Two Qi Gong Master: Energy work to the extreme!

[CFTraveler]

NN wrote:

WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

One of the things I love about Robert is his willingness to ignore past separatisms between paths, yet here people are, blithely flailing at each other as usual, ignoring that most important lesson he is trying to teach and not really understanding the consequences of their pride.

Thank you.
Couldn't have put it better myself.

I have noticed a tendency of some posters to post criticisms about one way or other for no good reason other than just putting something or someone down. There is no good reason for this, except maybe ego gratification, and not the good kind.

[Nnonnth]

There is no good reason for this, except maybe ego gratification, and not the good kind.

Thanks for getting me CFT, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the same way.

Best NN

[Korpo]

Korpo I have to ask: do you project?

No, I got to the stage of inner projection, with astral noise, etc., and never continued beyond. I got heavy leg twitching from projection attempts and NEW energy work could not fix it. I wanted to know more about what went on inside me, understand the background information, and dug into Chinese/Daoist/Buddhist teachings.

Robert's work does many things that qigong does not do, for example raises kundalini which is only one way of building the light body but it's a good one.

Yeah, I've noticed the Kundalini obsession on this site shared by many, many posters and I simply disagree with them, nothing more. I've read the posts here, I read about Kundalini Syndrome, I read about Robert's forceful Kundalini raising, and I am not simply not convinced this is the way to go for me. It is good for some, and entirely wrong for others. Not all practices match all kinds of kharmic makeups.

I feel my strong disposition for Taoist Water school meditation grows from something deep inside me, and the same may be true for you and Kundalini.

Besides, Robert Bruce's MAP brought me into Taoism. His mixture of the Chakras and the Dantians and the Small and Large Circulation Paths is surely unique, but Mantak Chia's work about the Microcosmic Orbit is one of the view references in his bibliography section, so I took this route to know more.

Robert's is also is a way of preparing the energy body specifially for projection. Qigong masters are not about projection although many Taoists do it - that is something different. 'Qigong' and 'Taoism' are not equivalent terms!

Well, I know, tell me. Taoist religious Qigong and Chinese medical Qigong are still the most-used connotations of the term and is perfectly valid to use the term that, especially since it is perfectly clear from my post that I have a strong empathy for Taoism.

Projection has a role in Taoism, but it is usually not done early on, but after many other practices have been trained. They are simply less in a hurry to do so.

I agree that NEW and qigong are not the same! But you must understand that if they are different, there is really no point in even comparing them. A person would have to be the complete master of both in order to understand what each does.

Was I trying to? No. Read my statements. I was saying: No, you can't compare them. Too many subtle and not so subtle differences and many different basic assumptions.

And also, the systems of Bruce and Frantzis are not the only two systems out there!

No, but what I should I write about? Stuff I don't know? I was referring to the original poster, and I was talking from what I've read, what I've tried, and what I've experienced.

WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

One of the things I love about Robert is his willingness to ignore past separatisms between paths, yet here people are, blithely flailing at each other as usual, ignoring that most important lesson he is trying to teach and not really understanding the consequences of their pride.

Grrrr....

Actually you are the one ranting around.

It has yet to show whether Robert's way is correct, and if you can simply sample from different schools of thought what you like best. The Kundalini and Hatha Yoga schools, the Fire and Water Taoists, the Zen, Theravada buddhists, etc., all these schools in their more or less forms have already created enlightened individuals. Enlightened individuals have contributed to its practices, writings and philosophies.

Robert is trying out stuff, sometimes ignoring stuff, and very often relying on its own intuition and experience. That is good. But it has a good chance of failure as well. It is good that he is such a courageous individual, and I enjoy reading his stuff, I see that the MAP practices work for what he tries to do.

Stop flaming me for having formed my own opinion. And stop flaming me for simply putting statements into context and telling what's what. NEW is not what we commonly call Qigong. The NEW energy system is not identical to the TCM one. If I get flamed for stating such basic stuff, maybe your attitude is in need of correction, not so much mine.

[Nnonnth]

I read about Kundalini Syndrome, I read about Robert's forceful Kundalini raising, and I am not simply not convinced this is the way to go for me. It is good for some, and entirely wrong for others. Not all practices match all kinds of kharmic makeups. I feel my strong disposition for Taoist Water school meditation grows from something deep inside me, and the same may be true for you and Kundalini.

