Employing psychic powers for political purpose

[Seeuzin]

TL;DR version:

I admire your will to fight. I wouldn't call what you did "for political purpose," only because in my opinion, "political purpose" implies worldly-minded manipulation. The words I'd use for it would be fighting the darkness, and that is always a good idea. Even if I disagree because I'm a China-phile. :p Your intention is straight-on!! If you were manipulating to try and nudge a political process because, say, you thought Candidate X might allow you to make more money (the kind of manipulation a corporation or entity like that would want,) then I'd disagree with that entirely obviously, but yeah.

For myself, as a US citizen, I trust my government and that of China roughly the same (they're both evil.) I wouldn't personally feel right doing visualization for my country against another, even if I though it'd be ineffectual. But I think I understand what you mean by the dread you felt. I feel uneasiness with space exploration by our and China's governments alike.

Long version:

I've been struggling with this one for a while too.

I've been having a lot of conversations with Source lately. I had read a story in the news about a woman who was raped in an alley in NYC - all passerby ignored her.

Why didn't they react?

"If I were her," I thought, "I would have understood (in retrospect) their desires to save their own skin. But what I would NOT have understood was their inability to look." I remember thinking that, had I been her, it would have meant the world to me had even one person turned their head. Even if they were unable to help - say my attackers were many, and the onlooker was frail - that they had wanted to help would have mattered, and mattered deeply.

Something about witnessing matters.

Primarily I was thinking along these lines because of a recent experience I had. I would yell at God inwardly, an insane monologue: "Goddamnit, Universe, if you EVER let me out of here, I swear...I will become better than you. I won't let good people go through anything like this...anytime I'm capable I will step in. You're evil! Look at how you let those who want to help others get steamrolled; you let their souls rot, and then you kill them. And you don't even look. You turn your back on them."

Become better than God? I knew it didn't make any sense. But if God would provide me with no comfort, then I would become a source of comfort, myself: I would create a caring and strong heart in me. Or die trying.

*************

To the topic.
Something about bad experiences creates a warrior spirit. I can understand where you're coming from in wanting to fight darkness.

One thing I read recently did give me pause. A yogi was teaching in a prison in New Jersey. He spoke of trying to fight darkness: "Which is more effective? If we were in a dark room, suppose I gave you and your fellows sticks, and said, 'Beat the darkness out!' Chances are you would only end up accidentally beating each other. And it would not work. But light one candle, and all is light!"

Since reading that, I've been wondering intensely. The use of force seems essential. Noone would say that "lighting a candle" in that dark alleyway would have helped that woman; she needed someone to intervene, and with force that had teeth. Still, I keep going back to that passage in my mind. Recently, however, I read a chant from the Vedas. I forget exactly how it went, but it was something like this:

"Oh Ishwaar (God)! You feel powerful rage/indignation at crimes and criminals; let us also feel the same anger at crimes and criminals.

Oh Ishwaar! You feel delight when men draw near to you and grow in wisdom/virtue; let us also delight in the wise and virtuous."

There was more; not only feeling anger when evil is committed, but fighting to end injustice. It seemed to break some of the brain-fog that I felt when I had read the yogi's words about the candle. Yes, it is "okay" to fight, I thought.

In conclusion: I admire your will to fight. I wouldn't call what you did "for political purpose," only because in my opinion, "political purpose" implies worldly-minded manipulation. The words I'd use for it would be fighting the darkness, and that is always a good idea. Even if I disagree because I'm a China-phile. :p Your intention is straight-on!! If you were manipulating to try and nudge a political process because, say, you thought Candidate X might allow you to make more money (the kind of manipulation a corporation or entity like that would want,) then I'd disagree with that entirely obviously, but yeah.

For myself, as a US citizen, I trust my government and that of China roughly the same (they're both evil.) I wouldn't personally feel right doing visualization for my country against another, even if I thought it'd be ineffectual. But I think I understand what you mean by the dread you felt. I feel uneasiness with space exploration by our and China's governments alike.

