What do you gain from enlightment

[Terry]

Something else in this thread that I want to comment on, is that I am still finding it tricky to maintain appropriate balance between being present in my material reality and interactive with it, and being detached (sometimes very detached). There IS a balance, there must be, but it's easy to get drawn into the day-to-day goings on your material story, and it's also easy to drift away into blissful detachment where you're just "above it all". There is, as Buddha said, a "middle path" (I'm paraphrasing, and taking that somewhat out of context, I know, but the sentiment is applicable), and I'm still trying to find that, and remain on it. If you prefer a more Westernised version of the sentiment, to be "in the world, but not of the world" as written by St Paul.

I know what you are saying, I went through this as well. In the end I discovered that I could particpate in life, interact within it and still have an awakened consciousness. It is a fine line too much one way or the other and you are either too in the moment and detached or fall back into ego consciousness. Though for me the ego based consciousness is a different experience than before I don't get stuck or walled off in it, though sometimes I operate from this state my new default state that I always revert to is a quite awareness just being present in the now. It sort of scared me a little in the beginning experiencing life this way and not having the self-talk or voice of the ego chattering away. Just quiet awareness, thought I was broken for a second and it disturbed me, I got over it though rather quickly.

[Terry]

Another thing that I find interesting is that I am very accute to my own emotions and mental state. When I get annoyed for whatever reason, standing in line at a store and someone does something that extends my wait or someone in a car ahead of me keeps changing lanes and cuts me off more than once I feel the annoyance and sense of being pissed off while at the same time being detached in a quiet state of awareness. I get a sense of fascination with my body and this part that gets pissed off and even though I have a certain amount of detachment in the moment I also still experience emotion. Something I find interesting and marvelous at the sametime. I guess relieved in someway that I am not a zombie and whatever this enlightenment or awakening I have gone through hasn't dramatically altered my being and that I still am part of the human race.

[outofbodydude]

So I am wondering what it is that you gain when you experience the falling away of the ego and reaching an enlightend state of awareness? I have read enough to know what happens and I know it's an individual thing but, when you are in this state or through it, what actually changes.

What does the change of perception do for you. If you had a choice again to not have experienced this, would you now say no?

EWO

It sounds like what you are speaking of is a temporary state of "enlightenment" or loss of ego identity, as opposed to true enlightenment, which is the end goal of the Buddhist path. True enlightenment, liberation, Nibbana, whatever you wish to call it, is said to be a state of complete detachment from the attachments, aversions, identifications, and delusions of the mind, it is liberation from all forms of suffering, it is true freedom, a completely unconditioned state of being that has the highest forms of happiness, love, compassion, and equanimity as it's attributes. This state is said to be a direct result of the skillfully directed practice of the 8 fold path laid out by the Buddha. The temporary experience you have described seems like it would be rather unsatisfactory when compared to final liberation.

[ButterflyWoman]

... I feel the annoyance and sense of being pissed off while at the same time being detached in a quiet state of awareness. I get a sense of fascination with my body and this part that gets pissed off and even though I have a certain amount of detachment in the moment I also still experience emotion. Something I find interesting and marvelous at the sametime.

Yes, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. For me, it's still just a matter of finding and remaining in that in between space. It's actually a very, very pleasant place to be, and it's functional. If I go too far into detachment, I'm basically blissed out and not much use in the material world, and if I go too far into ego-self-material, I get quite caught up in it all and it's easy to lose perspective. I can "snap out" any time I want, but going back and forth is jarring and disorienting. Hence my understanding that there's a middle place (and I have been there plenty of times) and that this is where my conscious focus needs to remain most of the time.

[IA56]

So I am wondering what it is that you gain when you experience the falling away of the ego and reaching an enlightend state of awareness? I have read enough to know what happens and I know it's an individual thing but, when you are in this state or through it, what actually changes.

What does the change of perception do for you. If you had a choice again to not have experienced this, would you now say no?

EWO

Hi Dear EWO,
I wouldn´t change a bit of my Life or experiences, even it has bean horrible hard, but in the end when you are through the difficulty you feel blessed and Loved, and I understand more and more what Life is, and why I am here this time, to notice how much work there is to be done, does not frighten me anymore, or make me feel regret that I Went on this journey.
So the answere is: I will say YES to continue my journey, I want to feel real freedom, and I will, I will never give up.
I hope neighder will you, dear Ewo.

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

is said to be

You used that phrase multiple times. This is the problem with the word "enlightenment". It's said to be this or that, it's taught that it's this or that, but does the word even actually mean anything at all? I would say that it doesn't, not really. Dogma is dogma. There is probably some truth to most (not all) dogmas, but, ultimately, it's just repeating something that someone said, and until/unless it's experienced, it means nothing at all. The ONLY thing that is what you might call "real" (again, whatever that's supposed to mean!) is experience. Everything else is hearssay, including the contents of this thread.

[outofbodydude]

You used that phrase multiple times. This is the problem with the word "enlightenment". It's said to be this or that, it's taught that it's this or that, but does the word even actually mean anything at all? I would say that it doesn't, not really. Dogma is dogma. There is probably some truth to most (not all) dogmas, but, ultimately, it's just repeating something that someone said, and until/unless it's experienced, it means nothing at all. The ONLY thing that is what you might call "real" (again, whatever that's supposed to mean!) is experience. Everything else is hearsay, including the contents of this thread.

