Two Qi Gong Master: Energy work to the extreme!

[Korpo]

Plus, don't the Zen people always say that wanting enlightenment is a great mistake?
Best NN

Yeah, but what the Zen people say is in itself a mystery, so why take it literal?

One book that is very interesting if you want more accounts like that of the magician you mentioned is "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. The anecdotes and stories he relates as examples suggest that a lot of things are possible we don't even think about. Especially when concerned to religious mystics, even in modern times. What makes this account intriguing is the quality of his cited witnesses. Each is either a well-known figure (but maybe the story is not) or one or several witnesses of a story have an academic grade, and quite a lot are doctors of their disciplines. It's really a worthy read.

One thing that seems to be very unclear about Buddhism is the goal beyond "breaking the cycle of reincarnation". So there is a point beyond enlightenment there. Taoists are somewhat clearer about that, as their practises try to conceive and mature "a spiritual embryo" as a host in which the spirit can reside eternally - non-physical immortality.

There seem to be similarities and overlappings of (at least before now) secret teachings relating to such concepts, as the books describing such training were handed down by the Buddhists (Bone Marrow/Brain Cleansing and Muscle/Tendon Changing by the monk Da Mo), but the techniques used therein easily translate to Taoist techniques as well.

The final goal beyond enlightenment in this context as I saw it defined was the re-merge with the Tao, but it is hard to keep track which tradition has what aim and whether the end results obtained by some small circle secret teachings are really the ones longed for by a sect or group as a whole.

I agree, the term "enlightenment" is a tricky one.

[Nnonnth]

I agree very much with what you are saying there!

It certainly is the case that the 'final goal' is different for many, which is the point I was making.

On this:

One thing that seems to be very unclear about Buddhism is the goal beyond "breaking the cycle of reincarnation".

... I think it is very interesting to read people like Iamblichus, the pagan neoplatonist philosopher. For example in 'Theurgy and the Soul', his excellent study of Iamblichus, Gregory Shaw writes:

... Iamblichus specifically faults the view of those who defined catharsis as a withdrawal from matter. He says: "Some give greater value to separation from the body, freedom from material [bonds], liberation from mortality, release from generation [ie. reincarnation] and similar lesser goals of catharsis." The greater goals that followed were theurgic: the unification with the creative cause, the demiurgic activity of joining parts of wholes, and the subsequent reinvestment of parts with the vitality of their universal sources.

... which tends to support what you are saying. Oh yeah those guys knew a thing or two!

In my opinion a big problem exists with any tradition that maintains there is something intrinsically wrong with physical existence. My view, and Bardon's, and Iamblichus's, is that this material plane is still the most important. I feel the Buddhists (anyway zen people, the Tibetans are different) often emphasize indeed those inferior aspects and go for 'head enlightenment' rather than 'whole body enlightenment', as Michael Winn would say.

One might say that Robert Bruce's emphasis one OBE is actually a withdrawal from seeing matter as important but it ain't so! Firstly OBE is a natural phenomenon anyhow. Secondly you go out in order to come back and bring things with you when you do. That these things then revive this earth herself seems to me to be the point - our personal earth, our body, and the earth at large. This BTW is the reason why Robert is not becoming unbalanced from only taking earth energy in energy work - he takes energy from higher during OBE.

Much more I could say! But anyhow, it seems we agree now. Great talkin'!

best NN

[Tigerzen]

Wow, quite a few posts since I last visited this topic...

So have you tried this yet? I have this forum which has many article of folks doing these exercise. Here ya go. http://www.psipog.net/home.html
They have many technique and article you can read and try.

AstralVibe, thanks for sharing. I have not tried it. It appears to have been created through much time and effort though. I can't comment on whether it is a good resource or not having little experience with it myself.

~Tigerzen