Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: This is how a Christian can practice magic

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    131
    Blog Entries
    9

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by agapelove View Post
    Deut. 32, Psalm 82, the New Testament, and where and why Christian theology and philosophy differs from Occult and New Age theology and philosophy. For any Christian who wishes to practice magic, these are some of the ideas that need to be thought about and addressed.

    First, let's recap what's been said already:

    This is how I would define a Christian:

    1.) You believe that the God of Israel is the only uncreated, ontologically unique and superior being.
    2.) You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the only physical incarnation of the God of Israel.
    3.) You believe that there is something separating us from God and that in some way this was repaired, or at least began to be repaired, at the resurrection.
    4.) You believe that Christ is the only way of "salvation" (it's in quotes because who really knows what that means? We'll discuss it later.)
    5.) You believe in the literal death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Deut 32:8 says ( 2 different translations, one from Formal Equivalence, the other from Dynamic Equivalence),

    "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
    when he divided mankind,
    he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
    according to the number of the sons of God.[b]"

    "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
    when he divided up humankind,
    he set the boundaries of the peoples,
    according to the number of the heavenly assembly."

    Deut 32 is saying that after the tower of Babel incident, YHVH gave dominion over the Earth to lesser gods. This is the ancient Jewish explanation for where the pantheons came from. Then, He started over, from scratch, with Abraham, He set aside Israel as His particular portion to be His inheritance.

    Israel was supposed to:

    1.) Remain completely separate from the other nations. Why? Because they (Israel) were Yahweh's own portion.
    2.) Remain completely separate from the gods of these other nations. Why? Because the other people belonged to these gods and Israel belonged to Yahweh.
    3.) Follow the Law given to Moses. Basically, live the way your God wants you to.

    The plan, if they had actually done these things, was to bring the rest of the world back to Yahweh through the conduit of Israel. Jerusalem was supposed to be Yahweh's dwelling place on Earth, the nations would repent, and everything would be hunky dory.

    As we all know, Israel sucked at this and failed. However, it turns out that mortals aren't the only ones who didn't do their jobs well. Here's Psalm 82:

    "God has taken his place in the divine council;
    in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
    2 “How long will you judge unjustly
    and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
    3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
    maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
    4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
    5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
    they walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
    6 I said, “You are gods,
    sons of the Most High, all of you;
    7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
    and fall like any prince.”[a]
    8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
    for you shall inherit all the nations!"

    This basically says that the gods who were given dominion over the Earth after Babel weren't very good stewards. In fact, they receive a judgment, and a pretty harsh one at that: Death! They are sentenced to lose their immortality.

    So, in the OT here's the hierarchy:

    1.) Invisible Yahweh
    2.) Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
    3.) Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
    4.) Angels (aka “messengers”)

    Keep this in mind:

    6
    I said, “You are gods,
    sons of the Most High, all of you;
    7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
    and fall like any prince.”[a]
    8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
    for you shall inherit all the nations!"

    This where the New Testament comes in. The NT says that Christians will replace and judge these gods or cosmic beings. I cannot stress this enough: the Cosmic Beings who are currently running things are going to die, losing their immortality, and then be replaced by us.

    This is why Paul, in Corinthians, says, “Do you not know that we are to judge angels?”

    Remember the Old Testament hierarchy:

    1. Invisible Yahweh
    2. Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
    3. Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
    4. Angels (aka “messengers”)


    New Testament theology states that we get promoted to #3. That is why in the NT these beings are never talked about positively, only negatively (the only possibility would be the “glorious ones” of Jude and Peter). We’re taking their jobs and they’re basically getting thrown out—in fact, they receive a death sentence. No wonder they’re pissed.

    Now let’s get to comparing and contrasting (just a few to start):

    Judeo-Christian:
    Dualism: God is separate from everything else (creation).

    Occult and New Age:
    Monism: God is not separate, everything is a part of God, (The ALL).

    Judeo-Christian:
    God has a family and He wants us in it. He wants us as sons and daughters.

    Occult and New Age:
    People and other beings aren’t part of God’s family, they are a part of Him.

    Judeo-Christian:
    People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through the work of Christ.

