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Thread: Women, Fire and Dangerous Things...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFTraveler
    There are, however, strong arguments against the theory outlined by Darwin. Thus, although the general structure of evolution has generally been accepted by biologists, there is no similar agreement on its mechanisms.
    I agree. Having studied Anthropology in my original 4 years of college , what was considered evolutionary theory was quite more diverse than what is considered the same nowadays. The science of the 80's was not so married to Darwinism in a strict sense. Then came the politicizing of the theory, which IMO made it take a step backwards. But then it's just my perception.
    Personally, I don't know what I believe. There are ways of interpreting Genesis metaphorically that are perfectly compatible with Darwin; so I have no religious objections to it.

    On the other hand, I have no philosophical objections to Creationism.

    What I think is important is consistency. One who adopts a particular school of thought should follow through with it consistently. Creationism places stiff demands on one who wishes to do so consistently.

    I suppose I am most sympathetic to Intelligent Design. Certainly whatever evolved did so because of the inherent potential of matter to assume forms congenial to life. That potency didn't create itself. It had to have been in matter before matter was capable of evolution or else it couldn't have gotten anywhere to begin with.

  2. #22
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    I agree with you, but don't get used to it.
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  3. #23
    Surprisingly, so do I. I might lean more to any potential ID being directed at the initial conditions & thus making life inevitable, but it fits closer to what I think & learn than random brane collisions.

    I'm not by any means convinced, but the thought sits more easily. Particularly if Branes are aware!

    *walks away muttering... 'something must be wrong...'*

    *grins*

    ... a very reasonable post, Soph.
    Never doubt there is Truth, just doubt that you have it!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by journyman161
    Surprisingly, so do I. I might lean more to any potential ID being directed at the initial conditions & thus making life inevitable, but it fits closer to what I think & learn than random brane collisions.

    I'm not by any means convinced, but the thought sits more easily. Particularly if Branes are aware!

    *walks away muttering... 'something must be wrong...'*

    *grins*

    ... a very reasonable post, Soph.
    How perfectly delightful!!

    Personally I believe that everything seems to contain mind. I distinguish my belief from simple animism. Animism imagines that rocks, rivers, etc. are alive. I do not. They are merely accidental groupings of matter. But on a quantum level, there seems to be life in them -- they seem to contain effete mind as Charles Peirce said...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Peirce

    At the same time, I would repeat myself in saying that I have no particular problem with either Darwinism or with Creationism.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by I, Sophroniscus
    How, then did thinkers "from the time of Aristotle to the later work of Wittgenstein" view biological species?

    Aristotle, himself, considered the evolution of species, quoting Empedocles...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empedocles

    Aristotle rejected the idea, saying...
    For teeth and all other natural things either invariably or normally come about in a given way; but of not one of the results of chance or spontaneity is this true.
    ~ Physics

    His rejection of evolution, however, was complicated by his acceptance of the idea that animals can develop spontaneously due to chance events.

    The next major thinker on the subject was Lucretius...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretius

    who proposed a detailed theory in favor of evolution...
    [quote:35xvhoo1]The earth and sun formed from swirls of dust congregated from atoms colliding and vibrating in the void; early plants and animals sprang from the early earth's own substance because of the insistence of the atoms that formed the earth; the aging earth gave birth to a succession of animals including a series of progressively less brutish humans that made a succession of improved tools, laws, and civilizations with increasing complexity finally arriving at the current earth and lifeforms as they are.
    ~ On the Nature of Things

    Unfortunately the methods of science available at the time precluded general acceptance of his theory. It was not until Charles Darwin's book, The Origin of Species that the idea seriously came to be considered by scientists.

    There are, however, strong arguments against the theory outlined by Darwin. Thus, although the general structure of evolution has generally been accepted by biologists, there is no similar agreement on its mechanisms.[/quote:35xvhoo1]
    Another idea which Lakoff would have us abandon is "The mind is separate from, and independent of, the body."

    It is far from clear what he means. For the word, mind is used in a variety of senses. Some people consider the mind to be a part of man, saying that a man is composed of "body, mind and soul." On the other hand, many Western philosophers from Aristotle onward have tended to consider the mind to be a faculty of the soul. That is to say, the mind is man's ability to think, and not in a separate part of man.

    Aristotle divided the mind into two separate aspects, the active intellect and the passive intellect, with the active intellect illuminating the object of the senses and the passive intellect, somehow 'becoming' that object.

