Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies.

[sublimezg]

Might I point out that contradiction is also a made up portion of the illusion. Contradiction cannot exist.

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

~Walt Whitman

Contradiction is no more than a belief to be held.

By the way, I don't believe Tempest is enlightened. She is however on a non stop train wreck of a ride that will either kill her or fling her over the fence she's now teetering on. I say march on!

[Tempestinateapot]

Thank you, oh Keeper of All Knowledge.

Are you? Enlightened, I mean.

[sash]

we are all here to experience but we are not here for the same experiences.

That seems to me as one of the key issues at the heart of the whole subject.

Reaching a conclusion such as we are all and therefore the aim is to just experience seems a bit 'anticlimactic' as said before I think. It's almost as though 'now what?'

In removing the layers of the ego the experience becomes deeper on an individual and cosmic level, depending on how many layers a person has removed. It's always going to be just the 'all' but the depth to which that really rings true depends on the state of the ego and the extent of the ongoing projection of the "I".

It is also not always the same flavour of experience, for example, as jman said, sometimes it's a matter of creating and not just experiencing. But yet that creation process is still a result of experiencing yourself more deeply and allowing the creative force to be present.

Feeling or theorizing something about enlightenment cannot be enlightenment, nor can anything that can ever be written. It just 'is'. However that isness is One and being 'Together/One' is Love in my view, and separateness is the opposing force of Love. That is how I get from One to Love/Truth anyway.

[sublimezg]

Thank you, oh Keeper of All Knowledge.

Are you? Enlightened, I mean.

No, I just recognize you're in almost the exact location I am.

I am

o snap!

[Tempestinateapot]

Feeling or theorizing something about enlightenment cannot be enlightenment, nor can anything that can ever be written. It just 'is'.

Exactly. But, the process of killing the ego can be somewhat explained, maybe not the process itself, but the emotions it brings up. As sublimy said in so many words, the process is not the finish line.

[wstein]

Jman said:

You can't have enlightenment about an illusion of separateness AND be despondent about it.

Yes, you can. It is the final fight of the ego for it's very existence. I haven't finished stomping it down. Gettin' close, but not completely there.

All this stuff about bliss....maybe later. I'm in the middle of a war, here!

Tell them, wstein!

Exactly! I sent a PM to this effect last night. Although enlightenment is nearly instantaneous, it takes a while to trickle down to all parts of ourselves.

For those following the Osho part of this, IMHO this is where he got stuck. He was enlightened but buried rather than dealt with his ego. Eventually the ego got free and caused the controversy.

[CFTraveler]

Tempest: Weirdly, that thing I printed in the Love thread is called "The Pearl of Great Price, believe it or not."
Anyway, you wrote:

Exactly. But, the true enlightenment part cannot be attained without the realization that the Source, Itself, is not a Being of love. As Jman said, if I'm interpreting him right, is that the Source may be evolving towards love, but that's not what It Is. The may be part is only a guess. It's not something that you can know. The reality is that we don't know. We can only make educated guesses.

You are grieving for the loss of what your were attached with.. the idea that what we call(believe) Love is what God is. It's a hard thing to give up, but it's ok to grieve. You are not with anyone here anyway, yet you're with God. The 'being' is the hard part, we're used to (and I sometimes deny this to myself) think of 'being' as ultimate, and all this goes away. But realize this: Even though 'being' is not real, as long as you perceive you're here, it's actual. So love, although not real, is the only real thing here. Even if it's not real at all. If you think of the Buddha (and I know you're not supposed to, if you're enlightened, and I'm not, so I allow myself to) think of all these enlightened beings, who after losing the attachment to the good as well as the bad- were embraced in bliss. Perhaps because they knew that it existed while they thought it did. I know this doesn't make sense now, I'm not sure if I expressed it as I thought it. .

OK... I may be unenlightened but i can recognise when you're going in circles. You can't have enlightenment about 'an illusion of separateness' AND be despondent about it. If the separateness is an illusion then the bit that is feeling down is the bit that is inside the illusion - the rest of 'You' is outside the illusion & knows it is connected.

If your epiphany is bringing you down, maybe it isn't quite right - you seem to still be reacting as the old being, the one inside the life of separateness.