    Occult and New Age:
    People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through slow evolution and spiritual exercises.

    Goodbye for now!

    Awesome post, following the logic herein, how does an immortal being die?

    Is this referring to a material being dying or a non-material being?

    I ask, as either way energy "can not be destroyed", only transformed, as quantum physics demonstrates.

    Also, what is the definition of the word "die" in your post as you choose to use it.

    Does it mean:
    *Transformation
    *Non-existence
    *Separation
    *Unity
    *Other?
    “Vision without action is daydream.
    Action without vision is nightmare.”
    —Japanese Proverb

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    131
    Blog Entries
    9

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by IA56 View Post
    Yes, I can very much agree with this writer, I have own experience to have met JHWH on what I call divider line, the line between duality and infinity the Oneness...I wouldn´t have understood the difference if not I got to experienced it through JHWH, it like echoed through him so I could understand the difference....Everything happens in duality and here are all the Changes made and has to be made Before you can enter to Oneness....and all re-incarnation happens in duality over and over again until you are ready to enter to Oneness, pure and willing to be part of the Oneness without ego and what we call here ...personality...or individuality....In Oneness we are part of the ONE and not fractioned as here in duality.

    Love
    ia

    I find it an erroneous assumption in New Age thought that one must be either "blissfully submerged" into Oneness or an individual, the many writings of channelled Mediums such as the Seth material, Abraham (Jerry and Esther Hick), Bashar, Lazaris, Pleiadean, Ashtar and friends clearly demonstrates "Group Consciousness" that is made up of Individuals.

    I find that the wish to be submerged into "oneness" or nothingness it not that different from Nihilism.

    It also suggests taking no responsibility for your thoughts/actions/creation, instead relying on a cosmic parent, authority figure, rather than being a conscious co-creator.

    Of course, this is just my current opinion, and I may be wrong.
    “Vision without action is daydream.
    Action without vision is nightmare.”
    —Japanese Proverb

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,086

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by John Sorensen View Post
    I find it an erroneous assumption in New Age thought that one must be either "blissfully submerged" into Oneness or an individual, the many writings of channelled Mediums such as the Seth material, Abraham (Jerry and Esther Hick), Bashar, Lazaris, Pleiadean, Ashtar and friends clearly demonstrates "Group Consciousness" that is made up of Individuals.

    I find that the wish to be submerged into "oneness" or nothingness it not that different from Nihilism.

    It also suggests taking no responsibility for your thoughts/actions/creation, instead relying on a cosmic parent, authority figure, rather than being a conscious co-creator.

    Of course, this is just my current opinion, and I may be wrong.
    Hi John,
    I am not sure what your are saying, but my experience with the JHWH was to understand the distintion between duality and non-duality...It was absolut to take own responsibillity for own actions and know that what you sow you reap, and to go through the narrow gate into the infinit where it is all but very different how it is in duality.
    I did get to know that you can keep going in the re-incarnation Wheel and it is okay, or you can take the direct path so to speak, but it is more challenging...I do not say at all what I Think you Think I am...when you say New Age...I am far from that, but what is wrong with me is my disabillity to make me understood by word´s.
    So I would appreciata if you would have a non jugmental tone against me, I have just started to study Gnosis and Kabbalah, I have not studied Bible but I get a lot quetes send to me into my mind, so in some Life or level I must have known much about religions...My take to religions today is...that all religions have the same core...so a metaphor I like to use is...that it does not matter from what side of the moutain you climb you will reach the top eventually
    So I ask for your patience and understanding, I am very fragile individual trying to find my strength in the World to be able to paritiscipate in conversations like this. Just saying...and hoping to grow as a human, as a soul it does not matter that much, so to speak, I have learned to be by my self too, but I am not going to go into a dispute or hars argument, it is not Worth it.