Well cool! This is more like it - now you are saying what works for you. Now I do understand why you are talking this way, because you are on a site that talks alot (inevitably) about Robert's work whereas you work in an entirely different manner.

All I am suggesting to you is that in that case it is incumbent upon you to make clear that you are suggesting an alternative route rather than claiming a superior one.

The simple fact is, and I know this wouldn't sit well in your character necessarily, but there are some people who prefer the fact that Robert's NEW system is - well, new! That is, with you the fact that something has been going on a long time is evidence of its desirability, whereas for me it is anything but.

When something is new it is still in development and therefore it is impossible to judge where it leads. It is not a 'safe bet' if one is looking for strong guidance. But on the other hand many people here I think are specifically feeling guided towards the new rather than the old - how could they not be, on a site dedicated to Robert's work? I know I am anyhow.

It is all well and good because people like different things. But are you certain when you were writing about taoist techniques you were not saying a little more than 'I like it because it has a longer history'? It sounded very much to me as if you were claiming superiority by virtue of seniority!

We are living in funny times. All the old traditions are coming out of the woodwork but in addition new things are being discovered. If we are not to throw treasures out of the window I believe we must be open-minded about all paths.

I'll tell you what will surprise you! (i hope!). I never use the NEW system, but I do do some Taoist exercises. And the main method I use for tuning my energy body, clearing blocks and changing character, is actually more like Frantzis' Water method than it is like anything Robert teaches. Except that it isn't a water method...

The funny thing - if I had never practiced NEW I would never have discovered this method, which basically involves using the pre-OBE vibrations to raise the energy. This automatically melts blocks just as in Frantzis' idea. Now I hear that, apparently, some guy name of Waldo Vieira is teaching this method. But although it felt so right to me, I actually did not continue using it for a while because I thought since I invented it and it was just little me, there must be something wrong with it!

It wasn't until I met a spirit guide recently who asked my why I gave up this method when it was perfect for me, that I realized I had been a fool about it. I have also been told that it will raise kundalini - but not by force. So we'll see! But I would never have found it if I had been trying to follow a systematic training in a traditional pattern.

There is going to be a ton more stuff like this going on. It is an age of discovery. I think it is vitally important in a time like this to make certain we don't say we know everything already, just because someone tells us so (Buddha would have agreed!). The paths do not all necessarily lead to the same place. What we see in one path can possibly combine with another, or sometimes there may be incompatibilities. The 'immortality' of the taoists is not necessarily the 'enlightenment' of the buddhists, and neither may correspond to western approaches - or they may all neatly meet up.

I like the idea of this site, not as a place which is starting an untried and possibly incorrect system, but simply as a place which is not part of any old tradition and therefore not bound to any old tradition's viewpoint. BTW all the old traditions, East and West, insist that they have mutual incompatibilities.

But would you have thought working with NEW could make a Frantzis-style melting system? Would you have thought that there were other ways to do a 'complete inward melt' than the one Frantzis gives? I wouldn't, until it happened! That's why I consider it important to keep an open mind.

Would you not say that when you write:

Projection has a role in Taoism, but it is usually not done early on, but after many other practices have been trained. They are simply less in a hurry to do so.

... you are saying everyone here is rushing progress, not just for your personal timing, but in principle? After all with all those 'enlightened people' behind it, the seniority of taoism would tend to imply that, no?

Would you not say that when you write:

It has yet to show whether Robert's way is correct, and if you can simply sample from different schools of thought what you like best. The Kundalini and Hatha Yoga schools, the Fire and Water Taoists, the Zen, Theravada buddhists, etc., all these schools in their more or less forms have already created enlightened individuals

... etc., your remarks are not a little discouraging to the many people on this site following his method? Do they not imply a possible universal incorrectness as opposed to merely a personal preference for something else?

You say you were not trying to compare the two, but it sounded to me like you were. It is not a waste of time to develop something new, as if these old enlightened guys had already discovered everything worth discovering... at least to me. Personally I think what we will see during this incarnation is a huge amount more of new stuff going on, taking influences from many places, and discovering things that have never been discovered before. That's why we have the internet and sites like this.

