Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies.

[wstein]

That's the thing, isn't it? Only those who get it will get it, and those who don't or can't won't get it. To me, it seems mostly pointless to even talk about it at all, and to me it seems potentially irresponsible (for me; I'm only speaking for and of my own experience), because of the high potential for accidentally or unintentionally misleading. And, of course, there's nothing that can be done to "gain" or "accelerate" or otherwise "acquire" this kind of awakening, anyway, so, again, what's the point in talking about it at all?

Maybe I'm missing something, maybe there is some benefit to be gained by this kind of "I've been there, I am there, I'll try to describe it to you", but the more I look at it, the more it seems like a waste of time.

There ARE ways to help others 'get it'. What is probably a waste of time is to 'explain it' to others. The only exception I can see is if both do already 'get it' explaining (more defining) will help clarify terminology for further discussion.

In my experience, helping others to learn these sorts of spiritual concepts is not done through education. It is done by putting them in the optimal situation so that have the greatest chance of learning on their own. I have had a fair degree of success with this in one-on-one 'sessions'. To a far lesser extent, induced experience can help in learning by making clear what the goal is (i.e. helping them learn inner silence by inducing inner silence in them long enough for them to experience it).

[ButterflyWoman]

Right. That's interesting. I can imagine that one-on-one would be more conducive to this sort of thing. There's a kind of communication that can happen in that situation, a non-verbal communication.

Hence the traditional guru/teacher/rabbi/whatever and student/disciple/novice/whatever kind of arrangement.

But, yes, the more I consider it, the more I think talking about it is just... well, it's mostly something to do. How helpful it is... Still have my doubts.

[Tutor]

Right. That's interesting. I can imagine that one-on-one would be more conducive to this sort of thing. There's a kind of communication that can happen in that situation, a non-verbal communication.

Hence the traditional guru/teacher/rabbi/whatever and student/disciple/novice/whatever kind of arrangement.

But, yes, the more I consider it, the more I think talking about it is just... well, it's mostly something to do. How helpful it is... Still have my doubts.

BW, exactly.

like Zen and the Motorcycle Mechanic. like Johnny Cash's song about the ole country boy shade tree mechanic who can't touch a pricy luxury car, so he builds his from the various parts of all makes and models of luxury car. some motorcycle enthusiastes make a Rat Bike composed of whatever parts they have in there shop/garage. beg, borrow and steal

ya have to take what ya got and make your own dang gum gravy and biscuits, and do this NOW.

the ole addage, "when the pupil is ready the teacher will come" has to do with NOW, and is everybit about what is within any one that is always present to come. beyond that, whatever is required externally will subsequently reveal itself, be this a person who brings bad/good lessons, be it any book that would timely confirm what within first has in thought conclusively readied for the externality's secondary confirmation.

as this proceeds, one day at a time, the within and without become as a dance of two partners courting. this courtship eventually arrives at being oned. yet, it remains as if two placements, but this we understand already in the example of marriage, husband and wife, they are one, yet they operably remain as two. two feet, two hands, two hemispheres of the brain...etc. but the body is One.

if ya lead out with the left foot, the right foot is sure to follow.

and BW, you are right to doubt, for doubt and scepticism are handy dandy tools when constructing a rat bike in ye ole garage.

I prayed on this last night before sleeping, got up before dawn and was led to Matthew 24:44-end of 24. we mustn't forget, or become complacently bored, that we construct such as a rat bike and never take it out to ride it, where others see it and question, "what the hell ya have got there?"

ten persons could bring ten rat bikes together, and neither bike is the same, they are as unique as is either person-age. however, alll ten have followed through the same operable mechanics toward an operable bike.

way back in the day, anyone popping up out of the throngs with a rat bike, would have been approached with the demand, "show me your V'rat Rupa!". one would have imagined that the visible apparent rat bike would have been show enough. but, such are the ginormous egos, that upunder such a canopy we find ourselves...even...NOW.

however, well...as the story goes, Rip van Winkle done woke up, he being a characterisation of fulness which within are we all. the proof? well...listen...turn your radio on... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSuPET8iNAg

warning..explicit lyrics, POWER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBMv-fUmOEU

also explicit, Not Afraid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlfh2FuhntM

but detachedly listen to the lyrics, see to read em. cause them be some rat bikes cruisin up the down cru-sin road.

point being, one is given the stock model, takes it to the limit, the limits blow it into parts, unwholey parts that strap ya, and all ya can do is take those unwholey parts, under God's shade tree, piece em together outside the man-set limits/infringements of copyrights and patents, being true to the ME that would of a rat bike BE, to stand as Brothers in the Wind. might get your hat blowed off your head, but who really needs a hat when the good head is enough. God is good; God doesn't call the qualified, God qualifies the called.

the msytic with his/her humbled knees in the gospels/acts, the epistles running upward thru, over the top of [Jude] the head the cloud of unknowing, but the sun known always and in all ways beyond such a storm. Rev. 22 beaming cleanly thru and clearingly thru from Mat. 1. letting the knees reflect the true powerless nature...humbled

RadioHead, Reckoner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVpTPUIzHYo

the latter rains, in the rain bow to the former rainbow reveal

on another note, this offering [link below], an admix of thoughts on the subject of Solar Angel. I particularly like the final paragraph of the Conclusion. though, i am not a patron to any of the thoughts gathered, yet the gathering of such is commendable.

