Two Qi Gong Master: Energy work to the extreme!

[Korpo]

Small side note:

I know Frantzis has at times seems to make comments that are heavily predisposed against the fire school (be that differentiation artifical or not). I know from reading "Relaxing into your Being" that he is not completely against it.

His teacher, which clearly he is rather attached to, taught two disciples as exclusive students in the second half of the 20th century. The other one introduced him to his teacher. Him he taught fire techniques, while Frantzis he taught Water techniques, according to what was most missing in that person's inner makeup.

Furthermore Frantzis freely speaks about the many techniques he has sampled, and what harm ill consideration on his behalf sometimes these have brought. This becomes rather clear from "Opening Energy Gates" where he describes how he used strongly vibrating Chi techniques to break bones, and began to become paranoid and delusional.

In "The Great Stillness" he describes at the point of where this Great Stillness is attained that the practitioner is properly prepared, in body, mind and spirit, to do all the Fire training without risk, the same goes for Inner Alchemy and so on. So his methods do no preclude others, and he gives hints how to combine them with Yoga, and stuff.

He still is a disser. Just not the worst there is!

[Tempestinateapot]

Has it occurred to anyone that you are all correct? It's the experience that's valued. Not the rightness or wrongness of it. No matter how experienced you are in any form of energy work, no matter how much you are in love with that form, it ultimately doesn't matter. Did the Source appear to anybody and say, "This form of energy work is the only one that is sanctioned and has My seal of approval"? See, the Source has this giant stamp made of pure gold and energetically stamps certain practices. Of course, you have to be a master before you can see this stamp. And, you have to have found the magical glasses that allow you to see this stamp. And, when you do that, this big rainbow colored balloon grows out of your a$$ that only the super-duper masters can see. Then, you get invited to the super-duper masters' honorary lunch.

Sorry, that's what these conversations sound like to me. Different strokes for different folks. All experiences are valued. Making yourself a master in one, kind of limits you in experiences. But, if that winds your clock, that's what winds your clock, and you ought to go for it. But, claiming anything is better than any other is just pure ego talking. Nuttin' else. Just puredy, ol' ego. And, I don't mean the egotistical ego. I mean the one that creates the illusion that anything is better than anything else.

[CFTraveler]

*Watches balloons fly away*

[Nnonnth]

Hey Korpo -

Yeah you're right, Frantzis is fairly gentlemanly about the whole thing at least. I haven't actually read 'Opening Energy Gates' and I don't recall having known before about the other student learning fire method.

And Tiatp:

This is what I was saying myself! Eg with my now-infamous-and-much-regretted:

WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

... etc.

The rest of this conversation to me has been about how, when traditions go big, they do kind of go inflexible too as far as including the new and different is concerned. They think they have that stamp you're talking about. That's why Robert is so cool to me, he doesn't really follow anyone.

Best to all, NN

[Korpo]

Well, I try to sample from many traditions, and was actually inspired towards this by Robert Bruce. My starting point was MAP, and then I went exploring.

I find it a sad state that so many movements trying to explore Universal Consciousness and finding our common source and interlink do rival each other so strongly, and - oh, the irony! - isolate themselves from others.

Historically this is understandable - you cannot transfer knowledge over hundreds and thousands of years when everyone is intermixing at will. Still they intermingle, for example in China. But not at all times, and sometimes these exchanges are very far in the past.

In some respects its like picking your favorite flavour, but Goleman wrote it in its comparative book the "The Meditative Mind" that while the goal of many meditative traditions are remarkably similar, and many techniques as well, some develop skills others don't. His example was meditative dancing, which improved motoric skills in practitioners strongly, while sitting meditators did not improve in that respect.

Nnonnth, you have (re-)inspired me to put MAP and OBE practise back on my agenda, but I do not know exactly when. Since my energy work is currently paying off very well, with unblocking of more and more channels I will look into how I can reconcile that with NEW and the MAP program.

[Nnonnth]

Right on!

Nnonnth, you have (re-)inspired me to put MAP and OBE practise back on my agenda, but I do not know exactly when. Since my energy work is currently paying off very well, with unblocking of more and more channels I will look into how I can reconcile that with NEW and the MAP program.

It's funny you should mention this. I think we are all now desperately waiting for Robert's next book on energy work (no pressure Mr Bruce!). I am suddenly waiting for it more than ever since I read this, in the sticky he wrote at the top of the kundalini page here in these forums:

I may have a way to safely train people using something new. This is
experimental but it may work. Kundalini can be raised in the pre OBE
vibrational state. I've done this and its quite easy. If one does not need
to raise kundalini fully first, it may be possible to train people to
cleanse and condition the kundalini snake pathway with a lower level of
energy than what normally occurs during the main event.

Now this is precisely and to the letter what I've been trying to do. And as I say it can be used to get rid of block and all sorts of things, very similiar to Water Method.

And what's more, I bet some puzzled people out there would love to know that this is possible, just like me, having discovered it and given it up because no book talks about it. That's why we all need to keep talking this way, it's what this age of Aquarius is all about, Aquarius ruled by Uranus. Uranus thinking is what gave us the internet. (Ignore that bit if you don't like it!)

What this means I think is by no means give up on what you're doing esp. if you have got the water method working. Suddenly you see you are not just trying to work on your energy, you are performing valuable work in trying to match up techniques that could be of great use to thousands of people and to the earth in general.

