debate--the kind of thing that could stand up in an academic, peer-reviewed journal. (I said I wasn't arguing for or against Christianity or trying to win converts in another post, and I meant it.)

Sorry, when I read "this or that is wrong", it's the message I got. My bad. But here is what you should know about these types of forums:
Metaphysics (in the philosophical sense) is the study of that which is beyond the physical (obvious) but what is missed is that one of the very basic tenets of metaphysics is that what is beyond the physical is what creates the physical. I don't mean this from a 'magical' sense (but it could be) but from the sense that spirit creates the physical, so studying the spiritual is the best way to understand the physical.
Symbolism is how we can understand spirit, and it's how most metaphysically minded folks see the world- a big old symbol of something more subtle- hence the kinds of healing you see, and the reason prayer exists (talking to the spiritual side when the material bewilders us)- but this also extends to everything else, including the Bible. Most mystics see the bible as a resource that is to be read in at least three ways: Literally (that is, looking at historic events and getting a lesson from them), as learning events (that is, see what the lesson is in a particular story) and see how the symbolism describes the story of the world and what we're here for- not literally, but symbolically. Like the story of adam and eve, not being only the story that it seems to be, but the story that shows the maturity of a human being and the stages it goes through, for example. Every story has a deeper meaning.
Most metaphysically minded do not accept the premises you have stated (that it is literal, and that it is the 'only' word of God. It just goes against our grain, so to speak.
So it stands to reason that you are going to get very little discourse from people that hang out in 'occult' forums on that basis. There may be one or two that I can think of, but most mystics just don't see the world that way.

Does anyone know of any websites, books, articles, authors, forums, etc. that would answer the following:

1.) Can one practice mysticism and the occult without violating any Biblical mandates (of specific concern here are mandates in the canonical Pauline Epistles.) The Bible, when read literally, clearly prohibits some aspects of the occult, yet seems fine with others. For instance, in Acts, Peter and Paul both enter into trances and receive messages from God.

I know of a person who does have some firm opinions about that, I'll see if I can find him and point you to him. He is ultra conservative and advocates astral projection- but not anything else.

What I'm really looking for is Why the prohibition? For instance, was King Saul's sin, in and of itself, that he went to the medium, or was his sin the reasoning and desires that led him to using the medium? His reason being that God had stopped communicating with him and instead of respecting this, he went to someone other than God.

I know you and I will probably disagree with this, but I think the prohibition is a case of not looking at the case deep enough. It's not that he went to a medium, but that his view of God was so limited that it didn't occur to him that going to a medium was 'one' possible way of talking with God. He thought the medium was 'instead of' God, and that's where he screwed up.

2.) Where is the line between science and magic. Examples: Hypnotism, science or magic? Meditation: Eastern Occultism or scientific stress relief? How can we (we fundamentalist Christians) condemn practices like alchemy and astrology when they led directly to modern science? Another: Refusing to believe that occultists could be right about anything because we disagree with some of their theology is like refusing to go to a medical Dr. because he believes in evolution and we don't.

Here a little history will help- there was a time when wearing glasses would have got you in trouble. Because the belief in the literality of the Bible, there are a lot of prohibitions that some sects take more seriously than others, that's why, for example, a Christian Science person will not go to a doctor, or a Jehovah's Witness will refuse a transfusion. Many people taking parts of the Bible so literally that it is impossible for them to accept something that is so simple and harmless for others. So it doesn't surprise me that some conservative christians will refuse any type of direct use (occultism) just in case they do the wrong thing. I won't get into the politics of the thing because it's too inflammatory.

3.) Compare and contrast Crowley's Law and Rom 14. They seem very similar, at least on the surface. What is the difference? Is there a difference between Crowley's definition of "love" and Paul's definition of "love?" There must be a difference that I'm missing because Paul and Crowley were very different people with very different outlooks and beliefs.

Paul is featured in the Bible and Crowley isn't, and that's enough for some. Once again, literalism is what drives a lot of this sentiment.

Thank you for your help and your patience.

FWIW.

**eyeoneblack** · 25th June 2013, 04:59 PM

There is a two volume set of books (out of print now but you can find them on eBay) by H.P. Blavatsky. One is on Science and the other Theology. The books title is Isis Unveiled.

I've mentioned them before but I don't believe anyone here has read them. Be sure the publisher is The Theosophical Society. They are dense and eloquently written, but I think they'll answer all your questions.

**CFTraveler** · 25th June 2013, 05:01 PM

I read about half of Isis Unveiled. Someday I'll finish it. The density really bored me, but no one else seems to share this view.

**Sinera** · 25th June 2013, 06:49 PM

I wrote a metal song and use a longer quote of her from this work in the lyrics, but I only skimmed this work and did not read it all (another one howerver which was very good: The Key To Theosophy, so if IU bores you, you might try that one, it's okay and not too boring at all).

Maybe I will publish the song one day (put a link here) but it isn't ready yet. I've been working on it for years now, every now and then, I'm a lazy producer

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