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Thread: Free Will Paradox

  1. #21

    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reav3R View Post
    Well you've mentioned my own point exactly, you can't logically prove is exists, you can't prove it doesn't exist either BUT if you prove it does exist, you also prove that it can't exist so it's a paradox. You don't prove it doesn't exist by failing to prove it does, there simply is no outcome where it can exist. It either doesn't exist, or it doesn't.

    P.S.: I don't think it was a good idea to move the thread here since it's not really a question, it's more like a theory.
    We can't really prove anything in the end though right? We can make make approximations of what we think will most likely happen based on what we know(knowledge as a subset of belief).
    I could show to you that i have the ability to drink. If the poision is drinkable you don't have any good reason to believe that i would lack the ability to drink it if i wanted to.
    You haveeyes each composed of 130 million photoreceptor cells. In each of those cells there’s 100 trillion atoms that’s more than all the stars in the Milky way galaxy.However each atom in each cell in each eye formed in the core of a star billions of years ago and yet here they are today being utilized to capture the energy released from that same process all to expand the consciousness of you. It's ironic in that you are the universe experiencing itself And all you are is a thought.

  2. #22
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    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by heliac View Post
    We can't really prove anything in the end though right? We can make make approximations of what we think will most likely happen based on what we know(knowledge as a subset of belief).
    I could show to you that i have the ability to drink. If the poision is drinkable you don't have any good reason to believe that i would lack the ability to drink it if i wanted to.
    My point is, the only way to prove you have the ability to drink it is by doing it. If you drink it, I argue that you didn't have the ability to not drink it, how will you prove me wrong?
    Light has no meaning without darkness, without chaos there is no order.

  3. #23
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    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reav3R View Post
    My point is, the only way to prove you have the ability to drink it is by doing it. If you drink it, I argue that you didn't have the ability to not drink it, how will you prove me wrong?
    I will give you a metaphore; I bow to you, the man standing behind me say...why do you moon at me...so this kind of arguments are going in circles and does not lead anywhere, but by all means, feel free to waist your time by pondering on them .

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  4. #24
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    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by IA56 View Post
    I will give you a metaphore; I bow to you, the man standing behind me say...why do you moon at me...so this kind of arguments are going in circles and does not lead anywhere, but by all means, feel free to waist your time by pondering on them .

    Love
    ia
    That's why it's a called a paradox.
    Light has no meaning without darkness, without chaos there is no order.

  5. #25
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    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reav3R View Post
    My point is, the only way to prove you have the ability to drink it is by doing it. If you drink it, I argue that you didn't have the ability to not drink it, how will you prove me wrong?
    I don't have to prove you wrong, because just before I chose to drink I wasn't drinking. So the act of doing something doesn't make something before it not have happened. If I sit in front of you, you say, make a choice, drink or not drink, and I choose to drink, you can stay there until the cows come home saying I didn't have the choice not to do it, but the fact I wasn't drinking before you challenged me, proves that I had a choice and made it. This is purely semantics, not logical at all.
    Reality by its nature changes constantly, and anything that happens at any moment is either by choice or chance, but is. Provided you're laboring under the assumption (and with this example, we have to) that what happens is real, this is really not an argument, just you saying something is a certain way because you say it is.
    Last edited by CFTraveler; 21st June 2014 at 03:47 AM.
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  6. #26

    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Where has the mind's sense of free will gotten the I that presupposes that action is based on volition...

    Every time I have tried to influence life, assuming I exist, and assuming that something needs to be changed, all I have found is that I have made things absolutely worse. Life could not unfold in the easy, free way that it naturally does without influence, and life became far more difficult.

    If life were a butterfly on the side of a tree, free will would be a person standing next to that tree deciding that butterfly would be more beautiful if it were flying. The person then pokes the wings of the butterfly trying to get it to move, and as a result, damages them. The butterfly can no longer fly. In free will's attempt to change life, free will continues to suffer as it hurts life, which was never in need of changing.

    What if "free will" is simply the nature of all things unmolested, and that using "free will" to compartmentalize things into mental specificity actually limits it? Why does it have to be yes or no? What if free will were the ability to make either decision of yes or no, without either answer being wholly right or wrong? The paradox wouldn't be a problem at that point, because there's nothing here to solve when there's no correct answer.

  7. #27
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    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by DerFürst View Post
    The paradox wouldn't be a problem at that point, because there's nothing here to solve when there's no correct answer.
    Best answer so far, I liked the way you described things.

    Also a wise man once told me, having free will is like being on a train that's moving north, you can't change the path the train moves but you can decide to move south inside the train, but you can only go until a certain point and the train will eventually arrive in the north.
    Light has no meaning without darkness, without chaos there is no order.

  8. #28

    Re: Free Will Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reav3R View Post
    Definition of Free Will (Assumption): We assume having free will means having the ability to pick one or more choice(s) (but not all) out of definite or indefinite choices; that one or more choice(s) could be any of the various options.
    The Paradox: The only way to prove that you have the ability to pick a (any) choice is by picking that (one) choice, and since you can only pick one or more (but not all) of the various choices, you can't prove that you had the ability to pick anything other than those particular choice(s) already made.
    Example: I give you a cup of fatal poison and ask you whether you have the ability to drink the cup. You can reason that you do have the ability but you won't drink it because of common sense. I argue that you don't have the ability to drink it because common sense prevents you from drinking it no matter how hard you try. You can't prove that you have the ability to drink it because you won't do it, so you don't have the ability to drink that cup. Consequently, you don't posses the free will to do so either. This example can be expanded to everything (minus choices already made).
    Conclusion: Since you can't make all the possible choices there is to make, you can't prove that you had the ability to choose any of those choices (other than the ones already made), therefore you had no control over the choices already made. Consequently, you don't posses any free will. By proving free will exists (making all possible choices at the same time), you also prove that it doesn't exist because if all choices can be made simultaneously, then the definition of free will would be invalid.

    Does that make any sense to anyone here?
    Let's break it even further.

    Will = ability to decide
    Free = without forcing you to a certain choice

    If you wanted to prove the free will, you had to prove first these two components.

    How do you decide that (this is) you (who) can decide?
    And, how do you judge that nothing influences your decision except yourself by any sort of manipulation?

    This is an old problem inherent in religions as well. Religions and ancient beliefs say about non-physical beings indeed trying all the time to influence living people (and non-living too). I face(d) them too, which I wrote about on AD.

    The answer is perception and extending it. If you cannot see where your will is coming from, you won't be able to prove anything due to having no "material" to use for proving anything. In short, it may be that we live in an illusion of purely free will. However, a will to discover will is a good choice in this quest, I think BTW If you remove the limitation of time, you may have all the options (possible choices) available at once, still having not resolved the free will dilemma.
    Changed essential thought:

    question everyone except yourself... just kidding


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