[IA56]

Long version:

I've been struggling with this one for a while too.

I've been having a lot of conversations with Source lately. I had read a story in the news about a woman who was raped in an alley in NYC - all passerby ignored her.

Why didn't they react?

"If I were her," I thought, "I would have understood (in retrospect) their desires to save their own skin. But what I would NOT have understood was their inability to look." I remember thinking that, had I been her, it would have meant the world to me had even one person turned their head. Even if they were unable to help - say my attackers were many, and the onlooker was frail - that they had wanted to help would have mattered, and mattered deeply.

Something about witnessing matters.

Primarily I was thinking along these lines because of a recent experience I had. I would yell at God inwardly, an insane monologue: "Goddamnit, Universe, if you EVER let me out of here, I swear...I will become better than you. I won't let good people go through anything like this...anytime I'm capable I will step in. You're evil! Look at how you let those who want to help others get steamrolled; you let their souls rot, and then you kill them. And you don't even look. You turn your back on them."

Become better than God? I knew it didn't make any sense. But if God would provide me with no comfort, then I would become a source of comfort, myself: I would create a caring and strong heart in me. Or die trying.

*************

To the topic.
Something about bad experiences creates a warrior spirit. I can understand where you're coming from in wanting to fight darkness.

One thing I read recently did give me pause. A yogi was teaching in a prison in New Jersey. He spoke of trying to fight darkness: "Which is more effective? If we were in a dark room, suppose I gave you and your fellows sticks, and said, 'Beat the darkness out!' Chances are you would only end up accidentally beating each other. And it would not work. But light one candle, and all is light!"

Since reading that, I've been wondering intensely. The use of force seems essential. Noone would say that "lighting a candle" in that dark alleyway would have helped that woman; she needed someone to intervene, and with force that had teeth. Still, I keep going back to that passage in my mind. Recently, however, I read a chant from the Vedas. I forget exactly how it went, but it was something like this:

"Oh Ishwaar (God)! You feel powerful rage/indignation at crimes and criminals; let us also feel the same anger at crimes and criminals.

Oh Ishwaar! You feel delight when men draw near to you and grow in wisdom/virtue; let us also delight in the wise and virtuous."

There was more; not only feeling anger when evil is committed, but fighting to end injustice. It seemed to break some of the brain-fog that I felt when I had read the yogi's words about the candle. Yes, it is "okay" to fight, I thought.

In conclusion: I admire your will to fight. I wouldn't call what you did "for political purpose," only because in my opinion, "political purpose" implies worldly-minded manipulation. The words I'd use for it would be fighting the darkness, and that is always a good idea. Even if I disagree because I'm a China-phile. :p Your intention is straight-on!! If you were manipulating to try and nudge a political process because, say, you thought Candidate X might allow you to make more money (the kind of manipulation a corporation or entity like that would want,) then I'd disagree with that entirely obviously, but yeah.

For myself, as a US citizen, I trust my government and that of China roughly the same (they're both evil.) I wouldn't personally feel right doing visualization for my country against another, even if I thought it'd be ineffectual. But I think I understand what you mean by the dread you felt. I feel uneasiness with space exploration by our and China's governments alike.

I want only to say...WHY do we still nurture the thought of a warior??..Mahatma Gandhi did show to us that it is possible to by Peace actions and love change nations...we have to start to refuse to lift up our weapons...and say...NO...we are not going to fight each other´s....there is NO enemy...we all are same rase...HUMANS!!!

Love
ia

[Seeuzin]

IA56,

I used to think the same way.

Now I feel very twisted by what I have been through.

It's hard to know if the change in my opinion is accurate, or a byproduct of the twisting.

I'm sorry that I have hit a nerve in you.

*********

I was reading recently about a meeting between Ghandi and Winston Churchill, prior to British involvement in WW2. Winston was for the use of force, but had agreed to hear Ghandi out.

Ghandi had witnessed the brutality, the full force and shock of the war apparatus of Great Britain, in his country. He had seen India raped and plundered at the hands of a brutal oppressor; he had been thrown in prison merely for offering peaceable opposition to it.