    Unfortunately, Aristotle's presentation of the subject is said to be one of the most obscure points in his work. Alexander of Aphrodisias is said to have asserted that the active intellect is God, Himself, acting in man. Islamic interpreters asserted that there is one active intellect for all men: Avicenna held that the passive intellect was individuated; Averrhoës held neither to be individuated.

    The Scholastics, following Albert the Great and Thomas Aquinas held the mind to be a mere faculty of the soul.

    Modern philosophy has tended to ignore the distinction between the active and passive intellects. Instead the mind has tended to be conceived more and more as a purely material, sensory activity. Immanuel Kant recognized a distinction between sense and mind, conceiving sense as purely objective and mind as purely subjective.

  6. #26
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by I, Sophroniscus
    Another idea which Lakoff would have us abandon is "The mind is separate from, and independent of, the body."

    It is far from clear what he means. For the word, mind is used in a variety of senses. Some people consider the mind to be a part of man, saying that a man is composed of "body, mind and soul." On the other hand, many Western philosophers from Aristotle onward have tended to consider the mind to be a faculty of the soul. That is to say, the mind is man's ability to think, and not in a separate part of man.

    Aristotle divided the mind into two separate aspects, the active intellect and the passive intellect, with the active intellect illuminating the object of the senses and the passive intellect, somehow 'becoming' that object.

    Unfortunately, Aristotle's presentation of the subject is said to be one of the most obscure points in his work. Alexander of Aphrodisias is said to have asserted that the active intellect is God, Himself, acting in man. Islamic interpreters asserted that there is one active intellect for all men: Avicenna held that the passive intellect was individuated; Averrhoës held neither to be individuated.

    The Scholastics, following Albert the Great and Thomas Aquinas held the mind to be a mere faculty of the soul.

    Modern philosophy has tended to ignore the distinction between the active and passive intellects. Instead the mind has tended to be conceived more and more as a purely material, sensory activity. Immanuel Kant recognized a distinction between sense and mind, conceiving sense as purely objective and mind as purely subjective.
    How, then does Lakoff conceive of the mind and how does he connect it with the body? There is only one index entry for mind -- and that as the 'Mind as body metaphor.' There are no index entries for soul or intellect. There is, however, a chapter title containing the word, mind -- The Mind-As-Machine Paradigm.
    The mind-as-machine view shares the traditional mind-body distinction, according to which the mind is disembodied, abstract, and independent of bodily functioning. According to this view, the mind is a computer with biological hardware and runs using programs essentially like those used in computers today.
    ~ page 338.

    So presumably, it is this view of the mind, that it is "disembodied, abstract, and independent of bodily functioning" which we must abandon.

  7. #27
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by I, Sophroniscus
    How, then does Lakoff conceive of the mind and how does he connect it with the body? There is only one index entry for mind -- and that as the 'Mind as body metaphor.' There are no index entries for soul or intellect. There is, however, a chapter title containing the word, mind -- The Mind-As-Machine Paradigm.
    The mind-as-machine view shares the traditional mind-body distinction, according to which the mind is disembodied, abstract, and independent of bodily functioning. According to this view, the mind is a computer with biological hardware and runs using programs essentially like those used in computers today.
    ~ page 338.

    So presumably, it is this view of the mind, that it is "disembodied, abstract, and independent of bodily functioning" which we must abandon.
    Did thinkers "from the time of Aristotle to the later work of Wittgenstein" hold to this Mind-As-Machine Paradigm?

    Certainly Aristotle did not. He was in many ways a proto-animist. Today we would say that fire and air rise while earth and water fall because of forces acting on them. Aristotle said that fire and water rise because they loved the heavens. He would say that earth and water fell because they loved stability at the center. Such proto-animism was accepted through the Middle Ages. It could have hardly been otherwise, given poetic imagery of the Bible...
    Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
    Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
    Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
    Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
    Let them all praise the LORD'S name; for the LORD commanded and they were created,
    Assigned them duties forever, gave them tasks that will never change.
    Praise the LORD from the earth, you sea monsters and all deep waters;
    You lightning and hail, snow and clouds, storm winds that fulfill his command;
    You mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars;
    You animals wild and tame, you creatures that crawl and fly;
    You kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all who govern on earth;
    Young men and women too, old and young alike.
    Let them all praise the LORD'S name, for his name alone is exalted, majestic above earth and heaven.
    The LORD has lifted high the horn of his people; to the glory of all the faithful, of Israel, the people near to their God. Hallelujah!
    ~ Psalm 148

    Thomas Aquinas described Aristotle's belief as natural desire. Thus fire naturally desired to rise and water to fall.

