Robert Bruce's model ... Phasing model

[question]

I was just wondering how Robert's model compares and contracts with the phasing model (Monroe, Moen, "Frank"...).

Robert states there are 7 planes of conciousness: Physical, Astral, Mental, Buddhic, Atmic, Anupadaka, Adi.

The phasing model uses those funky numbers, F0-F27(and higher..), or FoC1-FoC4.

?#1. I believe the modern phasing model states that the "Astral" is actually our subconcious mind. So projecting into the astral you don't really meet other spirits, blah blah, but they are actually your own subconcious manifestations. How does Robert and other experienced ones feel about this?

?#2. According to the expert phasers, directly above or higher than the Astral is a place where "others" really do reside. "The park", etc. I get confused here because RB states above the astral is the Mental realms. Frank describes FoC4 as a state of seemingly no tangibility; it sounds a lot like the "Mental" plane to me. Is this correct in saying FoC4 is what RB model calls the "Mental" plane? But where would F27 "The park" be on Robert's model? Is F27 actually what RB calls the astral? But in his book I read that his child and others were residing higher than even the mental and buddhic planes.

Basically, I'm confused. When a whole bunch of experienced experts tell their experience and they contradict, ...I don't know how to describe the emotion felt. A little confusion melded with sadness and lack of motivation, with a dash of despair, skepticism, ...

I'd like to hear from you all, then I have more for discussion.

[Apex]

A lot of that is discussed here:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... ht=phasing

[question]

Thanks for that link, though actually I've already read it. While it was an interesting thread, it wasn't what I was looking for really. I just skimmed it again to be sure.

I'm looking for all the experienced people here to share their perspective on if the astral is really "the subconcious mind" or if it's really an "external" area of conciousness or whatever, as stated in ?#1; and how people think the models of plane/conciousness line up and who is where and what, based on their own experience, perspective, and perception, as stated in ?#2.

[question]

Well it's been a week! Surely people could share their experience?

[sash]

I'm not that experienced in this area so this is purely my opinion.
But I believe that the astral is the internal world, and each projection is a divisioned awareness of the collective unconsciousness combined with the subjective elements of both the individual and collective subconsciousness.
The reason I posted this opinion is that I'm not sure if anyone knows the true answer.

Also, I do not think that consciousness can be "external", by its very nature as being consciousness.


Warm Regards,
Sasha

Well it's been a week! Surely people could share their experience?

I didn't bother with Franks Model as from what little I have seen it's a direct copy of Monroes Model, but by definition of astral, "the Park," would be astral, it is a place where consciousness has made a sort of setting, and this can be done in both astral and mental planes. "Astral," as talked about in Franks methods is actually a pre-mental plane where a person is phasing between a personal "plane" of existince.

Now this Next part is important: Frank Clearly stated he has not explored OBE much, astral as in defined in Roberts Definitions is directly "above" this, and as such the two are NOT the same thing.

As for spirit manifestations: yes, you often do see manifestations of your aspects when projecting. Even in "higher" planes this can still occur simply because time and space is not the same as we think of it here.

Basically, to get the most out of mixing systems together you have to remember that it is actually all one big universe. Some people seperate the universe into quadrants, and some people seperate the universe into types of planets and life. If you mix the two terminologies a person would think the two clash, when really they don't.

[Ascendant]

I'm looking for all the experienced people here to share their perspective on if the astral is really "the subconcious mind" or if it's really an "external" area of conciousness or whatever

I'm not experienced, but I have heard that the astral or ethereal organs of the body--the chakras or energy centers--are actually aspects of one's personality and mind. If so, then this might go along with what you're talking about.

[CFTraveler]

Well, if we're all part of one Universal Mind, then everything we perceive (or give importance to) in our lives are aspects of our subconscious mind- -At least in one of the many metaphysical theories out there- So why wouldn't the chakras be any different?
On the other hand, it has been noted that in most chakra systems there is an endocrine gland associated with each chakra (the pineal for the 3d eye, for example.)
Of course, if you believe that your astral body (or soul, or whatever you call it) gives form and function to your material body, then it makes perfect sense.
This is a comment on:

I'm not experienced, but I have heard that the astral or ethereal organs of the body--the chakras or energy centers--are actually aspects of one's personality and mind. If so, then this might go along with what you're talking about.

[question]

Thanks everyone for the responses. What I meant by "external conciousness" was, if I went into the "astral" and talked to someone, would it be a real person or being, or would it be an aspect of my own manifestations. Like those who state the "astral" is only "your mind", therefore you aren't talking to your friend or other spirits, you can't interact with "other" "people". You know what I mean? But a lot of it is starting to come together, thanks. I guess it really is all just terminology.

[Chris]

Thanks everyone for the responses. What I meant by "external conciousness" was, if I went into the "astral" and talked to someone, would it be a real person or being, or would it be an aspect of my own manifestations. Like those who state the "astral" is only "your mind", therefore you aren't talking to your friend or other spirits, you can't interact with "other" "people". You know what I mean? But a lot of it is starting to come together, thanks. I guess it really is all just terminology.

The phasing approach doesn't actually mean the astral only exists in your mind. It means external reality also exists in your mind. By this I mean, external reality is simply another point (locale/focus level) on the spectrum of consciousness. When we go OBE, we simply move our attention to another point on this spectrum of consiousness.
The reason the phasing model says we don't leave our body, is due to it's perception of what reality is. Reality is a mind construct based upon certain perceptions (inputs), so even if we move out of body, we are still within a mind construct - we have simply shifted our awarness slightly away from the 'reality' location of this spectrum.