Solar Angel: http://www.uriel.com/knowledge/artic...ar%20Angel.pdf

[Tutor]

"In my experience, helping others to learn these sorts of spiritual concepts is not done through education. It is done by putting them in the optimal situation so that have the greatest chance of learning on their own. I have had a fair degree of success with this in one-on-one 'sessions'. To a far lesser extent, induced experience can help in learning by making clear what the goal is (i.e. helping them learn inner silence by inducing inner silence in them long enough for them to experience it)." wstein


wstein,

I absolutely agree!

dunno about getting every one on the same sheet of music/terminology; sound's impossible. but as your signature dis-spells (Nothing is Impossible).

the kernel of truth in Every-thing is that it is No-thing @ All. Looks to me like agreement from All is the likelyest venture toward possiblity, all in all.

in any event, thanks to CFT for kicking this thread afire, after the coals lay dormant for a year.

[MysterSynIcysm]

I was thinking about something, though it's probably about nothing... What if nothing were really something? Now that really would be SOMETHING! Although it's probably nothing at all... BUT! surely ALL must include the nothing, cos if nothing exists, and it MUST!.. It's kinda SUSS!..
Cos we KNOW nothing, we KNOW ABOUT NOTHING, or maybe JUST... Next to nothing. Maybe we could place the something next to the nothing...
Could we? Should we? And would that be JUST? Now that would be something, although it amounts to next to nothing. A round about way to talk about something, where the something is about nothing and the nothing about something. For after all, there is NOTHING to stop us from making the something out of the nothing. YES! I believe I am JUST!.. in just MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING! I imagine that nothing is really something, though I know it's nothing at all. Perhaps I'm onto something, or rather I'm onto nothing, trying to make nothing into something in the belief that THAT REALLY WOULD BE SOMETHING! even if nothing at all. I'd give my all to make something out of nothing, and after all, there is nothing, and ONLY NOTHING, and nothing can't stop us cos it's only nothing after all.

Who are we to make something out of nothing?
I guess it's a matter (If matter matters at all) of giving it our ALL!

It's ALL or NOTHING! or NOTHING at ALL! (The fundamental dichotomy that isn't a dichotomy at all)
All for one and one for all, we are all only nothing after all.
Or...
One for all and all for one, we are all and nothing for they are one.

(and sorry for bringing matter into the matter, as if it even could matter to matter.
Hmm.. I wonder if matter does mind. If matter even has a mind... But surely that's another story.
Or maybe not, cos in a related matter, maybe even the heart of the matter, maybe even the heart of matter
is a mind. Hmm.. mind over matter.
Well it's probly not gonna matter so long as you don't mind..)

...just sayin'

[IA56]

I was thinking about something, though it's probably about nothing... What if nothing were really something? Now that really would be SOMETHING! Although it's probably nothing at all... BUT! surely ALL must include the nothing, cos if nothing exists, and it MUST!.. It's kinda SUSS!..
Cos we KNOW nothing, we KNOW ABOUT NOTHING, or maybe JUST... Next to nothing. Maybe we could place the something next to the nothing...
Could we? Should we? And would that be JUST? Now that would be something, although it amounts to next to nothing. A round about way to talk about something, where the something is about nothing and the nothing about something. For after all, there is NOTHING to stop us from making the something out of the nothing. YES! I believe I am JUST!.. in just MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING! I imagine that nothing is really something, though I know it's nothing at all. Perhaps I'm onto something, or rather I'm onto nothing, trying to make nothing into something in the belief that THAT REALLY WOULD BE SOMETHING! even if nothing at all. I give my all to making something out of nothing. For after all, there is nothing, and ONLY NOTHING, and nothing can't stop us cos it's only nothing after all.
Who are we to make something out of nothing?
I guess it's a MATTER (If matter matters at all) of giving it our ALL!

It's ALL or NOTHING! or NOTHING at ALL! (The fundamental dichotomy that isn't a dichotomy at all)

All for one and one for all, we are only nothing after all.
(and sorry for bringing matter into the matter, as if it matters to matter at all)

...just sayin'

If this is true and you are not just playing around....than I must congrat you!!
Lucky you

Love
ia

[MysterSynIcysm]

Nah, something tells me it's no joke.
Some might even say I take nothing too seriously!

If you've mind enough to mind, then matter starts to matter.
It would seem you gotta mind, if you want it to matter.
And I'm sure you got a mind, as the difference between us wouldn't matter,
As a matter of fact, in this respect, You'd come to respect we're like
the rest.
And when the nothingness of a rested mind arrests feelings of unrest, it's probly cos something's starting to matter!

Just try to keep in mind,
That nothing really matters!

NothingSomething

[IA56]

Nah, something tells me it's no joke.
Some might even say I take nothing too seriously!

If you've mind enough to mind, then matter starts to matter.
It would seem you gotta mind, if you want it to matter.
And I'm sure you got a mind, as the difference between us wouldn't matter,
As a matter of fact, in this respect, You'd come to respect we're like
the rest.
And when nothingness of rested minds arrest feelings of unrest, it's probly cos something's starting to matter!

Just try to keep in mind,
That nothing really matters!

NothingSomething

Yeah, I know...thank you!!

Love
ia