    Love
    ia
    Core Affirmation: I am loved and I am worthy,
    I am safe and I am free.
    I am powerfully protected.
    I am master of my body and ruler of my mind.
    By Robert Bruce

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    131
    Blog Entries
    9

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by IA56 View Post
    Hi John,
    I am not sure what your are saying, but my experience with the JHWH was to understand the distintion between duality and non-duality...It was absolut to take own responsibillity for own actions and know that what you sow you reap, and to go through the narrow gate into the infinit where it is all but very different how it is in duality.
    I did get to know that you can keep going in the re-incarnation Wheel and it is okay, or you can take the direct path so to speak, but it is more challenging...I do not say at all what I Think you Think I am...when you say New Age...I am far from that, but what is wrong with me is my disabillity to make me understood by word´s.
    So I would appreciata if you would have a non jugmental tone against me, I have just started to study Gnosis and Kabbalah, I have not studied Bible but I get a lot quetes send to me into my mind, so in some Life or level I must have known much about religions...My take to religions today is...that all religions have the same core...so a metaphor I like to use is...that it does not matter from what side of the moutain you climb you will reach the top eventually
    So I ask for your patience and understanding, I am very fragile individual trying to find my strength in the World to be able to paritiscipate in conversations like this. Just saying...and hoping to grow as a human, as a soul it does not matter that much, so to speak, I have learned to be by my self too, but I am not going to go into a dispute or hars argument, it is not Worth it.

    Love
    ia
    I am not looking for arguments, just stating a different point of view.

    I am stimulated by contrasts and different points of view, and enjoy reading your posts.

    My comment was more in general and not directed specifically at you.

    You already have all the strength you need. Your thoughts and mind are your own, and you imagination knows no limits, and what greater strength is there than that, in this world or the next.

    My manner is rather direct, and at times too strong/arrogant for some people, I apologise as my intent was not to "attack" you as such, but re-reading my post, it does come across that way, next time I will choose my words better.

    pathstoheaven.jpg
    “Vision without action is daydream.
    Action without vision is nightmare.”
    —Japanese Proverb

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,086

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by John Sorensen View Post
    I am not looking for arguments, just stating a different point of view.

    I am stimulated by contrasts and different points of view, and enjoy reading your posts.

    My comment was more in general and not directed specifically at you.

    You already have all the strength you need. Your thoughts and mind are your own, and you imagination knows no limits, and what greater strength is there than that, in this world or the next.

    My manner is rather direct, and at times too strong/arrogant for some people, I apologise as my intent was not to "attack" you as such, but re-reading my post, it does come across that way, next time I will choose my words better.

    pathstoheaven.jpg
    Hi John,
    I do not Think you have to change your "manner" when I learn to know you, so thank you for telling as you did, and that you know yourself so well, yes it did come through as arrogance and intensity like an attack, and it is okay I am not going to re-make you so to speak, but as I feel, it is good to let one and Another know how we are, then it is better Communication. Now you know how sensitive I am, so carry on being you, I am willing to "train" my self in your Company, if you understand what and how I mean??
    I am very sensitive to being cattegorized as you say, I am free and without any boundaries...I am cutting of the chaines what has bean holding be back and made me fearful to my own nature.
    Thank you for being so frank and truthful, I like you.

    Love
    ia
    Core Affirmation: I am loved and I am worthy,
    I am safe and I am free.
    I am powerfully protected.
    I am master of my body and ruler of my mind.
    By Robert Bruce

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma USA
    Posts
    995
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by John
    I find that the wish to be submerged into "oneness" or nothingness it not that different from Nihilism.
    Quote Originally Posted by John
    It also suggests taking no responsibility for your thoughts/actions/creation, instead relying on a cosmic parent, authority figure, rather than being a conscious co-creator.
    Ouch. The first statement totally misses the point. Nihilism rejects, philosophically, the meaning of opposing philosophical paradigms and does not speak to the awareness associated with Nirvana.

    With the second you actually redeem yourself to some extent by even mentioning the true nature of 'oneness' - the realization of being a co-creator. Personally I am more conservative than even that by the understanding that the personality, the notion that a person is somehow conserved in his individuality even at the high stage or awareness of Nirvana, is a myth of peculiar Western origins. To become a drop in the sea of consciousness is the true liberation on the one hand, and communion on the other.