Robert's work, and this new age of spiritual experimentation, are in their infancy, and this is a site that is devoted to the NEW! ( hur hur). I realize you feel it is a good idea to go with something else, but courageous experimentation is still a good idea and to be applauded in my opinion.

Oh and BTW

His mixture of the Chakras and the Dantians and the Small and Large Circulation Paths is surely unique

Not so! See, for example, Stephen Chang's work. Further, Glenn Morris made the same link. Of course it is a bit unorthodox.

Nice talking with you - I like a man who knows what thinks. I just want to say though that the the barriers between our plane and the others are much less strong than before now and many people are being guided from within rather than just by reading books or having traditional teachers. Not all of them know it yet or are strong in their commitment to themselves, but they need to have open possibility in front of them rather than a list of traditional paths from which to choose.

There's an awful lot of interesting stuff in between these old traditions. From the perspective of a rational 'catalogue of enlightenment techniques', it certainly would make more sense to go with 'something we know works' - but from the perspective of inner inspiration, which is producing the new things and which produced the old, it is another matter.

Sorry to bang on, and sorry if I was testy/flamey.

Best NN

[Korpo]

Well, Nnonnth, now we are getting somewhere...

It's hard to set a tone or style with your posts, and as my posts are often not necessarily along the lines of others posters, it's easy to disqualify them as flaming or wise-assing. This is (mostly?) not so (some wise-assing seems to be unavoidable ).

I'm in an inner struggle - on the one side, I'm curious and impatient, and the other side erring on the conservative side and cautious.

I tried MAP. It started to make me very nervous. Since I lacked sureness about how to tackle possible problems - which Robert specifically warned about! - so I did what I do often when faced with insufficient information - I broadened my base of knowledge.

I looked up on trancework and studied on altered states and (self) hypnosis. I looked up on breathwork and mind taming and therefore studied meditative practices. I looked up on energy work and studied Qi Gong.

I tried to find alternative or additional information. Robert's work lacked in certain aspects the detail I was craving for, so since then I may have studied 3-4 dozens books and tried maybe a dozen techniques to get a feel for what works for me and what not, or what feels good and what seems to hurt me.

So I can understand that people want something new and exciting, maybe something quicker or perhaps different or just something to try around and play with. I'm the kind of person that wants to know consequences, tries to assess risks, tries to play it safe - timid, you could say.

So for me the empiric chain of evidence of a technique having been used 100s of years is impressive. My argument is not, that therefore it has to be superior. But for anyone trying to make progress while at the same time playing it safe it is something to be valued.

From the posts here I'm well aware that many people are very daring, or seem to fear no consequences. I myself question things. Why do I feel good? Originates it from me, is it spiritual, do I delude myself? Is the pain a sign of a problem, or of the healing process, or a stern warning to stop immediately. I try to tackle one bit at a time, look what it changed, and revert to what worked or to the results I can recognise. This maybe make me the most conservative and rigid poster here, but I'm building a base on which I can solidly verify things for me to avoid delusion and harm. The last person I want to fool me is myself.

But how could I judge things else? Here is an overwhelming wealth, a true plethora of stuff people try. And some post say they have found marvelous stuff - which I often cannot verify. Some dig deeply into areas of expertise I don't understand or am not interested in. Some get hurt.

If I can be of assistance I try. I got "bad luck" myself:
* Zen meditation gave me strong nosebleeds.
* Mantak Chia's sexual Qigong is very powerful, but makes me extremely nervous, agitated. It produced quick results, but at the same time posed the risk of severely hurting myself at any time. This has made me rather cautious about his techniques which I adored at first.
* etc.

I had techniques that were claimed to be perfectly safe fail on me. I read on, and found the claims to be dubious and in total ignorance of the different needs of different people. A lot of techniques are considered not safe, but freely "marketed" on this modern "bazaar" of alternative experiences.

This made me revert to this rather conservative "tried and true" and low-risk stance. I'm not trying to spoil anything for anyone, but if someone seems to have a problem I advise caution. I owe that to my conscience. And I try to cleanly spell out things, and I try to dispel myths, where I can.

At the same time I'm trying to take in the fascinating and unique input from this site and its posters. It's the only place I freely discuss about my practise. I think I can contribute. I do not want to flame someone.