    The use of clocks during the Middle Ages seems to have been the first real machine of any significance. The early history of the clock is lacking, but it seems that clocks were used in the Twelfth Century. Such clocks were important for monasteries and churches, since prayers were supposed to occur at regular hours.

    It was René Descartes was seems to have inspired the dualistic thinking so common today. He thought of the bodies of animals as complex but reducible machines, thus formulating the mechanistic theory, also known as the "clockwork paradigm." Yet, at the same time, Descartes' dualism assigned mind to the realm of spirit, removed from the world of physics. Immanuel Kant accepted Descartes' dualism, though he made mind purely subjective.

    Thomas Hobbes on the other hand, assigned mind to physics, and sought to explain intellect as a form of sensation. Étienne Bonnot de Condillac developed John Locke's Empiricism ideas into Sensationism, pure and simple, in which all cognition was reduced to sense.

    Alan Turing would seem to be the true author of the Mind-As-Machine Paradigm. His Turing Test described in his 1950 paper "Computing machinery and intelligence" sets forth that claim that machines can be regarded as having minds.

  8. #28
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by I, Sophroniscus
    Did thinkers "from the time of Aristotle to the later work of Wittgenstein" hold to this Mind-As-Machine Paradigm?

    Certainly Aristotle did not. He was in many ways a proto-animist. Today we would say that fire and air rise while earth and water fall because of forces acting on them. Aristotle said that fire and water rise because they loved the heavens. He would say that earth and water fell because they loved stability at the center. Such proto-animism was accepted through the Middle Ages. It could have hardly been otherwise, given poetic imagery of the Bible...
    Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
    Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
    Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
    Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
    Let them all praise the LORD'S name; for the LORD commanded and they were created,
    Assigned them duties forever, gave them tasks that will never change.
    Praise the LORD from the earth, you sea monsters and all deep waters;
    You lightning and hail, snow and clouds, storm winds that fulfill his command;
    You mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars;
    You animals wild and tame, you creatures that crawl and fly;
    You kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all who govern on earth;
    Young men and women too, old and young alike.
    Let them all praise the LORD'S name, for his name alone is exalted, majestic above earth and heaven.
    The LORD has lifted high the horn of his people; to the glory of all the faithful, of Israel, the people near to their God. Hallelujah!
    ~ Psalm 148

    Thomas Aquinas described Aristotle's belief as natural desire. Thus fire naturally desired to rise and water to fall.

    The use of clocks during the Middle Ages seems to have been the first real machine of any significance. The early history of the clock is lacking, but it seems that clocks were used in the Twelfth Century. Such clocks were important for monasteries and churches, since prayers were supposed to occur at regular hours.

    It was René Descartes was seems to have inspired the dualistic thinking so common today. He thought of the bodies of animals as complex but reducible machines, thus formulating the mechanistic theory, also known as the "clockwork paradigm." Yet, at the same time, Descartes' dualism assigned mind to the realm of spirit, removed from the world of physics. Immanuel Kant accepted Descartes' dualism, though he made mind purely subjective.

    Thomas Hobbes on the other hand, assigned mind to physics, and sought to explain intellect as a form of sensation. Étienne Bonnot de Condillac developed John Locke's Empiricism ideas into Sensationism, pure and simple, in which all cognition was reduced to sense.

    Alan Turing would seem to be the true author of the Mind-As-Machine Paradigm. His Turing Test described in his 1950 paper "Computing machinery and intelligence" sets forth that claim that machines can be regarded as having minds.
    Did thinkers "from the time of Aristotle to the later work of Wittgenstein" regard mind as "disembodied, abstract, and independent of bodily functioning?"

    With regard to Aristotle, himself, I would answer with a qualified No. As noted before, he was a biologist who dabbled in a variety of other subjects. His book, On the Soul (Perì Psūchês) is, in fact, a book covering the whole subject of biology, precisely from the stated position that all living beings have souls. That's right, according to Aristotle all living beings: plants, animals and men have souls. Plants have vegetative souls; animals have sensitive souls; men have rational souls.