    Sure it's been mentioned (I haven't read the tread) that the list is a long one of Christian mystics. St John of Cross has been a study of mine. Esoterically, Christian mystics do not part from their eastern analogs. Exoterically is a much different question.
    Matter is only mind in an opaque condition; and all beauty is but a symbol of spirit.
    - E Hubbard

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny Climes
    Posts
    13,526
    Blog Entries
    64

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    I think, as interesting as the thread is, that most of you are missing the point of the OP's reason for posting this thread. He's not trying to describe reality from the point of view of eastern or western mysticism, or any combination thereof- he is, as a 'traditional' practicing christian, justifying mystical pursuits within the 'fundamentally-oriented' christian paradigm, basically for any evangelical or fundamental christian to see. I see this as valuable, because it doesn't substitute his particular beliefs for ours, it simply makes it 'ok' within his paradigm to pursue this type of search.
    https://linktr.ee/CoralieCFTraveler
    Rules:http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/faq.php
    "Stop acting as if life is a rehearsal" Dr. Wayne Dyer.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma USA
    Posts
    995
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Did I say it somewhere else? There is a long list of Christian mystics. However they were of esoterica. Exoteric teachings warn against mysticism of any sort. St. John of Cross - a Benedictine monk, was a study I undertook years ago and describes the Ascent of Mt. Carmel which is a good and poetic description of the path to Christ Consciousnes.
    Matter is only mind in an opaque condition; and all beauty is but a symbol of spirit.
    - E Hubbard

  9. Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    CFT--I'm short on time right now, I'd like to write more...but I just wanted to say thank you so much. Broadly, the purpose of this thread is for people who are unwilling to accept that the God of Israel (and in the NT Christ) is not THE GOD and for people unwilling to accept theistic monism (I think you can easily have monism without God being part of it, but that's for another time).

    Christians who are interested in the these types of things read books like PhD and neuroscientist Mario Beauregard's Spritual Brain and Brain Wars. The books are written by secular, non-Christian academics. What I want to do is try to address problems like this:

    These books are written to argue against Philosophical Materialist Reductionism and to address the mind/body problem. One of the evidences used in the books are NDEs and OBEs. What I want to answer is, if Christians are totally prohibited from transgressing the boundary between "heaven" and "earth," (and I have a pretty good theory that the boundary may have been done away with--the rending of the veil in the temple at Christ's death--more later). How are we ever supposed to convince a scientist that a spiritual dimension does exist if we're not allowed to purposely induce OBEs? Do you see how we're caught between a rock and a hard place?

    And then, say string theory finds a way to access any old dimension with technology instead of with spiritual techniques. What then? Is it just the next new technology, or is it morally wrong to use such technology?

    If Christians do turn out to be right, then what we have is only "bad" (sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm so sorry) people accessing the immaterial realm. That doesn't seem right to me?

    Thanks again for your super helpful reply.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    131
    Blog Entries
    9

    Re: This is how a Christian can practice magic

    Quote Originally Posted by CFTraveler View Post
    I think, as interesting as the thread is, that most of you are missing the point of the OP's reason for posting this thread. He's not trying to describe reality from the point of view of eastern or western mysticism, or any combination thereof- he is, as a 'traditional' practicing christian, justifying mystical pursuits within the 'fundamentally-oriented' christian paradigm, basically for any evangelical or fundamental christian to see. I see this as valuable, because it doesn't substitute his particular beliefs for ours, it simply makes it 'ok' within his paradigm to pursue this type of search.

    Whoops, I didn't read all of the first post in this thread, only the following posts. If I'm going on a tangent, I'll just start a new thread, *apologies*
    “Vision without action is daydream.
    Action without vision is nightmare.”
    —Japanese Proverb

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 15th August 2013, 05:04 AM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 22nd June 2013, 04:00 PM
  3. Christian Mystic
    By CFTraveler in forum The Power of Love
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 23rd March 2010, 08:51 AM
  4. Christian Mystics
    By ButterflyWoman in forum Mysticism
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 26th March 2009, 04:18 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
01 TITLE
01 block content This site is under development!
02 Links block
02 block content

ad_bluebearhealing_astraldynamics 

ad_neuralambience_astraldynamics