I use the phrase "it is said" to convey the fact that I do not know something through experience. It says nothing about the nature of the word "enlightenment" itself, it is simply a reflection of my honesty and my ability to acknowledge that which is currently out of my grasp of knowledge and understanding. Even if I do have the experience of something, I do not really know the truth of it on an ultimate level, I only know what my limited human mind believes it has experienced based on it's perceptions. This is especially true when it comes to something rather elusive and subjective like spiritual experiences. So in these cases, the phrase "it is said that" can be changed to "it is experienced that," although this does not necessarily mean that truth has been acquired, but simply that a certain type of experience has been had.

The word enlightenment is simply a label to classify and describe an aspect of reality, just like any other word. It may represent somewhat different concepts depending on the person or culture, just as the word "God" does, but the concepts that it represents are just as valid as any other concepts. They are simply fabrications of the mind representing an experience of reality.

[ButterflyWoman]

I use the phrase "it is said" to convey the fact that I do not know something through experience.

Yes. That was exactly my point. You see millions of people talking about "it's said that" and "I was taught that" and "the Church tells us" and so forth. And not just on matters religious/spiritual. It's everywhere, all the time. And that's what I was commenting on.

It says nothing about the nature of the word "enlightenment" itself, it is simply a reflection of my honesty and my ability to acknowledge that which is currently out of my grasp of knowledge and understanding. Even if I do have the experience of something, I do not really know the truth of it on an ultimate level, I only know what my limited human mind believes it has experienced based on it's perceptions.

Indeed. We have only our interpretation of our experiences. And every interpretation is unique, because every mind interpreting is unique.

The word enlightenment is simply a label to classify and describe an aspect of reality

Yes, I've been saying this for years. Maybe not those precise words. But that sentiment, certainly. And it's part of why I don't really like the word "enlightenment" very much. People use it with a LOT of assumptions about what it means, what's it's supposed to represent. Lots of dogma and expectation attached to it.

You're quite right that all words have expectations attached, but some are more pernicious than others. Just off the top of my head: enlightenment, salvation, truth, real...

[Terry]

Personally, I prefer to hear about peoples experiences than what was read in a book or what others said about...


Do my own experiences fit in that mold of what has been said "enlightenment" is suppose to be like? I think some of my experiences resemble what others have described while other aspects do not. I rather enjoy comparing my experiences and realizations with people like Butterfly Woman and others. Shows me that I am not alone in my experiences and can relate a lot with what has been shared through out history especially in gathering places like this virtually as well as face to face with people locally.


I appreciate the works of those that have come before but personally I don't think these experiences have anything to do with religion or religious views. It is a natural part of the human development process and a lot of what has been put out there has been subjugated (correct word?), by those that want to control and pollute the process through religious "rites" and requiring a "master" for lots of $$$. I have spent some monies to work with various shamans and energy workers over the years to help clear blockages, get guidance on certain specific things but overall I never had a "teacher" perse and instead learned through actual experience, sometimes painfully.


I find it neat that others have had similar or same experiences that I have but I don't really need some "guru" to tell me how to breathe or twist my body into a pretzel to experience things I already do naturally. Maybe I am just unique and these things people teach out there from thousand years ago is required but in my case and apparently others I have personally spoken with, worked with and places like this.. it's not.


Apparently there is passion about this subject because those from india and those that follow a spiritual "guru" absolutely go into fits when they discover that people are out there that never heard of let alone worked with the "guru" of the moment and have all by themselves seemingly attained heights of spiritual growth that to them is impossible without hiking up a mountain and sitting for years at the feet of guru wannabego or whoever. Robert Bruce has talked about meeting people like this and it matches a lot with my own experiences with people like this and religious people in general. If it isn't in their form of teaching from their version of the bible and their church leaders don't condone it then it's evil and satanic.


So yeah, I don't really put much value of what others say about these topics if there is no personal experience behind it. It's just hearsay, false beliefs and misunderstandings from my view point.

[Terry]

Yes, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. For me, it's still just a matter of finding and remaining in that in between space. It's actually a very, very pleasant place to be, and it's functional. If I go too far into detachment, I'm basically blissed out and not much use in the material world, and if I go too far into ego-self-material, I get quite caught up in it all and it's easy to lose perspective. I can "snap out" any time I want, but going back and forth is jarring and disorienting. Hence my understanding that there's a middle place (and I have been there plenty of times) and that this is where my conscious focus needs to remain most of the time.

I have been going through a conundrum on this myself. If I am here then I should be here and experience emotions and live here on the earth now and be part of my community. I get annoyed with what I see as a religious view, mainly because I first heard it from members of a pentecostal church I used to attend for a while, where the montra was and is live among them but don't be of them.. don't be of the earth, of the people. This puts a barrier instantly between yourself and life especially people, makes way for a better than you large ego driven perspective. It just feels wrong to me.

BUT...

From my other perspective I understand completely what is meant here but I also see it through wisdom and a lot of or I should say all the "born again" or "christians" I have ever personally met take this to such a degree that they become what I call inbred and prefer to associate with each other as much as possible. Easily turns into a cult even though they don't use that term.

I guess for me, I see the importance of limiting distractions while on the path to the state of mind, greater perspective that has been termed "enlightenment" but you can't stay isolated forever or you develop the same detachment that I think hinders your own growth and those you come into contact with. Even if you don't know it and just are standing in line behind someone at the store your influence is felt. I guess I just have a personal issue with the be among them but not of them mentality in that it promotes isolation which goes against source and when you are truly connected that attitude is rather obsolete.

I get frustrated with humanity at times.

I am not sure if any of that made sense but was curious about your view on this and I do understand the balance you are going for and maybe this isn't something that is applicable to you at least right now.

Thanks.