The fact remains, it is only an apparency that everyone else is an illusion - as far as we are concerned, WE EXIST! It is the ALL that may or may not be alone - we, All of We, are maintaining our existence & learning & experiencing in a common framework - there may be differences around the edges, but most of us exist within a central core of Reality.

You are not alone Not if you're still defining 'You' as being within this framework 0- and it seems like you are. If your epiphany was complete, it should take you beyond the things of this life - you might stay around but your basis of operations would 'graduate' to the new paradigm - & that appears not to be the case.

Not sure if it is clear what I'm saying here, but it's basically that if your realisation was really the ultimate in enlightenment, you should be now working from your new reality - & therefore you wouldn't be feeling the lack now of Love etc. If you're feeling the lack, you haven't moved beyond it & therefore the realisation is either only partial or is only a step towards the next bit.

This may or may not be true, but she got a glimpse, and is realizing that something that was very important to her just went away. Maybe not, but it is where she is at now.

[Tempestinateapot]

You are witnessing the annihilation of an ego. Not a pretty picture. But, eventually necessary for everyone. The bliss stuff has no part in this. It can't. If it does, it's just ego rearing it's head again. The ego wants bliss. It may be a side effect later, but it's not the real deal in this portion of the show.

Miss "co-dependent" is pretty astute.

[hermes]

You are witnessing the annihilation of an ego. Not a pretty picture. But, eventually necessary for everyone.

Is it really? I'm not so sure.

To dissolve into the oneness completely, is to return the gift of your creation.

If we are to destroy our ego, our sense of self, free will, the ability to reason, to think, to feel, to learn, and to grow... If we are to simply be in a state of oneness with the universe and The Source... revert back to where we began... how would this effect our actions as spiritual beings (forget the fact we would sit around drooling over ourselves all day)?

Most people either underestimate their value and place in the universe, or they try to let everyone else know how special they are. In either case, their hearts are wounded and they fall short of their potential.

Enlightenment is nothing more than filling yourself with the Light. Enlightenment is nothing less than filling yourself with the Light. And I'm not talking about a 60 watt'er either.

If we destroy our egos, our selves, how can we be filled with the Light? Enlightenment seems to require a vessel to fill.

Connecting to Source does not necessarily require the destruction of our ego. Different traditions believe different things. Some believe that dissolving ourselves and our desires, releasing lifetimes of karma, and meditation on nothingness is the path. Some say that refining, purifying, and aligning ourselves with the divine is the path. And some say realizing there is no path is the path. They are all right. The question is, the path to where, and where is it you wish to travel, and what is it you wish to do? We all need to find out for ourselves our own paths. If that path is to dissolve into oneness, so be it. If it lies somewhere else, so be it. There is no wrong or right absolute path to take. There is only what gets you closer to your potential, and what takes you farther away from it.

If you reach a point where you think you've maxed out, hit the top, melded with all that is, and achieved the Ultimate Sublime and Complete Union with the Source of All That Is, Was, and Will Be, then you most likely have not. It is an endless path, go further and go deeper. If you feel a lack of love, then that indicates something you need to change. For all these paths and philosophies over the eons all describe 'The Source' in a very similar fasion. But there are many places beneath that source where absence of emotion, passion, love, hope, peace, and many other things are devoid in different manners.

Don't stop climbing. Never stop climbing. (Sounds like a ROPE technique, good philosophy)

[Tempestinateapot]

You don't even understand what I'm going through, and yet you feel that you can judge it? Everything that you said was an opinion, a judgement. It's surrounded with pretty words, but it's a judgement none the less. I don't really care, but it seemed obvious to point it out. And, it's also obvious that when I say that, I am also judging. The difference is, that I know what I'm doing.

Not every path leads back to the Source. Some just go in circles. Most just go in circles. That's what incarnating is all about. I'm talking about not incarnating. As long as you are in love with what you are doing or believe, you are asleep. And, you will continue incarnating. If that's what winds your clock, do it. But, don't mistake that that is being awake. There is only one path to being awake. All the other paths are still living the dream. Pretty dreams, nice dreams, but dreams. And, eventually, everyone will walk this lonely path. Without all the bells and whistles and pretty words that only obscure the truth.

I'm not here to argue. I'm am here to process. If it turns you off, don't look. If I see a falacy in something someone says, I will point it out. Not for the sake of arguing, but for the sake of my process. Seeing other's arguments just clarifies what I know is happening.