    From there, the plot thickens. Aristotle describes the relation between these souls in a way similar to the relation between geometric figures...
    It is now evident that a single definition can be given of soul only in the same sense as one can be given of figure. For, as in that case there is no figure distinguishable and apart from triangle, &c., so here there is no soul apart from the forms of soul just enumerated. It is true that a highly general definition can be given for figure which will fit all figures without expressing the peculiar nature of any figure. So here in the case of soul and its specific forms. Hence it is absurd in this and similar cases to demand an absolutely general definition which will fail to express the peculiar nature of anything that is, or again, omitting this, to look for separate definitions corresponding to each infima species. The cases of figure and soul are exactly parallel; for the particulars subsumed under the common name in both cases-figures and living beings-constitute a series, each successive term of which potentially contains its predecessor, e.g. the square the triangle, the sensory power the self-nutritive.
    ~ Book II; Chapter 3.

    http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/ ... soul2.html

    Thus the term soul is a sort of genus divided into three sub-genera. The rational soul potentially contains the sensitive soul; the sensitive soul potentially contains the vegetative soul. He defines the genus, soul thus...
    LET the foregoing suffice as our account of the views concerning the soul which have been handed on by our predecessors; let us now dismiss them and make as it were a completely fresh start, endeavouring to give a precise answer to the question, What is soul? i.e. to formulate the most general possible definition of it.

    We are in the habit of recognizing, as one determinate kind of what is, substance, and that in several senses, (a) in the sense of matter or that which in itself is not ‘a this’, and (b) in the sense of form or essence, which is that precisely in virtue of which a thing is called ‘a this’, and thirdly (c) in the sense of that which is compounded of both (a) and (b). Now matter is potentiality, form actuality; of the latter there are two grades related to one another as e.g. knowledge to the exercise of knowledge.

    Among substances are by general consent reckoned bodies and especially natural bodies; for they are the principles of all other bodies. Of natural bodies some have life in them, others not; by life we mean self-nutrition and growth (with its correlative decay). It follows that every natural body which has life in it is a substance in the sense of a composite.

    But since it is also a body of such and such a kind, viz. having life, the body cannot be soul; the body is the subject or matter, not what is attributed to it. Hence the soul must be a substance in the sense of the form of a natural body having life potentially within it. But substance is actuality, and thus soul is the actuality of a body as above characterized. Now the word actuality has two senses corresponding respectively to the possession of knowledge and the actual exercise of knowledge. It is obvious that the soul is actuality in the first sense, viz. that of knowledge as possessed, for both sleeping and waking presuppose the existence of soul, and of these waking corresponds to actual knowing, sleeping to knowledge possessed but not employed, and, in the history of the individual, knowledge comes before its employment or exercise.

    That is why the soul is the first grade of actuality of a natural body having life potentially in it. The body so described is a body which is organized. The parts of plants in spite of their extreme simplicity are ‘organs’; e.g. the leaf serves to shelter the pericarp, the pericarp to shelter the fruit, while the roots of plants are analogous to the mouth of animals, both serving for the absorption of food. If, then, we have to give a general formula applicable to all kinds of soul, we must describe it as the first grade of actuality of a natural organized body. That is why we can wholly dismiss as unnecessary the question whether the soul and the body are one: it is as meaningless as to ask whether the wax and the shape given to it by the stamp are one, or generally the matter of a thing and that of which it is the matter. Unity has many senses (as many as ‘is’ has), but the most proper and fundamental sense of both is the relation of an actuality to that of which it is the actuality. We have now given an answer to the question, What is soul?-an answer which applies to it in its full extent. It is substance in the sense which corresponds to the definitive formula of a thing’s essence. That means that it is ‘the essential whatness’ of a body of the character just assigned. Suppose that what is literally an ‘organ’, like an axe, were a natural body, its ‘essential whatness’, would have been its essence, and so its soul; if this disappeared from it, it would have ceased to be an axe, except in name. As it is, it is just an axe; it wants the character which is required to make its whatness or formulable essence a soul; for that, it would have had to be a natural body of a particular kind, viz. one having in itself the power of setting itself in movement and arresting itself. Next, apply this doctrine in the case of the ‘parts’ of the living body. Suppose that the eye were an animal-sight would have been its soul, for sight is the substance or essence of the eye which corresponds to the formula, the eye being merely the matter of seeing; when seeing is removed the eye is no longer an eye, except in name-it is no more a real eye than the eye of a statue or of a painted figure. We must now extend our consideration from the ‘parts’ to the whole living body; for what the departmental sense is to the bodily part which is its organ, that the whole faculty of sense is to the whole sensitive body as such.

