Common Remembering dreams?

[CFTraveler]

I think both of you are using different models of consciousness to describe what happens when you sleep and what determines lucidity.
Korpo, you're describing a model that sees consciousness as a matter of degrees, while I think Alaskans is using the new brain/old brain model, which I happen to use to describe these experiences.
In the model Freud & Jung used (the old brain/new brain model) consciousness is considered to be the part of your mind that judges (compares), plans, and makes decisions on what it decide based on comparing past memories with perceptual input. It also uses verbal language; What Freud & Jung considered the 'rational' mind. The subconscious, or unconscious (depending on how much access you have) is the part of your mind that observes & stores. It reacts using emotion only, so it's power of judgement isn't 'rational', but 'reactive'. It is the part of the mind that's 'on', and pretty much accepts everything as real. Memories, emotions and symbolism are it's modes of operation. In this model, the degree of lucidity depends on how much of the conscious mind is 'on' while dreaming.

[Korpo]

But if you follow Moen's explanations in his elaboration on this state-specific model, he has an interesting twist on it: There's a certain amount of interpreting needed to retain recall, but the experiencing part of the mind is actually receiving and filtering the experience. He trained a minimal amount of interpretation to let the experience flow seamlessly and still get downloaded.

His observation is that as soon the interpretation fully stops, you click out, and as soon you have to much interpretation, you don't actually experience anything. Mix this together, and none of the parts is superior, but only together an experience, and indeed a lucid one, is the result.

I think Freund & Jung were also having some cultural bias towards "being rational" as being something absolutely positive. For something "reactive" the subconscious seems to be incredibly powerful, and also have access to wisdom that people often never access in their waking life - see dream wisdom.

Thanks for pointing out the different models.

Oliver

[CFTraveler]

But if you follow Moen's explanations in his elaboration on this state-specific model, he has an interesting twist on it: There's a certain amount of interpreting needed to retain recall, but the experiencing part of the mind is actually receiving and filtering the experience.

I'm with you right until there and I agree-

He trained a minimal amount of interpretation to let the experience flow seamlessly and still get downloaded.

This is where I stopped understanding- do you mean that he thinks (or postulates, or theorizes, or whatever) that there has to be interpretation for recall? Or that the act of recalling something is done by the conscious 'rational' mind? Or something altogether different?

His observation is that as soon the interpretation fully stops, you click out, and as soon you have to much interpretation, you don't actually experience anything.

This I'm not sure I agree with- do you mean overanalyzing something you're perceiving it makes you drift off into a fantasy? Maybe I'm not understanding it.

Mix this together, and none of the parts is superior, but only together an experience, and indeed a lucid one, is the result.

I never said anything was superior- IMO as a woman the word 'rational' is actually rather limited, because it means you can only do one thing at a time- serially. But it's how the 'waking' mind (aka 'conscious' mind) is described by those esteemed psychologists.

I think Freund & Jung were also having some cultural bias towards "being rational" as being something absolutely positive.

Actually Freud more than Jung, as he considered the male to be 'rational', conscious and superior, while the female was 'emotional', subconscious, and 'all over the place'. (Remember that the root word of 'hysteria' is 'hyster'=uterus. So yes, there was some bias.

For something "reactive" the subconscious seems to be incredibly powerful, and also have access to wisdom that people often never access in their waking life - see dream wisdom.

Which is probably the main reason why Jung and Freud had their falling out- Jung insisted that dream interpretation was the way to access and decode the most powerful part of the mind, the feminine subconscious, while Freud made everything to be about sex.
So we're not disagreeing, I'm just pointing out the model of the mind that gave birth to all this psychological mumbo-jumbo.

Thanks for pointing out the different models.

Oliver

Just trying to promote comprehension in a confusing world.

[JoSac]

I;d agree on what R.B. said about shadow memory.

Everyone dreams, some just don't remember them. When they can't be remembered they are right on the tip of your brain when you wake up. Try to think different thoughts, and one might set off a trigger and then the whole dream flashs back in your memory. Eventually you become good at this and remember all of them without having to try and recall them.

JS

[Korpo]

CF,

I think Moen actually found a very good working model for download and recall.

When the monkey mind is active, the experiences stop and the interpreting mind keeps on going on making interpretations: "I just saw a cat - A cat in the astral? Weird! - My sister had a cat when I was a kid. - She still owes me 5 bucks. - With the 5 bucks I could go out and buy me --- Wait a minute! I just saw a cat!!!"

So he delved into this and tried to relax this interpreting mind out of the equation. What he found was that when he got really good at it, first experiences came in much better, but then he only experienced clickouts. Instead of experiences he just got a fast forward in time to after such an experience.

He then found that experiencing mind and interpreting mind serve both a function - the associations made by the interpreting mind link stuff into our memory by linking it to other things in our memory. The problem is this kind of mind will just go on and on making associations and take awareness of the experience and prevent the experience of the psychic event. When he completely switched away from the interpreter, there was no experience, though. It did not "download" (in Robert's terms).

So he trained allowing a minimal amount of interpretation to actually download the experiences, reducing that amount further and further until the experience got fluid and continuous and fully downloaded. I think Moen really is on the right track here for an effective method of recall.

Oliver

[dynamicdreamer]

I always remember dreams when I wake up but unless I purposefully think about the dream I had when I wake up I won't normally remember it later. Unless of course, it's a really vivid dream. What I dream about differs. Sometimes I dream about life and sometimes it's something I haven't even thought about in forever or just something weird.