Sometimes I think people that spell out a problem get cheered on - continue regardless of cost or risk. I want to spell out possible ways without saying they should not continue. It's my cautious and responsible nature. Hopefully this makes me no spoilsport!

[star]

As far as shocking someone, its happened to me before, long distance. It wasen't pleasant.

[CFTraveler]

Well, I for one an glad you're friends again-
And please remember that we're all here to learn, and whoever has ideas about protection and caution are welcome to post. That's what we're here for- to learn from and help each other when we have the opportunity.

[Nnonnth]

Yeah we are getting somewhere and I quite understand. And also, I think you have been very responsible in the way you've approached all this. It's true not everything is safe, but there are also different degrees of unsafety...

But you and I are not so different as you suppose! I think maybe you are not seeing the slightly bigger picture I'm painting - I'll address that. I'm really enjoying this conversation now.

When you write something like this:

So I can understand that people want something new and exciting, maybe something quicker or perhaps different or just something to try around and play with. I'm the kind of person that wants to know consequences, tries to assess risks, tries to play it safe - timid, you could say.

... it makes me aware that I haven't explained myself too well! I don't think you're exactly timid, but I do think that this climate where there are all these 'masters' who know everything can make one afraid to trust one's inner instincts - which trap I did duly fall into myself, so you're no more timid than I am anyhow!

First of all I want to say - look at what's going on at this time in human history.

The American OBE guru William Buhlman did a survey about projection and got thousands of respondents. Most of these it seems didn't even deliberately try for it, it just happened. Some of them loved it, taught their children and went flying every night with them. Some had an instant samadhi (of the kind that traditionally takes a long time to produce). Many others thought they were possessed, evil, dying, etc. Not to mention the 'abductee' thing which I'm sure is related.

These people alone prove that this time in history is special. Things are possible now for the average person with hardly any training that are normally thought of as quite high achievements. We need people like Robert or Buhlman etc. just to help these people off the ground with some kind of grace, never mind enlightenment.

You might think you are not like those people but just hold that thought!

It has taken alot of time for people to realize anything at all about the unseen world. But now, everyone and his/her garden cat can have spirit guides and OBEs.

What this means to me is that this situation is different from before. That does not invalidate old methods of course! But being more in touch generally, as a race, with our higher selves and our inner guidance makes it significantly more likely that, without outside interference, we will be able to do a good deal by experiment alone.

Now here's a cruncher:

I bet you anything you like, if you got back into the pre-OBE vibratory state and held it, and did that for 15 minutes 3 times a day, within a week or two you would start to melt just as in the water method. Only not quite just as in the water method, because there would be no downward movement, and blocks would come away in the order that they choose, rather than in a predetermined motion.

Yes it's that simple! I can't say for certain yet because I had the fully melted state a couple of years back and then lost it, owing to not realizing you have to keep these things up all the time. But in that state you OBE without any effort whatsoever.

Now I don't know if anyone is teaching precisely this, maybe that Waldo Vieira guy is - but he's new as well. I don't even know if it was possible for this to be done before now, just sitting and well - there you are. But these days there is enough collective energy for people to be very naturally charged up.

Which brings me to your own experiences, because if pure zazen gives you a nosebleed there is masses of energy in there already!

I'm not saying try my method - although I do recommend you learn to talk to your guides if you haven't already because they will assist you in recognizing what's right for you. I am saying that I think it would work. And I was wondering how far you have got with the water method because I tried it & my method worked better - for me!. I do have methods for ground of course, and sometimes you need alot of it now, more than ever.


Well so much for that, but there is another side to what you are saying. You are absolutely correct that there is a bazaar of techniques out there and they're not all that great. The question is how are you going to pick? Obviously you can't literally try them all. If you are in touch with your inner intuition that is the best way to find the right path, because something in you already knows what is right.

Now there are plenty of paths that have brought many to high degrees of perfection - but what you didn't mention that I have noticed in my wanderings is how much they all dislike each other! The zen people dislike the tibetans, both of whom mostly don't like the taoists (in actual practice). The western techniques refuse to look at the eastern and vice vera. Etc.

Even Frantzis, bless him, is guilty of this! He certainly thinks Chia's is the wrong way, like you, but the whole idea of naming his stuff the 'water method' was so he could diss the fire method - these categories don't actually exist in taoism! And the fact is that although Chia's original sexual techniques have big problems (due to the general high energy I think) they can be modified and then they start to work better - see Michael Winn's stuff for instance.