Ghandi was against the use of British military force against Hitler. The reasons are obvious to me, now, but it shocked me to the core when I first read it. Ghandi most likely agreed that what Hitler did was evil. But he was thinking of the people of Germany, too; what would they suffer at the hands of such a barbarous force as the same army that had brought India to its knees; subjugated it so utterly?

In the meeting, Ghandi pleaded for non-violence with Churchill. The meeting ended with Churchill remarking derisively, as Ghandi left, that he'd "be a fool to listen to what a man in a loincloth had to say."

This story always stayed with me. Let me also add that I have a special place in my heart for the Jews, though I've no Jewish ancestors of my own.

Yet sometimes, I agree with Ghandi.

I am grateful that someone was willing to stand up against Hitler and rally others to do the same. But here was the meeting of two great minds - both of which I had long admired - and here they were in dire opposition. The whole story gave me pause.

***********

When it comes to darkness: Warrior spirit vs. peace and love.

I don't know the answer.

[IA56]

IA56,

I used to think the same way.

Now I feel very twisted by what I have been through.

It's hard to know if the change in my opinion is accurate, or a byproduct of the twisting.

I'm sorry that I have hit a nerve in you.

*********

I was reading recently about a meeting between Ghandi and Winston Churchill, prior to British involvement in WW2. Winston was for the use of force, but had agreed to hear Ghandi out.

Ghandi had witnessed the brutality, the full force and shock of the war apparatus of Great Britain, in his country. He had seen India raped and plundered at the hands of a brutal oppressor; he had been thrown in prison merely for offering peaceable opposition to it.

Ghandi was against the use of British military force against Hitler. The reasons are obvious to me, now, but it shocked me to the core when I first read it. Ghandi most likely agreed that what Hitler did was evil. But he was thinking of the people of Germany, too; what would they suffer at the hands of such a barbarous force as the same army that had brought India to its knees; subjugated it so utterly?

In the meeting, Ghandi pleaded for non-violence with Churchill. The meeting ended with Churchill remarking derisively, as Ghandi left, that he'd "be a fool to listen to what a man in a loincloth had to say."

This story always stayed with me. Let me also add that I have a special place in my heart for the Jews, though I've no Jewish ancestors of my own.

Yet sometimes, I agree with Ghandi.

I am grateful that someone was willing to stand up against Hitler and rally others to do the same. But here was the meeting of two great minds - both of which I had long admired - and here they were in dire opposition. The whole story gave me pause.

***********

When it comes to darkness: Warrior spirit vs. peace and love.

I don't know the answer.

You did not hit any nerv in me only I am happy you brought this subject up, thank you

What I feel is that Gandhi did not succeed to reach into every person...that if everyone did say NO to not take up their weapons and that everyone say NO...there wouldn´t have to start any war at all....and such person as Hitler wouldn´t had any opportunity to rule..but as we know we are week and seek after to be rich...and as long as this part is alive in us..we can be bought with right sum of Money or other items´s we want...as payment for cruelty to be done...SO...If everyone rather die than harm others...we very soon will have this problem solved....

Love
ia

[Seeuzin]

You did not hit any nerv in me only I am happy you brought this subject up, thank you

You are such a sweet spirit, IA.

we are week and seek after to be rich...and as long as this part is alive in us..we can be bought with right sum of Money or other items´s we want...as payment for cruelty to be done...

This hits a HUGE chord in me. Lately I have been realizing that not only in terms of money....but on every level...that darkness can only use two things against me: what I want, and what I don't want. Those are its primary weapons.

In short, when someone seeks to manipulate me, that's what they generally use. Pain/pleasure, fear/comfort, anger/addiction, scarcity/need-and-greed....even classic "hurt-and-rescue"....the dyad comes in different forms. And it is darkness that seeks to manipulate: good does not. If I want to be free from darkness, then I need to penetrate the fog and confusion and wanting and aversion, which are all tied together.