    We must not understand by that which is ‘potentially capable of living’ what has lost the soul it had, but only what still retains it; but seeds and fruits are bodies which possess the qualification. Consequently, while waking is actuality in a sense corresponding to the cutting and the seeing, the soul is actuality in the sense corresponding to the power of sight and the power in the tool; the body corresponds to what exists in potentiality; as the pupil plus the power of sight constitutes the eye, so the soul plus the body constitutes the animal.

    From this it indubitably follows that the soul is inseparable from its body, or at any rate that certain parts of it are (if it has parts) for the actuality of some of them is nothing but the actualities of their bodily parts. Yet some may be separable because they are not the actualities of any body at all. Further, we have no light on the problem whether the soul may not be the actuality of its body in the sense in which the sailor is the actuality of the ship.

    This must suffice as our sketch or outline determination of the nature of soul.
    ~ Book II; Chapter 1.

    http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/ ... soul2.html

    Thus the soul, at least -- though separable from the body -- is hardly independent from it. Rather, it is the soul which constitutes the body as ‘a this.’ It is not an abstraction, but is a power, the first act of the body.

  9. #29
    Guest
    "From this it indubitably follows that the soul is inseparable from its body, or at any rate that certain parts of it are (if it has parts) for the actuality of some of them is nothing but the actualities of their bodily parts. Yet some may be separable because they are not the actualities of any body at all. Further, we have no light on the problem whether the soul may not be the actuality of its body in the sense in which the sailor is the actuality of the ship."

    The question comes up whether the mind is a part that is separable from the body. And if it is separable from the body, how so...

    But first we must consider sensation. Is sense somehow separable from the body? Indeed, what is sensation?

    Aristotle's approach to sensation is quite obscure, at least to one in the habit of thinking literally. For he said that if a man sees an object, say a dog, he becomes the object seen. Thus one would in seeing a dog, become that dog.

    The idea understood literally is absurd. Indeed, if I become a dog how can I ever resume my life as a man? It would seem impossible; it would seem that I would have no choice but to walk around on four legs sniffing the ground, wagging my tail and barking -- unless, of course, I then looked at a man and somehow became him. But what if I looked, instead at a woman? Would the dog that I have become then become a woman? Or if I looked at a tree, would I then stop barking and grow bark, instead?

    The absurdities would seem to have no end. I do not believe Aristotle could have come up with such a conclusion. I believe that he was trying to say that the mind manufactures what we might now call a virtual reality in which the object seen -- the dog -- can go about walking around on four legs sniffing the ground, wagging its tail and barking. This virtual reality seems to contain real objects and we react to them as such, though they are not real, but virtual.

    Thus some aspect of myself becomes the object seen, virtually.

  10. #30
    Guest
    So some aspect of myself may become an object seen, virtually. How does that happen?

    For Plato there was a world of ideal forms in which an ideal dog might ideally walk around on four ideal legs ideally sniffing the ideal ground, wagging its ideal tail and barking, ideally.

    But Aristotle was a biologist. Undoubtedly, he wanted to understand how it might occur, biologically.

    It's been some time since I have read the Iliad. I seem to remember that in ancient Greece, the priests would give the liver of an animal they had sacrificed to a soothsayer. The prophet would then study the lobes to determine what to foretell.

    The Exciting World of the Liver Lobes

    I can imagine Aristotle at his examining table dissecting some animal. I suspect he would wonder what it was that soothsayers saw in the liver. Undoubtedly he never saw a dog walking around in the liver.

    I suppose a liver may, indeed, be a holographic image and had he the eyes of a prophet he may have seen such things. But he was a biologist and he wanted to understand using the tools he had as a biologist.

    In my humble opinion, he did not have the tools required for the task, microscopes, electronic sensors, video recorders, whatever... He could observe and take careful notes. To go beyond that, he had to speculate philosophically.

    One thing he knew was that -- although a man might see a dog walk around on four legs sniffing the ground, wagging its tail and barking -- men do not always see that particular image. Rather a man's virtual reality is always changing. To Aristotle that meant that two things were involved in vision...
    • There must be something in an animal that potentially becomes a virtual image. We might call this something passive vision. It sees nothing, in itself, for if it did, it could not fail to see that thing, always.[/*:m:3bmsmfpk]
    • There must be something in an animal that moves passive vision to have an actual image. We might call this something active vision.[/*:m:3bmsmfpk]

    The eye is clearly associated with active vision. But what is passive vision? It must be something belonging to the body since it is moved by bodily affections.

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