I know from experience that if I get this completely melted clarity I would be able to slip out of my body with almost no vibrations or difficulty of any kind. And since the complete melt is the idea of the water method this would be bound to be the result following that too. SO your OBE skills if desired will increase from water method. As you say yoga and more conscious/'fire method' taoist alchemy can follow a complete melt with nothing standing in their way - likewise, so can a perfect OBE technique and you would not have any of the problems normally associated with a 1st-time OBE. Like Robert I can't prove any of this yet but I strongly suspect it.

The only thing that I think is.... well, interesting here is the watery aspect of the water method, and here I have to clarify something I mentioned before. I said there was nothing 'watery' about this method, what I meant was that it is nonsense to call anything a water method alchemically speaking if it involves melting (kidey-)ice, since the melting requires fire. It is precisely the mind's fire that melts the water in this method.

However, it now occurs to me that there is something else that does in fact make it a water method, and that is the downward direction. This is indeed water, flowing down=water just as strong upward=fire (but not necessarily strong formal mental control as Frantzis is implying with the name of the method).

I would be very interested in how imposing a definite down direction on the melting (which I don't do) would impact it. Obviously more grounded emotions, but OBE requires fire+air, will it come naturally or will something else be required? The way I am doing it the final result is centre, no direction at all. Akasha if you like.

Korpo you see how from just one little exchange already things are linking up that otherwise wouldn't be seen! Robert after all doesn't do Frantzis' method at all. Let's keep in touch and see where we get from all this, it will snowball if we let it. Like I say I am convinced this is what this age of humanity is all about, and now I believe it all the more.

best NN

[Tempestinateapot]

I think it's great to share practices and what's worked for you, people you've read about, or people you know. But, you're still missing the point. If there was only one way to make certain things occur, then why wouldn't everybody being doing that one thing? Instead, only small groups practice certain methods. Did it ever occur to you (universal you) that certain things didn't happen with some methods because of the limited beliefs of those using it?

Example...I had a 3 and a half hour samadhi experience with nothing more than an intention to OBE and used the rope method. My first conscious OBE happened merely with lying down and saying to myself, "I can leave my body". Boom, 2 seconds later I'm vibrating like a jackhammer, a train is running through my ears, and lift off. So, because it worked for me, I could start a whole movement and be a guru. My method, which has the seal of approval, from Source, no less, to samadhi is to imagine climbing a rope. Of course, I'm being sarcastic, but someone who read this could very well replicate my experience, while others would say, "nope, didn't work for me...now this other method over here....it's the real one".

If something is working for you, personally, I'd stay with it, and possibly try other methods. If nothing is working, try lots of methods. Share what you've experienced, but don't be fooled by people who say you can only have certain experiences by doing something one way. There may be a method that works better for a lot more people, but it's not a given it's going to work for everyone.

[Nnonnth]

I think it's great to share practices and what's worked for you, people you've read about, or people you know. But, you're still missing the point.

With due respect I think you're the one who is missing the point. This is not a conversation at all about what the 'one best way' is and no-one here is trying to find out what is the 'true way' as far as I know.

When you say this:

If something is working for you, personally, I'd stay with it, and possibly try other methods. If nothing is working, try lots of methods. Share what you've experienced, but don't be fooled by people who say you can only have certain experiences by doing something one way. There may be a method that works better for a lot more people, but it's not a given it's going to work for everyone.

You are re-iterating something that has already been said by both Korpo and myself!

As it happens both Korpo and I have had similar experiences with published methods but have now gone two different ways towards an attempt to resolving those difficulties - this is interesting and worth reporting on. I like doing it... erm... ok?

The rest of this conversation, as I said before, is about how large organizations start to believe there is one true way, and in the process stifle other possibilities. It is a very common occurrence. This is just about sharing information, I like to know these things. As it happens alot of people had the experience you had with the rope technique - doesn't it interest you that this is the case?

Nobody is saying that this or that is the real technique. What I am discussing quite happily with Korpo is what happens as a result of certain techniques and what the possible links between them are. This is how people can get further from where they are, I believe - by talking about what they are doing! Isn't that the whole point of this board?

I already agree with everything you say, and have said so several times already, so I don't understand why you say I don't get the point! You say:

If there was only one way to make certain things occur, then why wouldn't everybody being doing that one thing?

... which is fair enough!

But I don't see the relevance of it because not ever have I said that there is only one way to make anything occur! So why keep putting forth an argument that no-one is disagreeing with?

Could you somehow explain differently perhaps?

Best NN

[Tempestinateapot]

I'm not so much criticizing what the two of you are talking about as I am trying to make it clear to others who might be reading that there are a lot of roads to the same destination. I don't remember who said it, or which post it was in, but there was something about one technique that allowed one to go further than another. That was what prompted me to post. It helps sometimes to remember that while the conversation may appear to be just two people, there are sometimes a lot more who are reading it. So, it's not really just a conversation between the two of you.

No, I've never heard anyone ever say they reached samadhi from the OBE method of rope climbing. But, then I'm not aware of a lot of things. Carry on.

[star]

I really think Vase Breathing is a good one. The problem is I haven't found really good instructions online for it. The best description has been in my book.

Most others I saw over complicated things.