The problem with all this in-fighting is that it makes it harder to trust anybody, and to top that off, it even makes it harder to trust oneself because all these gurus can't be right, and they all know more than you!


In this situation it is impossible to develop anything new, which is why (even though not all of his techniques work for me exactly as he writes them) I prefer Robert's attitude, which is, let's just see what there is going on here. And he has got quite far that way. He has also remained an ordinary bloke because that's all he wants to be, without a big tradition he can't be Grand High Poobah anyhow!

There is alot that is going to come of the work of people like him, and I think it will intersect with other traditions as well, but we must, I think, take advantage of the incredible increase in available energy. For example in OBEs I was doing 2 years ago I found it was possible to do energy work whilst out of body. This is a fantastic technique and the thing is anybody could do it, minimum of fuss.

A whole new set of traditions will spring up because of this time period, which is why I say that it isn't the time to look backward. This is not the same as to say we should be playing superficially, on the contrary! This is a time to get deeply into oneself and what one really feels, because from that extraordinary things can come.

It is not just that people want something quicker, it is that whatever you are doing is going to go quicker whether you want it or not! The game has changed a little. Similarly Robert's work with Negs is important because the new conditions are empowering them also. People are getting hurt by them who before would have been immune.

So again, I don't think that you are conservative exactly. What I think is that you haven't quite got where you want yet, and you are thinking that the techniques that didn't work for you can't be exactly perfect - this is true! But although you may have found what seems a safe way, is it then right to say that no-one else's experiments are safe?

What I am willing to bet is that whatever you do it will end up being fairly intense at the beginning.

The more I work the more I find. Some has been found before, some appears new. It's important to me to keep everyone in the game and playing. So don't be too certain, especially if it's only from reading, about where all this is heading and how and why....

Good luck and God Speed - or Tao Slowness if you prefer!

Best NN

[Korpo]

Now there are plenty of paths that have brought many to high degrees of perfection - but what you didn't mention that I have noticed in my wanderings is how much they all dislike each other! The zen people dislike the tibetans, both of whom mostly don't like the taoists (in actual practice). The western techniques refuse to look at the eastern and vice vera. Etc.

Even Frantzis, bless him, is guilty of this! He certainly thinks Chia's is the wrong way, like you, but the whole idea of naming his stuff the 'water method' was so he could diss the fire method - these categories don't actually exist in taoism! And the fact is that although Chia's original sexual techniques have big problems (due to the general high energy I think) they can be modified and then they start to work better - see Michael Winn's stuff for instance.

The problem with all this in-fighting is that it makes it harder to trust anybody, and to top that off, it even makes it harder to trust oneself because all these gurus can't be right, and they all know more than you!

Just time for a quick comment now, but let me say this:
Boy, did you make laugh! (in a GOOD way!)
I feel like this since long. I noticed all this original gansta/old school/new vibe/fire kids on the block quite for some time.

I simply chose the one that appealed most, and am building on that.

BTW, I strongly abhor "masters" of any kind. I have both a strong tendency to rebel against authorities and a wish to "just get along". This is one of the reasons I am rather glad to live in a time where I can pick a book from a shelf and get into what has been secret for centuries and can figure out my own truth and do comparisons and try stuff.

Buhlman, Monroe, Bruce, Yang, Chia, Frantzis, etc. - they have found their place on my bookshelves. Even if I do Frantzis practices every day, I still cross-read. I'm allow my mind to sample stuff freely, I'm just restrictive in what I practise, it is simply too much and too short time.

You are correct in another way - whatever technique I apply I have pretty soon a painful incident. I have strong blocks, and have to be pretty careful to apply good technique to get them cleared. Maybe I got good Chi flow, and this quickly builds pressure on my blockages, or I have simply pretty strong issues, I don't know.

It would be nice to know why we seem to live in such "interesting times".

[Nnonnth]

Right on! Yeah you and I are similar. I also have to pound away at whatever it is I come up with for months, and have strong blocks too.

As for:

It would be nice to know why we seem to live in such "interesting times".

I think it's something to do with this: http://www.tomkenyon.com/hathors/hathors3.html

But that's a whole nother thread.

Best NN