I think that's what the Buddha taught, but my brain's very fuzzy. He called the wants/not wants clinging and aversion, right?

And the Buddha was a peaceful man.

I have to apologize to Eyeoneblack. I have taken this thread far afield. I'll leave it for now. When I've slept well it'll be easier to stay on-topic, and I'll be back.

- Seeuzin

[ButterflyWoman]

that darkness can only use two things against me: what I want, and what I don't want.

Which is why the Buddha was big on releasing attachment to things, especially to things you do want and things you don't want. Jesus had similar sayings, though they're not that emphasised in the formal religion that sprang up around his teachings. Pretty much all great masters have come to understand that our desire is the thing that controls us.

[I-stone]

If compassion and love calls you to do something, then do it.

Suzan, I think there is a reason why 'only God knows the day and time of Christ's return'. At any time any one of such sparks of God may become the whole. Then what to do with the world?
Some understand that, and they can change the course of the world quite easily. So why havent they? Because there is nothing wrong with the world? Or is it because we are each that person.

i know, quoting scripture, but I dont know anyone better than Jesus for teaching limitless power.

"anything is possible"
"When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly." Jesus said to him, "Shall I come and heal him?" The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith."
If you change the world, it will be as a wave of your arm.

[Eyeswideopen]

I found this interesting :

Desire has been a big topic of controversy in the spiritual community.
Spiritual teachers (Like the Buddha) say that desire is the root of suffering. They say that happiness is the result of learning how to rid oneself of desire. But even the desire to rid yourself of desire, is a desire. So you can never truly rid yourself of desire and you can never lie to yourself enough to convince yourself that you don't want what you want. The desire that is emanating from every being in existence is what is causing the expansion of this universe. To come here and to not desire is to promote ended-ness within the universe. It goes directly against the reason you chose to come into physical existence to begin with. You are designed to desire. Desire is as true to you as pure being-ness. So why does desire cause us pain? The answer is, it doesn't.
Desire never caused pain. It's what we add to desire that causes us pain. What makes desire painful is thoughts like these: I can't have what I desire. I don't deserve to have what I want. I'm not good enough until I get this thing that I desire. What causes pain is continuing to focus on what you don't have or don't like or don't want after you have already given birth to the idea of what you do want.
There is no reason to feel as if desire is the enemy. Everything you love about existence, from living in houses instead of caves, to that perfect piece of chocolate cake, is available to you now because it was once the byproduct of someone else's desire and now, it is the byproduct of yours.

[IA56]

I found this interesting :

Desire has been a big topic of controversy in the spiritual community.
Spiritual teachers (Like the Buddha) say that desire is the root of suffering. They say that happiness is the result of learning how to rid oneself of desire. But even the desire to rid yourself of desire, is a desire. So you can never truly rid yourself of desire and you can never lie to yourself enough to convince yourself that you don't want what you want. The desire that is emanating from every being in existence is what is causing the expansion of this universe. To come here and to not desire is to promote ended-ness within the universe. It goes directly against the reason you chose to come into physical existence to begin with. You are designed to desire. Desire is as true to you as pure being-ness. So why does desire cause us pain? The answer is, it doesn't.
Desire never caused pain. It's what we add to desire that causes us pain. What makes desire painful is thoughts like these: I can't have what I desire. I don't deserve to have what I want. I'm not good enough until I get this thing that I desire. What causes pain is continuing to focus on what you don't have or don't like or don't want after you have already given birth to the idea of what you do want.
There is no reason to feel as if desire is the enemy. Everything you love about existence, from living in houses instead of caves, to that perfect piece of chocolate cake, is available to you now because it was once the byproduct of someone else's desire and now, it is the byproduct of yours.

Hi EWO
There is difference between desire and desire....there is desire what causes suffering and there is decire what causes your soul to grow and develop so to speak

Love
ia

[CFTraveler]

I would say that even the word that was used was desire, I think attachment to desire is what he meant. My opinion, of course. You can still desire and have no attachment to the outcome-and remember that the object for him was liberation. Not everyone wants to be liberated.